Topic: Lives vs Economy -- sad truth - page 6. (Read 1049 times)

Not all of us can afford the hospital bills once we're admitted to a certain hospital due to Covid-19 because some of us doesn't have any work during this pandemic. Most people who got rejected in the hospitals are poor people, those who can't afford to get medical attention.

In reality, poor families are the most prone to this pandemic, they can't even sustain their needs during this lockdown and they are only relying on the financial assistance provided by the government. It doesn't mean that if you are a good worker, you are the priority of the hospital, it is not like that.

The only thing that still matters is money, if you don't have money, you will have a hard time to survive this Covid-19 pandemic.

That's saddest reality that we are facing right now knowing that we have all affected by this pandemic. Even a high class society down to average people, younger to older are possible to get infected by CORONA VIRUS. This shouldn't be  neglected by every individual. Not because his/she  is  older it  doesn't mean that they have the no right to get an attention.

Yep, a decision has to be made in the event of scarcity.

However, it's completely different than what OP said, negative selections based on sole age is discrimination, and has no moral ground. If the decision is based on the severity or when the patient's condition is not improving, then there is a compelling justification behind it.

The problem with OP's story is that he didn't know the exact condition of the "first patient." The phrase "looks the same" doesn't mean it is really equal per se.

If the decision was because of the young man's condition (more severe or have other diseases), then it can be justified. But if not, then I'm siding with OP.

Not true. Don't generalized it just because of the story you shared about your friend.

Based on your story, I don't see how it was linked to the country's economy just because your friend's aunt didn't prioritize by the hospital as she was 47 years old. There are really cases like that wherein people are not being accommodated by the hospital even before the pandemic virus so just imagine how worst it is now to the point that they can't entertain all even that's an emergency.

If you have concerns, then complain to the authority on how that hospital treats your aunt's friend.

It's no secret in cases of medical rationing (as with too many patients and not enough ventilators) that patients deemed less likely to die are given priority:


https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2005689

Assessment of mortality risk in these cases is probably not directly based on age, but we know the two are obviously linked. I'm sure some public health care systems are also cruder than others in how they ration medical goods and services.

Hmm, do you have any links or proofs though? It doesn't make sense for hospital to prioritised, at least that's what we think of. Maybe the pandemic has really change how they perceived or prioritise on how to save or not? But again, it doesn't really makes a lot of sense to me and hospitals/doctors/nurse are going against their sworn oath? I'm still baffle though and I hope that this is completely false.

I ever read about this article, an opinion about the moral dilemma between lives and also economy.
Actually, that is not supposed to be a moral dilemma and it should not be a choice. There must be a chance fr every patient to get a similar priority, or even it cannot be, it should be classified into some patient conditions.

What happened to everybody's health infected by the COvid-19 virus may be different for each other. Some countries may apply the priority in some certain condition. The reason is probably the lack of hospitals, medical personnel, and also limited equipment, facilities, and infrastructure to handle the patients with COVID-19. This lead should take some priority. (it is done aside if there is any conspiration or not, I don't really know about it).

The priority is decided if the country experienced the top of the Covid-19 curve, high patients with COVID-19 daily, and also limited medical services and personnel. But, the priorities should be:

1. The fist layer patient:
The first layer patient should be paid attention and get the first priority in certain conditions. The COVID-19 patients are such as patients with old age, patients in critical condition, health problems, women in pregnancy, and also cognitive abilities. They should immediately get the most preferred treatment area. Because their immune power is very low and they require special treatment, it cannot be juxtaposed with other patients, and it cannot be just independent isolation or self-quarantine. They need serious treatment by certain medical equipment that probably the hospital only has it in limited numbers. They must probably be treated in a certain room also.

2. Patients infected by coronavirus with lower risks.
I don't say that the patient has a lower risk in general, but, it means that the patients still have a chance to get better immune to a certain treatment, but they are not experiencing serious or critical conditions. In this case, they are infected by the virus, cannot do self-isolation because of some factors, having rather good enough immune, they are probably treated in the hospital to get certain vitamin or other treatment in order to help them increase their immune and they still need to be monitored in order to make their condition not getting worse.

3. The patients infected by viruses with good immune and available for self-isolation.
In some cases, the patients have good immune but they are infected by the virus. In addition, if they can do self-isolation in 14 days, 't need to get treated in the hospital. they can do self-quarantine in a certain place, having doo exercises in a fresh air environment, good nutrition, mental, and also supports from other people around. In my country, there are many patients that do this, but please note that the patients must be also still monitored by the medical personnel in order to know the progress of their condition.

However, how is it about in a country with very high daily infected patients but limited medical services and equipment? How is there are thousands of cases in a day and hospitals can no longer treat them all? Should it be prioritized by the chance of the lives? This is what actually makes a dilemma by some countries.
This is so sad to know about it, but if they do not have any choice again? I know that it should not be done in this bad treatment, that is why their government try to take the problem solving without sacrificing patients with corona, although they may need a certain time to do that.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/31/us/coronavirus-covid-triage-rationing-ventilators.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/12/world/europe/12italy-coronavirus-health-care.html

The government prioritizes the economy and wealth over their people, they are not God even God let the people to die if God is real.

People from all ages are getting affected now due to the mutation but one with weaker immune system has more mortality rate so they keep dying more it doesn't mean the government let them die without doing anything.It also happens because they can't do anything, we trusted them and pay taxes but it is not enough to save you guys.

This is dilema we all have to face. Yes, the virus is still here, it's also getting stronger in some countries but we need to find the way to live with it. That means that our lives, economies and businesses need to go on. If we stop everything then we'll have bigger consequences than from virus itself. Think of possible unemployment, poverty and hunger too. That might lead to even worse political and society crisis in the whole world.
We need to protect older and weaker population but we can't stop our lives because of the virus.

Absolutely, It is very frustrating and sad at the same time but I understand where this decision is coming from. This is where we need to choose for a greater good, would u save an old man who can't do a work to pay for taxes or a young man who is starting the life in the beginning. All lives matter, but our future is at stake too. This is very hard for every one.

I've already read this story in Japan, I didn't think it would come to us as real situation. Immoral as most of us will think, but it's quite a good reasoning tho. Still I'm still sad for my friend.

Perhaps this is the sad truth. Doctors have rules in order to save people in emergency cases. It is unfortunate, but older people will be saved in the last turn. This is very sad to understand. The virus takes the lives of people of different ages. Young people have strong immunity and this help them overcome the virus. Maybe saving young people requires less effort and they have more chances to survive. This is very important for the economy.

I think that is not the case in my country, and what you talking must be about country where money is more important than lives. That’s really sad one. Here in my country, the old patients are treated with at most care and prioritised. The economy is not disturbed with what age group is on death bed but it is all about nations good will to keep their economic stream keep running. The industries, small to big scale businesses all are running here with full fledge now. We seem to coming on normalised track once again.

Our oldies are still working if they have strong will power. ;-)

Well, it's completely immoral to prioritize on people we think are important at the detriment of others. Things shouldn't work that way in a Godly & moral society. Doing things based on our own human understanding/wisdom, and not based on what is good/right is what is currently leading us to the pit.
The old people should be agreeing to sacrifice themselves for us without pressure, not us deliberately and without their consent sacrificing them for our sake

I know you guys would ask me a proof which I cannot give, this is quite an assumption after a friend of mine experienced it. The corona virus has already infected a lot, the hospitals and other facilities are crowded.

One of my friend, had his aunt (47 yrs. old) infected by the virus, don't worry I did not contacted him physically we're just talking on the phone and he told me about it. This is how the hospitals deal with the patients, of course they would not broadcast it to television, coz it is very unlawful but this is a fact. One of the nurses told them just to standby though his aunt is having difficulty in breathing ( it is really scary ) coz they still need to serve the "first patients", until there was a young man who has been rushed that looks the same as his aunt, the difficulty in breathing, being brought to ER.

We haven't talk for a day, but I know he is being quarantined too.  


The dilemma between lives and economy is real.

Unfortanetly the oldest and poorest part of the population is hit the hardest with corona. And now with most countries starting their economies again, the death numbers will probably rise again.

Just look at Sweden, they never really managed to impose a lock down and have much higher fatality rates than the other nordic countries. Which most of their deaths being from the retired population. We should be taking better care of the older people than this. 

500 years ago you were very happy if you managed to live 40 years.

Those that have money will always have priorities and if they are 1 years old or 100 years old. People that died for covid-19 mostly already had bad medical conditions and would most likely die in next couple of years.  Bigger problem I see are people that got infected by covid-19 and survived, but their lungs got permanently damaged. They will suffer in next decade or in next decades. People seems to forget those.

Is this your assumption, or you have proof?

The common reason why a person rejected from healthcare service (in bad healthcare system countries) is that he cannot pay or the hospital is terrible (cannot deal with Covid).

I don't know what happened to other countries and whether this issue is true that corona patients over the age of 40 don't get more attention from hospitals..  I'm grateful hospitals in my country still receive and treat corona patients over the age of 40 years like other patients..

"The issue of Depopulation" for people over the age of 40 is still a conspiracy, there is no reason to remove them from the world, Do those over the age of 40 make the world run out of food or drink??  my parents are currently over 50 years old, they are very valuable to me, I love them very much and they don't bother the country because they don't ask for food or drinks from the country..

There is no priority in saving an individual life -age,social status, background- give a proof if you have one that shows there is, health workers are under oath to save life's and every life matters, the world is concerned about the elderly ones at this pandemic time -although if do the basic things, get regular exercise, eat healthy there immune can be strong-. There are malls/stores in the US that have special shopping times for elderly citizens alone.

A vaccine might never come or might come late, what our defense would be is our immunity,- old or young-.

 As we are dealing with the pandemic, the virus disease is prone to old citizens they have a weaker immune system than an average person and young adults although we also have a lot of cases of them too but there are more people who ages 40+ in the tallied cases. The sad truth is that some of them are not getting attention from the hospitals, why? because they prioritize a person based on its age, why? because it would be more worthy if you save a productive person over an old and weak person. The government is really doing this for the economy in the future days.

We really have to deal with deaths, it is part of living