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Topic: Should a bitcoinica clone be put online ? - page 3. (Read 7547 times)

Bro
full member
Activity: 218
Merit: 100
No.



this. the hell with bitcoinica and all its progeny
anu
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
RepuX - Enterprise Blockchain Protocol
No.

Exactly - I really enjoy the price stability of Bitcoin since Bitcoinica is gone. These days, Bitcoin can actually be used for payment.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1008
1davout
You are one of a handful of people I would trust with non-trivial amounts of Bitcoin.  Cannot quite remALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD
FTFY
member
Activity: 93
Merit: 10
No.

hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Wat
I picked up the domain Litecoinica.com just recently, and I think its a worthwhile idea to not only resurrect Bitcoinica, but to do something like it for Litecoin as well.

lol well played sir.
full member
Activity: 134
Merit: 100
Would it be possible to hold bitcoins and use them to trade in a way like how blockchain.info has their wallet service setup? This would put everyone who deposits money in control of their own money in case the site goes down. If it is hacked, the private keys could be revealed so you would need to do the interaction with the wallet client-side. The downsides to this are that if the site goes down, the money in open positions (which would have to be moved from the clients wallet to a communal one) could be lost, and it would lead to massive bloat on the blockchain. To be effective (if ignoring bloat) the system would have to rely on 0 confirmation transactions.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
RUM AND CARROTS: A PIRATE LIFE FOR ME
I picked up the domain Litecoinica.com just recently, and I think its a worthwhile idea to not only resurrect Bitcoinica, but to do something like it for Litecoin as well.
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
With the leak of the code I'm asking myself whether it would be a good idea to setup a bitcoinica clone.

...

Thoughts ?

You are one of a handful of people I would trust with non-trivial amounts of Bitcoin.  Cannot quite remember the reasons why though.  After a few hours of piddling with Bitcoinica I lost interest.  If I do such gambling again, I have enough stock to risk my own funds and not pay the premium so that's what I would probably do (vs. using some Forex style platform.

As for trying to make Bitcoinica's victims whole, I see utterly no point (and I'm one to the extent that I planned, BTW.)  I'd rather see MyBitcoin folks receive a little relief as they were just trying to find a convenient way to store their wealth vs. trying to capitalize on one another's misfortunes.  It seems to me to be much more in the interest of Bitcoin to designate any profits toward future legal and lobbying efforts and that sort of thing.  Were that happening reliably and transparently, I might be tempted back into the casino should I find myself with some time and money to kill.

legendary
Activity: 2128
Merit: 1074
Because it would generate profits
Maybe profits maybe losses. Now that the previosly secret algorithm is in the open traders could tune their strategies off-line with no capital layout. It isn't immediately obvious that there is no algorithm that could push the resurrected Bitcoinica into red.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
How is it not obvious to you? Do you not see all these people waiting for their money?
Well, partially. I understand that losing money is not cool, but how deploying a clone of that system can return their funds ?

You just don't get it do you? What I was trying to get across is that your exchange with regards to features it offers is probably equally appealing as was Bitcoinca and that if you really want to entice more people to use your service, new and better features aren't what you should be thinking about given the current post Bitcoinca fiasco environment but rather transparency, security and contractual guarantees.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1008
1davout
How is it not obvious to you? Do you not see all these people waiting for their money?
Well, partially. I understand that losing money is not cool, but how deploying a clone of that system can return their funds ?
Because it would generate profits that could be, at least partially, allocated to the compensation of the victims.
That was my original idea.

I'm not sure however that I like the way Bitcoinica actually works (based on my first analysis of the actual matching code see http://pastie.org/4257541) but the reverse engineering task is not finished yet.
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500
How is it not obvious to you? Do you not see all these people waiting for their money?
Well, partially. I understand that losing money is not cool, but how deploying a clone of that system can return their funds ?
hero member
Activity: 674
Merit: 500
What is the main difference between Bitcoinica and other trading platforms for you ?

Recently we finally opened futures trading on http://icbit.se , so I would like to know what features are missing there.

...
Options & Futures are derivatives (offered at icbit.se).
The Bitcoinica platform offers margin not derivatives.


In addition to the above comments, I would like to state one very important fact which makes futures trading platform like icbit.se superior to a bucket-shop marginal trading one like Bitcoinica:
When you trade futures, the market is open and decentralized. There is no single point which calculates spread and decides what price you can close your position at. The market decides, its hundreds and thousands participants. It's way more honest and reliable method. Everyone could be market maker and earn money by providing liquidity to the market.

So why recreate a clone of something which is a "previous step" already?

As for margin. Trading with leverage is an option but not a requirement. Margin trading must be used with caution, if you're provided with 1:4 leverage it doesn't mean you have to buy 4 BTC having only 1 BTC in your account, otherwise you risk loosing all money due to a margin call situation.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1008
1davout
I understand the new Bitcoinica owners found so many holes in the current code that they most likely decided to not to maintain and and instead develop a new platform from scratch. Unfortunately Bitcoinica came down before the new platform was ready.
The more I read the code, the more I see it is very very messy. I think the reason they'd want to rewrite it from scratch would have been for maintenability, not security.
hero member
Activity: 761
Merit: 500
Mine Silent, Mine Deep
Aren't copyright notices required or else information is in the public domain? If there are no notices then from my limited knowledge I would guess it was in the public domain legally.

According to US law...

Q. Do I have to register with your office to be protected?
A. No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section “Copyright Registration.”

From http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html
I'd love a C&D notice, I'd publish it here so people know on which door they should knock to get their money back :D

I like the way you think! :)

Although I doubt they would actually serve a C&D letter. I understand the new Bitcoinica owners found so many holes in the current code that they most likely decided to not to maintain and and instead develop a new platform from scratch. Unfortunately Bitcoinica came tumbling down before the new platform was ready. (not that it would have mattered because their non-code related security practices were lacking/non-existent)
donator
Activity: 980
Merit: 1000
Yeah, let's do it with your liability  Cheesy
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
What is the main difference between Bitcoinica and other trading platforms for you ?

Recently we finally opened futures trading on http://icbit.se , so I would like to know what features are missing there.

How is it not obvious to you? Do you not see all these people waiting for their money? Do you not see all these people who put their trust into an organisation getting burned?

Can you really not figure out that the feature you're missing is transparency and security and some sort of contractual obligation?

In addition to hazek's comment, I would like to add:

Options & Futures are derivatives (offered at icbit.se).
The Bitcoinica platform offers margin not derivatives.

As far as I know, margin is required to trade derivatives but derivatives aren't required to use margin.
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1090
I believe margin trading offers the best means (so far) to establish a bank offering interest on deposits for the Bitcoin community. Where the establishment's profit marging is (margin interest rate) - (deposit interest rate). Notice from the posts on Bitcoinica threads how people were using the site as a bank.

Yes, I agree, I brought that up in a "Shorting" altcoins thread in the altcoins section of the forum.

-MarkM-
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
Quote from: davout

Pros :
  • There is demand for gambling margin trading

I like what you did there.  Grin

Margin trading itself isn't gambling in my opinion (yes, we can argue this forever), I like to use certain references when I have doubts:
1. The Prudent Man Rule: Harvard College v Amory (1830) 26 Mass (9 Pick) 446
2. Internal Revenue Code (IRC): Section 165(d),income-tax deductions of gambling losses.
3. Various US Federal & State laws distinguishing games of chance versus games of skill.

With that out of the way...

I believe margin trading offers the best means (so far) to establish a bank offering interest on deposits for the Bitcoin community. Where the establishment's profit marging is (margin interest rate) - (deposit interest rate). Notice from the posts on Bitcoinica threads how people were using the site as a bank.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
What is the main difference between Bitcoinica and other trading platforms for you ?

Recently we finally opened futures trading on http://icbit.se , so I would like to know what features are missing there.

How is it not obvious to you? Do you not see all these people waiting for their money? Do you not see all these people who put their trust into an organisation getting burned?

Can you really not figure out that the feature you're missing is transparency and security and some sort of contractual obligation?
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