Topic: ₿ LIST ₿ Bitcointalk's ESCROW providers: Ranking & Blacklist ☠ Avoid Scam ☠ - page 7. (Read 43570 times)

Interesting.  I'm glad I got out of handling escrow when I did.  After reading your example, I can see how it would be an interesting court case if there was effectively a contract that says to send to a particular address, and then before release of escrow a buyer claims that he no longer has exclusive control of that address.

I'm glad I never encountered that.

I suppose as long as both parties agreed, it would be safe to modify the refund address.  However, if the selling party disappears it might become impossible to get their agreement.

Another option might be to state in the agreement that the refund will be sent to any address requested by the buyer once the refund conditions have been met.  As long as you can confirm that the person providing the refund address is the same person that agreed to the buyer side of the agreement, that might work properly?

I never understood why people feel the need of having a stacked address and why it means so much.

For example I installed only at very first touch of bitcoin the qt but i kept it for one day only.

I never signed a message even if I did thousands of transactions over time. I understand the need of a signed message but I don't find it mandatory.

Regarding refund address, for small ammounts I always use poloniex it has only 0.0001 fee so it is perfect for under 0.05 transaction but If i send this ammount to ognasty and the deal with the buyer dissapear where will do the refund?

I was always afraid of this kind of moments. I think it happend one or two years ago and as escrow I used Dabs.

Since that moment the only escrow that I am accepting is bitrated.com . Simple and efficient.

The buyer sends to you a refund address that matches his send address and has control of it.
The deal dies  and the buyer needs a refund.

You go to return the to the designated refund address.  
The buyer lost control of the address.  It can happen and be real and legit.

What do you the escrow do?

If the buyer has a way of proving his identity  do you send to a different refund address?

I can tell you most USA laws  would favor the buyer and the escrow  should send the coin to the new address.



The case with isoneguy and OgNasty

The buyer sends to you a funds with a coinbase address that he does not have  control of it.
The deal dies  and the buyer needs a refund.

You go to return the to the designated refund address.  
The buyer has  no control of the address.  It can happen and be real and legit.

What do you the escrow do?

If the buyer has a way of proving his identity  do you send to a different refund address?

I can tell you most USA laws  would favor the buyer and the escrow  should send the coin to the new address.


This opens up a big can of worms for escrow.
I had a looser system then you or OG

OG   explained the exploit  scammers are trying  and his rule 2 stops the exploit  as does your method.

But  if shit happens and it does sometimes the buyer can lose control of the refund address.

 The escrow  faces a choice  to alter refund address or not. isoneguy  did multiple sales with me  and I have his home address with my records in this case  my mediation would have worked.{i think}  But scammers can do a clever long term scam  with 3 or 4 legit sales  to establish  that a shipping address is good.  

Then create  the isoneguy  vs OG   setup for a large refund  say 10-15 coins.   So I do understand why OG wants rule 2 to stand  .  Just like your rules  if you enforce them it stops the scam.
But it that buyer  truly had lost control  of an address  and  can prove it.  The escrow agent gets put into a spot.
  

I for one no longer think  I can do escrow  and fully protect

The escrow agent
The Buyer
The Seller


This  address is my main address

https://blockchain.info/address/1JdC6Xg3ajT3rge3FgPNSYYFpmf53Vbtje

it is a blockchain.info  hotwallet

I have control of the keys as I imported it from core  years ago.

I send 50 coins to OG  for a large purchase.  Someone breaks into my home and gains control of the wallet.

The deal falls through  I show police reports to OG  and other proof of whom I am.  OG follows rule 2. Sends to a compromised wallet. I have a court case.

change and I did deal with  Danny H  followed his rules

even used my core wallet  that has multiple  hdd backups.

the wallet gets compromised  due to a natural disaster.  I am in NJ so Hurricane Sandy

I proof to Danny this happened he sends to core wallet address effectively burning the money.
I take him to court  he could lose.

So as I see it for now I won't be doing escrow.

As  I do not have a solution  for the issues I see here.

Look  with isoneguy vs og   they both got a bit stubborn (I think)  , but frankly  I am glad it happened as I see issues

in providing escrow I did not see. Possibly  I won't ever do escrow again.

 I do not want to get stuck  or have to stick someone.

Back when I had the time to handle escrow, my method was:

• Generate a unique address for the escrow (do not provide it to the transacting parties yet)
• Ask the paying party to provide a refund address
• Ask the paid party to provide a release address
• Ask either party to provide the terms of the agreement
• Write up an agreement that describes the terms, includes the escrow address, refund address, and release address
• Send the agreement to both parties to be accepted
• Make it clear that escrow should NOT be funded until I acknowledge that BOTH parties have accepted the agreement
• Make it clear that NOTHING should be provided by the paid party until the escrow address has been funded with at least 1 confirmation

Is there a flaw in this method that I'm overlooking?

I reviewed this case and it appears that OgNasty rule 2 which can prevent scams and is needed to be enforced has a secondary flaw. 
Which may or may not have occurred in this case.
As I have enough facts to see problems on both sides were possible.
I see that Og has the rule 2 that he enforces to stop scammers  and it does stop scammers,but  an innocent can get caught up in the rule.  This is why
I offered to mediate and was turned down. i.e. I thought isoneguy was an innocent victim .  I believed my solution would have worked.

I understand both parties positions  here  and this is one of the reasons I won't be doing escrows. Since I do not want to use a rule like ognasty's number 2 but if I fail to enforce a rule like it I can be scammed.

I see a flaw in my method that can cause an exploit against me
I see a flaw in OgNasty's method that can cause hardship to an innocent person.
I will try to develop a better method of escrow.  Better then oG's and better then mine.

until then I won't escrow anymore.
I do have 1 outstanding escrow  and will finish that one.

If I figure out a new method that protects everyone I will start again.

To everyone if you use OG Nasty be sure to fully understand his rule 2.  If you do not control the account you send coin  and need a refund you may not get it back.

To the ignorant if you send from coinbase  you may not get a refund.  As OgNasty will refund to the btc addy it come from.

A coinbase send is not from a btc addy you own or control.

so a refund back to it goes to coin bases general accounts  since coins= base has many customers it could take weeks to get it transferred to your coin base account.

You appear to be mistaken.

His payment back to you can be clearly seen in the blockchain:
https://blockchain.info/tx/53fc3f154b358609a4147db3cda09b6be040ce26acdc38443fd5f88d055d20b4

I understand that, according to your your own words, you have a mental issue:



Perhaps you should take that into consideration before throwing out unfounded accusations?

I would like to point out that OGnasty should be removed from this list as he's not to be trusted.

He still owes me .25BTC from a failed escrow he provided.

I am Suspending escrow services  for the rest of July  2017  and at least for the 1st week in August. 2017

Yeah  anything not tangible I pretty much avoid.
No so much that a gift card is low cost  say a 25 dollar card.
But I can list 6 ways for a buyer or seller to cheat with a gift card and as the escrow I am stuck.
I prefer a tangible good and if both sides point fingers at each other I can do some research as to which one lies.

It's already there (right below the image):

Because it is hard to escrow a trade of gift card.

1. Seller can use it before buyer does.
2. Buyer can use it and say seller used it before he could.

In both cases, a forged proof can be shown. Escrow won't be able to do anything once that happens. It is hard to "successfully" escrow such trades If there is a way to change codes* of a gift card, escrow can do their job successfully. AFAIK, there isn't any such service!

Edit: It maybe confusing when I say "change codes". In simple words, redeem gift card send by seller, escrow creates new one and send to buyer. You can't do this with Amazon. Is there any websites which supports this?

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If you want to conduct a small transaction and there isn't any escrow, I can do it. For large sums, I am not doing it until my existing issue of Bitcoin/PGP address is solved. You can use my service as a last resort, but I doubt there would be anyone except who knows that I really am MZ, to trust me with large sums.

Thanks for  updating list. Suggestion : Would be good to post below chart on pg1 of thread an Update Date e.g. LAST UPDATED : 24th June 2017

Anyone out there help with Escrow on AGC e-gift card for btc at a rate of 20%
I’m selling for AGC $38 & want $30 btc (0.011)
Seems many Escrows don’t do gift cards & not open to 0.01 trades

«UPDATE»

Newest changes:

↓monbux has been removed from the list because he was unable to reply our PMs confirming his Escrow service status and operations since February, 2017;

↓Zepher no longer offers escrow service and is out of the Crypto Escrow Team;

↑Seccour joined as Escrow agent.

List and all scores refreshed...

I've talked to him a few weeks ago. By that time he said he was still doing business.

I'm gonna check that out though...

Thanks for listing us!

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I do have question regarding John (John K.). I was under the impression that he stopped being active/doing escrow a while ago. Did something change that I have missed?

Members Lauda and minejones removed from the list as they joined a group called "Crypto Escrow Team" which is now listed.

All new data from other participants got updated too.

Good deals for everybody.

Thank you  and I will mention this for security purposes:

  I only use this address

1JdC6Xg3ajT3rge3FgPNSYYFpmf53Vbtje

https://blockchain.info/address/1JdC6Xg3ajT3rge3FgPNSYYFpmf53Vbtje


which has been in my profile for years
https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/philipma1957-64507

I do take altcoins if we need to  do that for a deal.

That delay while creating the thread might really happen. That's why I'm gonna set (2) as weight for that criteria if it's inserted in the rating calculation (and if I'm convinced it's worth the task)...no more, no less...

Nevertheless I'm still thinking about it as there might be candidates with several threads spread around the forum and that's not good to keep track.

edit: scores updated again. philipma1957 also joined the group!

P.s. PGP signed messages option changed in order to support staked address' signed messages possibility. The requirement for reputation thread has been "dismissed"...

The fee is depends from how much the transaction (now it isn't, they already set how much min fee without asking more (except the buyer give more by donation))

There were good ones, but they ask for more fee