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Topic: [LABCOIN] IPO [BTCT.CO] - Details/FAQ and Discussion (ASIC dev/sales/mining) - page 248. (Read 1079974 times)

vip
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1043
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Analogies do break down. I seriously doubt it's equivalent to manually porting a program from Java to C++, or vice versa - but even if it was there are still tools that can convert programs in one programming language into programs into another programming langue automatically. For example C++ to java converter and Java to C++ converter. People use tools that convert other languages to JavaScript all the time.

It certainly wouldn't be a last minute job, but if you were building your program from the start to work after being run through one of these converters (i.e. running it as a compiler step and ensuring that everything worked, including your test cases while developing your code) then you're not going to run into a problem.
Unless you're making performance critical ASIC chips. To use an example that you mentioned, CoffeeScript > Javascript often has a 15-25% performance penalty.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
OH please, stop talking  nonsense. what you get from the fab is not just the cell library, its also all the design rules and parameters. You can ignore the cell library if you want, like bitfury apparently did, but you cant do any meaningful physical design without adhering to the process rules.  How are you going to implement one  if you dont even know what layers the process has,  transistor width, channel length, and a gazillion other process specific parameters and constraints?

Huh, more of this crap?  

It's not a question of "not knowing" those things, it's a question of having that data for all of the potential feature sizes you want to target. I don't understand why you think you can only know one thing at once.

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Now it really sounds like you've never written software (or maybe aren't any good at it), because you can write software that runs on multiple architectures and operating systems really easily. You don't have to decide if you're writing a Windows program or Linux program before you start, even if you're using a language like C, C++.  You just use different libraries and have the compiler generate binaries for different CPUs.  

Yeah einstein, analogies break down. But if you want to continue it, HDL would be your pseudo code and what you get from the fab is the programming language and compiler. It may be less work to port your code from Java to C++  than starting from scratch, but it aint no last minute job either.
[/quote]

Analogies do break down. I seriously doubt it's equivalent to manually porting a program from Java to C++, or vice versa - but even if it was there are still tools that can convert programs in one programming language into programs into another programming langue automatically. For example C++ to java converter and Java to C++ converter. People use tools that convert other languages to JavaScript all the time.

It certainly wouldn't be a last minute job, but if you were building your program from the start to work after being run through one of these converters (i.e. running it as a compiler step and ensuring that everything worked, including your test cases while developing your code) then you're not going to run into a problem.

The only thing your "analogies" to software development are showing is that you don't know much about it.

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Right. I get it. Because whats really important here is not whether or not Labcoin could ever deploy their 65nm asic before next spring, its who of us knows more about chip design right? Well, as it turns out, it seems I was on the money about labcoins inability and you were not. Probably just a coincidence.

Huh?  They're late, and they're under powered.  But they're only a week late and they're only under-powered by 60%.  And their price is a lot lower then it was a week ago, reflecting reduced expectations.

Anyway, none of that has anything to do with whether or not you can design an IC in a way that's technology flexible.
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
"Even with 20TH or 50TH they won't be able to pay dividents as high as IPO." ?

I dont get that.. So the dividend per share should be IPO price? If that happens..

I mean with difficulty change taken into account, the cumulated dividents won't reach
a value for IPO investors to break even.
you do know that the IPO was to fund the development and production of new chips, right? Not related to the current production, which was prefunded?

Yes i know that. But many hope for nice returns in the short term and that's unrealistic.
I just wanted to point out, that this is a longterm investment, which won't gain investors
any profits before Q1-Q2 2014 at best.

Many here seem to think, that now that they are mining they will rake in the money, but
for that to happen there is much work to be done and much time needed.

As the dividends come in, the share price will increase until the dividend is ~ 30% APR.

I am not sure what you don't understand.
legendary
Activity: 1554
Merit: 1000
"Even with 20TH or 50TH they won't be able to pay dividents as high as IPO." ?

I dont get that.. So the dividend per share should be IPO price? If that happens..

I mean with difficulty change taken into account, the cumulated dividents won't reach
a value for IPO investors to break even.
you do know that the IPO was to fund the development and production of new chips, right? Not related to the current production, which was prefunded?

Yes i know that. But many hope for nice returns in the short term and that's unrealistic.
I just wanted to point out, that this is a longterm investment, which won't gain investors
any profits before Q1-Q2 2014 at best.

Many here seem to think, that now that they are mining they will rake in the money, but
for that to happen there is much work to be done and much time needed.

Im calculating a weekly return of ~1%, based on 10TH/re-investment of 25%/divided into 10,000,000 shares. Please put me right on those base figures if they are wrong.
237
sr. member
Activity: 264
Merit: 250
"Even with 20TH or 50TH they won't be able to pay dividents as high as IPO." ?

I dont get that.. So the dividend per share should be IPO price? If that happens..

I mean with difficulty change taken into account, the cumulated dividents won't reach
a value for IPO investors to break even.
you do know that the IPO was to fund the development and production of new chips, right? Not related to the current production, which was prefunded?

Yes i know that. But many hope for nice returns in the short term and that's unrealistic.
I just wanted to point out, that this is a longterm investment, which won't gain investors
any profits before Q1-Q2 2014 at best.

Many here seem to think, that now that they are mining they will rake in the money, but
for that to happen there is much work to be done and much time needed.
sr. member
Activity: 356
Merit: 255
"Even with 20TH or 50TH they won't be able to pay dividents as high as IPO." ?

I dont get that.. So the dividend per share should be IPO price? If that happens..

I mean with difficulty change taken into account, the cumulated dividents won't reach
a value for IPO investors to break even.
you do know that the IPO was to fund the development and production of new chips, right? Not related to the current production, which was prefunded?
237
sr. member
Activity: 264
Merit: 250
"Even with 20TH or 50TH they won't be able to pay dividents as high as IPO." ?

I dont get that.. So the dividend per share should be IPO price? If that happens..

I mean with difficulty change taken into account, the cumulated dividents won't reach
a value for IPO investors to break even.
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
"Even with 20TH or 50TH they won't be able to pay dividents as high as IPO." ?

I dont get that.. So the dividend per share should be IPO price? If that happens.. We will be rich?
237
sr. member
Activity: 264
Merit: 250
I'm glad i sold when i did. Had a nice profit, still some shares that i will hold,
but for now it doesn't look good. Even with 20TH or 50TH they won't be able
to pay dividents as high as IPO. And the way it seems we are far from being able
to sell any devices.

The 65nm will be late Q1 2014 at best, so this is a long term investment. If you
have the trust in Labcoin, that they will manage the problems with the chips they
have now and wil keep the timeline for 65nm it's a pretty good bet that you will profit
from shares, you bought cheap now, in Q2 2014.

I will hold the couple k shares i have left, because i always hold on to a small portion
of a stock after i made my profits.

Happy trading.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
New payment - 0.2359384 BTC

Slightly higher then the hourly ones coming in so far.

excess buildup from the scheduled payments.  I'm sure the hashrate on the site is correct. It's now back down to 760Gh/s. So they don't appear to have added any capacity yet.

To be honest, taking profits (if you have any) and limiting exposure to this stock is probably a good idea given all the craziness. I would rather have not sold, but having done so I don't feel like I really need to have as many shares as I did before, there's nothing else that looks like a good buy at this point so I'll probably just leave it as BTC and maybe re-buy if the price starts to crash again.

We really don't know if they'll be able to bring new hash power online, or how quickly that will happen.

That said, I thought the old warning was reasonable, but the new one he posted, with dire language and no context or explanation whatsoever at first was way over the top.
legendary
Activity: 1025
Merit: 1000
I want to make a request to those who frequent this thread: stop bragging about your day trading conquests. keep that for your wives pls.
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1040
That's why it makes zero sense to say they're locked into a process node size once they get their cell library. There's no reason why someone couldn't just get multiple cell libraries for different technologies and design and simulate against both of them.  They would only have to chose at the very last minute, before they sent their order into the fab, so long as they ensure the computer generated physical designs simulate properly across all the libraries.

OH please, stop talking  nonsense. what you get from the fab is not just the cell library, its also all the design rules and parameters. You can ignore the cell library if you want, like bitfury apparently did, but you cant do any meaningful physical design without adhering to the process rules.  How are you going to implement one  if you dont even know what layers the process has,  transistor width, channel length, and a gazillion other process specific parameters and constraints? You seem to think producing an FPGA bitsteam is the same as designing an asic. Just a 5 minute resynthesis, right? Well its not (unless you go with Hardcopy or similar structured asic). The difference between them is the physical design phase and that is NOT process agnostic nor "automatic". Its usually the most laborious step in designing a chip.

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Now it really sounds like you've never written software (or maybe aren't any good at it), because you can write software that runs on multiple architectures and operating systems really easily. You don't have to decide if you're writing a Windows program or Linux program before you start, even if you're using a language like C, C++.  You just use different libraries and have the compiler generate binaries for different CPUs.  

Yeah einstein, analogies break down. But if you want to continue it, HDL would be your pseudo code and what you get from the fab is the programming language and compiler (along with some sample code you may or may not use). It may be less work to port your code from Java to C++  than starting from scratch, but it aint no last minute job either.

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It didn't even occur to me to ask, because it didn't even occur to me that you might have valid point.

Right. I get it. Because whats really important here is not whether or not Labcoin could ever deploy their 65nm asic before next spring, its who of us knows more about chip design right? Well, as it turns out, it seems I was on the money about labcoins inability and you were not. Probably just a coincidence.
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100

I understand that.  I bolded the part about why it still needs fixed.  New buyers look at the contract and news posts can not supersede it.



Then the time for you to address that would have been when they made the news post.

Why didn't you?
bcz they never replied
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
New payment - 0.2359384 BTC

Slightly higher then the hourly ones coming in so far.
sr. member
Activity: 782
Merit: 258
Betking.io - Best Bitcoin Casino

I understand that.  I bolded the part about why it still needs fixed.  New buyers look at the contract and news posts can not supersede it.



Then the time for you to address that would have been when they made the news post.

Why didn't you?

Because he was and still is making bank on this security.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250

I understand that.  I bolded the part about why it still needs fixed.  New buyers look at the contract and news posts can not supersede it.



Then the time for you to address that would have been when they made the news post.

Why didn't you?
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1006
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I read the contract and to me it means they'll hold 30% indefinitely.  (IE, their profit comes from dividends, thus keeping them motivated.)

Really?  I remember them specifically saying that was not the case, and that they would sell up to 25% of their shares prior to the first 6 months.

Specifically in the contract, or specifically elsewhere?  The contract is the basis.  You can't put something in there and then post elsewhere "we didn't really mean that."

Either they meant that they'd hold them indefinitely, or they meant that they would not hold them indefinitely.  What purpose is there in the statement that they'd hold X% if as soon as the IPO completes they can just list those at will?  Thus my interpretation was that they meant indefinitely.

Lol, don't worry about it. I'm sure someone would have noticed.  It shouldn't have been posted without any context, and I think selling was the right move.  I still made a pretty big proft overall, and bought about half way back in

There are hundreds of pages of context here.

Yeah, it was in the thread.  Around the time of their IPO. I'm not sure if it was the Labcoin account or TheSwede.  But basically they said they felt that they should be able to sell some shares since they put in so much work on the project, but wouldn't sell any more then 25% in the first year. 

I understand that.  I bolded the part about why it still needs fixed.  New buyers look at the contract and news posts can not supersede it.

It's probably not a hard fix to make.

I have to go offline for a while now.  Will try to follow up on this tomorrow.

Cheers.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
I read the contract and to me it means they'll hold 30% indefinitely.  (IE, their profit comes from dividends, thus keeping them motivated.)

Really?  I remember them specifically saying that was not the case, and that they would sell up to 25% of their shares prior to the first 6 months.

Specifically in the contract, or specifically elsewhere?  The contract is the basis.  You can't put something in there and then post elsewhere "we didn't really mean that."

Either they meant that they'd hold them indefinitely, or they meant that they would not hold them indefinitely.  What purpose is there in the statement that they'd hold X% if as soon as the IPO completes they can just list those at will?  Thus my interpretation was that they meant indefinitely.

Lol, don't worry about it. I'm sure someone would have noticed.  It shouldn't have been posted without any context, and I think selling was the right move.  I still made a pretty big proft overall, and bought about half way back in

There are hundreds of pages of context here.

Yeah, it was in the thread.  Around the time of their IPO. I'm not sure if it was the Labcoin account or TheSwede.  But basically they said they felt that they should be able to sell some shares since they put in so much work on the project, but wouldn't sell any more then 25% in the first year.  


EDIT: here is the news on their news page:

Quote
News

Regarding shares owned by the Labcoin founders and developers.

Due to inquiries LABCOIN has received from investors, the founders and developers involved in the LABCOIN project has decided to voluntarily lock in 75% of all shares owned by the LABCOIN core team for 12-months.

This means that no founder or developer owning shares in LABCOIN will sell an excess of 25% of their shares for at least 365 days from today's date.

This is being publicly announced to set to rest any concern that the LABCOIN team has any interest in liquidating their holdings in the project.

Q: Why not lock in 100%?
A: Simply because we feel that it is only fair to allow the members of the LABCOIN team that wishes to sell smaller portions of their ownership should they need some Bitcoin for any unforeseen expense during the first year of operations.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
I read the contract and to me it means they'll hold 30% indefinitely.  (IE, their profit comes from dividends, thus keeping them motivated.)

Really?  I remember them specifically saying that was not the case, and that they would sell up to 25% of their shares prior to the first 6 months.

Specifically in the contract, or specifically elsewhere?  The contract is the basis.  You can't put something in there and then post elsewhere "we didn't really mean that."

Either they meant that they'd hold them indefinitely, or they meant that they would not hold them indefinitely.  What purpose is there in the statement that they'd hold X% if as soon as the IPO completes they can just list those at will?  Thus my interpretation was that they meant indefinitely.



You might find the information you're looking for here-  https://btct.co/security/LABCOIN

Look in the news tab at the item posted 2 months ago.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
In other news: This thread has passed the ASICMINER thread in number of replies and is now that largest thread on the Securities forum.

At least LABCOIN is marketleader in something Smiley

Is there an echo in here?   Grin
I'm just slow Sad
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