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Topic: Ideas for more efficient distribution of money? - page 3. (Read 13291 times)

hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
To distribute money more efficiently all you need to do is ensure that 'mining' (the process itself, not its results) has a net positive effect (involves expenditure on renewable goods and services) instead of a net negative one (energy waste). It's simple as that.

(quoting myself here...)

OK it's not quite as simple as that, because you have to factor in time horizons and the early adoption phase, in which coin production costs are marginal (thus not allowing for efficient distribution). With BTC the design was such that a great deal of coins were produced during the early phase for a very low cost (the first 1,000,000 BTC were mined for a cost of what it would take to mine less than 1 BTC today, roughly speaking).

More efficient distribution would thus require (aside from finding a way to make mining a net positive process) a shorter early adoption phase in which production costs are trivial, so that we could arrive at the point where mining produces tangible positive effects more quickly. However, the early adoption phase should still last long enough and be lucrative enough for the coin to gain popularity.  

Efficiency in the context of this thread is the rate (relative to the maximum possible rate) of adoption of the currency as a currency and not as an investment asset. Very few people in normal times (before sovereign debt crisis safe haven demand) considered holding dollars long-term (in your mattress, i.e paying no interest) as an investment. A hallmark feature of a currency is you rarely concern yourself with its exchange value.

I am asserting that the challenge is to design an upstart crypto-currency which has enough near-term investment appeal to drive excitement and investment adoption, while simultaneously driving synergistic adoption for spending which eventually subsumes the investment gains.

Some here are challenging my assertion.
So you want both a currency that has the hallmark feature of not being concerned with exchange rate (B) and a currency that has investment appeal (A)?  Are you sure you aren't mixing up currency as a unit of exchange and wealth/savings/investments as saved capital surplus?

Realize that A comes before B. B is the goal, where at which time A cashes out without ponzi crash, because B supplies demand. This is accomplished by raising transactions to a very high level early with PC mining.
legendary
Activity: 896
Merit: 1006
First 100% Liquid Stablecoin Backed by Gold
To distribute money more efficiently all you need to do is ensure that 'mining' (the process itself, not its results) has a net positive effect (involves expenditure on renewable goods and services) instead of a net negative one (energy waste). It's simple as that.

(quoting myself here...)

OK it's not quite as simple as that, because you have to factor in time horizons and the early adoption phase, in which coin production costs are marginal (thus not allowing for efficient distribution). With BTC the design was such that a great deal of coins were produced during the early phase for a very low cost (the first 1,000,000 BTC were mined for a cost of what it would take to mine less than 1 BTC today, roughly speaking).

More efficient distribution would thus require (aside from finding a way to make mining a net positive process) a shorter early adoption phase in which production costs are trivial, so that we could arrive at the point where mining produces tangible positive effects more quickly. However, the early adoption phase should still last long enough and be lucrative enough for the coin to gain popularity.  

Efficiency in the context of this thread is the rate (relative to the maximum possible rate) of adoption of the currency as a currency and not as an investment asset. Very few people in normal times (before sovereign debt crisis safe haven demand) considered holding dollars long-term (in your mattress, i.e paying no interest) as an investment. A hallmark feature of a currency is you rarely concern yourself with its exchange value.

I am asserting that the challenge is to design an upstart crypto-currency which has enough near-term investment appeal to drive excitement and investment adoption, while simultaneously driving synergistic adoption for spending which eventually subsumes the investment gains.

Some here are challenging my assertion.
So you want both a currency that has the hallmark feature of not being concerned with exchange rate and a currency that has investment appeal?  Are you sure you aren't mixing up currency as a unit of exchange and wealth/savings/investments as saved capital surplus?
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
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Sorry I did not write that. The only point I wrote in this thread was fiat is ponzi because it is based on the people's confidence (consent) to be governed.

Ok then, what about the inference from your own logic showing that fiat can't be ponzi which I wrote in one of my posts that you successfully ignored?
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
"Talk is cheap, show me the code"-- Linus Torvalds.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
So now you come up with memory lapses... Splendid!

Any you? You remember what you claim was written obviously since you are accusing me?

What me? You wrote a post answering me and someone else, you quoted this sentence "Whereas in a Ponzi scheme no real component in the underlying "asset" is present..." from my previous post, saying in reply that "fractional reserve banking is also a Ponzi scheme because banks create credit out of nothing and if there is a bank-run the system would crash"...

It seems that I remember what you wrote better than you yourself do!

Sorry I did not write that. The only point I wrote in this thread was fiat is ponzi because it is based on the people's confidence (consent) to be governed.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
So now you come up with memory lapses... Splendid!

Any you? You remember what you claim was written obviously since you are accusing me?

What me? You wrote a post answering me and someone else, you quoted this sentence "Whereas in a Ponzi scheme no real component in the underlying "asset" is present..." from my previous post, saying in reply that "fractional reserve banking is also a Ponzi scheme because banks create credit out of nothing and if there is a bank-run the system would crash"...

It seems that I remember what you wrote better than you yourself do!
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
I remember, yesterday you posted a message in reply to one of my posts regarding a Ponzi scheme where you stated some sheer nonsense about fractional reserve banking being a Ponzi (which was along the line of the discussion then). And just as I wanted to submit my reply and hit the Post button, your post suddenly disappeared!

If I deleted something quickly, it might have meant I realized it was incorrect. I really don't remember writing what you claim.

When I delete my own posts, they don't go to my PM, so there is no way for me to check your claim. I would have been willing to explain what I was thinking and why I deleted if I could find the post you are referring to.

So now you come up with memory lapses... Splendid!

And you? You remember what you claim was written obviously since you are accusing me?
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
I remember, yesterday you posted a message in reply to one of my posts regarding a Ponzi scheme where you stated some sheer nonsense about fractional reserve banking being a Ponzi (which was along the line of the discussion then). And just as I wanted to submit my reply and hit the Post button, your post suddenly disappeared!

If I deleted something quickly, it might have meant I realized it was incorrect. I really don't remember writing what you claim.

When I delete my own posts, they don't go to my PM, so there is no way for me to check your claim. I would have been willing to explain what I was thinking and why I deleted if I could find the post you are referring to.

So now you come up with memory lapses... Splendid!
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
They may have no other job offer.

Nope. It just means they still have confidence in the system (at least some of them), plain and simple. If they didn't, it would mean the money completely had lost its exchange value, i.e. ceased to be money, so no more sense to work. Direct inference from your assertion ("intrinsic value of fiat relies on society maintaining confidence in its government and financial system")...

You assume a world of 0 friction where change happens instantly. If change happened instantly there would be no change, the end game would already be the present and the past. Friction (inertia) and time are inseparable. These are the sort of deep insights on my blog:

And now you say there is some inertia in the system. Before that, you said they might not have had another job offer... What will your next dodge be?

I hope you will realize that is not a logical retort.

When I present an argument, it doesn't mean I have to write every implied fact which you don't realize. I can't read your mind as to what misassumptions the reader has.

If you are asserting that inertia in the system and they did not leave because they did not have another job offer are mutually exclusive, then that is illogical.

It is fairly simple to understand. Hyperinflation doesn't go to infinity

1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000..................

in the blink of an eye. Real humans have to deal with real limitations on how fast they can transact to dump money they don't trust.

Losing trust in the system doesn't mean everyone can instantly find a way to survive outside the system.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
They may have no other job offer.

Nope. It just means they still have confidence in the system (at least some of them), plain and simple. If they didn't, it would mean the money completely had lost its exchange value, i.e. ceased to be money, so no more sense to work. Direct inference from your assertion ("intrinsic value of fiat relies on society maintaining confidence in its government and financial system")...

You assume a world of 0 friction where change happens instantly. If change happened instantly there would be no change, the end game would already be the present and the past. Friction (inertia) and time are inseparable. These are the sort of deep insights on my blog:

And now you say there is some inertia in the system. Before that, you said they might not have had another job offer... What will your next dodge be?
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
I deleted my own posts either because they were not on topic, or more importantly I've deleted them because they contained evidence and technical clues of what I am working on!  Wink

I remember, yesterday you posted a message in reply to one of my posts regarding a Ponzi scheme where you stated some sheer nonsense about fractional reserve banking being a Ponzi (which was along the line of the discussion then). And just as I wanted to submit my reply and hit the Post button, your post suddenly disappeared!

If I deleted something quickly, it might have meant I realized it was incorrect. I really don't remember writing what you claim.

When I delete my own posts, they don't go to my PM, so there is no way for me to check your claim. I would have been willing to explain what I was thinking and why I deleted if I could find the post you are referring to.

Do you remember any of what I allegedly wrote?
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
I deleted my own posts either because they were not on topic, or more importantly I've deleted them because they contained evidence and technical clues of what I am working on!  Wink

I remember, yesterday you posted a message in reply to one of my posts regarding a Ponzi scheme where you stated some sheer nonsense about fractional reserve banking being a Ponzi (which was along the line of the discussion then). And just as I wanted to submit my reply and hit the Post button, your post suddenly disappeared!
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
BTC are less concentrated than fiat !

Do you research instead of being jealous and crying !

Mathematically myopic mistake.

BTC are not distributed to even 1 / 1000 of all those who have fiat.

Why do butt hurt Bitards always assume I am crying?


Hmm... how many % are actually short fiat (mortgages, credit cards)?

It may be that 100% of fiat is concentrated to 0.1% of people, if we really dig deeper into numbers.

Clever and true. But it doesn't matter because per my prior post on this page, the government exists to make sure the masses are contented with the redistribution (whether they are 1984 zombies or not is another issue, which you also explained they get accustomed to).

Unfortunately are the occasional megadeaths that occur along the way with that paradigm.

Edit: Also Bitcoin has no intrinsic value either, so actually not as clever as I initially thought.
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
BTC are less concentrated than fiat !

Do you research instead of being jealous and crying !

Mathematically myopic mistake.

BTC are not distributed to even 1 / 1000 of all those who have fiat.

Why do butt hurt Bitards always assume I am crying?


Hmm... how many % are actually short fiat (mortgages, credit cards)?

It may be that 100% of fiat is concentrated to 0.1% of people, if we really dig deeper into numbers.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
BTC are less concentrated than fiat !

Do you research instead of being jealous and crying !

Mathematically myopic mistake.

BTC are not distributed to even 1 / 1000 of all those who have fiat.

Why do butt hurt Bitards always assume I am jealous or crying? When I am getting ready to kick your ass, it doesn't mean I am jealous or weak, it means I see low hanging fruit.
legendary
Activity: 1002
Merit: 1000
Bitcoin
BTC are less concentrated than fiat !

Do you research instead of being jealous and crying !
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
Consider relative size.

Crypto-currencies are a small fast moving thing that could disrupt their slow moving thing. The taipans can't play in our tiny market and we can't play in the huge slower growth one (of centralized control).

Expounded in our microcosm:

Since one can't predict which copy wins out in the end large holders must continuously diversify into new coins.  This is OT and obviously implies greater bitcoin growth for this to even become an issue.

Shows absolutely no understanding of large holders.

Large holders can't diversify. If they put a few % in an altcoin, they can't on a risk-weighted basis catch up to their 9x% even if it grows slower. If they diversify too much percent, they are not being risk-adverse.

Big capital is always blind to smaller opportunities (what I figuratively referred to as "dumb"), because it has to be. This is why won't see Richard Branson investing seriously in Bitcoin.

That is why large hoarders must be diluted by perpetual debasement. Otherwise they would enslave humanity in their vested interest. Society fights back, which is why government is compelled to redistribute. But government is captured by the elite. What a racket! All because we don't have a technology to dilute decentralized.

But we do! We just are not using it!

Note 5% per year is a very small tax to a fast growing smaller enterprise, yet it is naturally limiting the size of large holdings, because very large capital can do nearly nothing but lend at prevailing usury rates.

P.S. If you become rich, forget about growing your wealth. Invest (risk) it on venture capitalism. You will always have enough to eat. In fact, you will probably become as wealthy as King Solomon both materially, in compassion, and in wisdom. I wish this on you.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
All fiat started out being extremely centralized, first going to the central bankers, and then to private bankers, before finally getting down to the users. How was USD initially distributed and dispersed? Maybe you can follow that model.

Actually wasn't it more like the masses held some barter commodities and they traded these for more efficient (i.e. fungible, divisible) forms of medium-of-exchange, which ended up being fractionally debased (e.g. shaving coins) by intermediaries or fractional reserves by private banks, which ended up in failures, which caused larger protection (against failure, ahem) rackets to form, which is what we today call government and central banks.

That is why I wrote upthread that the fundamental issue is the power vacuum that society needs debased money (to continually flow from the usury hoarders back to the producers). Either the government provides this, or we decentralize the mechanism. In the former case, the government will slowly turn the people into 1984 zombies as I believe it is the top-down outcome. Thus not resilient and towards failure of the human race, e.g. Ted Turner's Georgia Guidestones goal.

P.S. I often hear the story of natives trading their land for a mirror to a European colonist or mestizo offspring. In my opinion, analogously (expected gains from) Bitcoin is the mirror and our collective freedom is the land.

Ted Turner what a hypocrite. He has I think 5 kids, yet he thinks from now on we should only be allowed 1 or 2. He thinks Buffalo are more important than the diversity of human knowledge, which can only grow exponentially by growing the population exponentially. Like most elite, he is socially and macro-economically insane, although rational on business profit. He got warped by his money or something and fell in love with the Buffalo or something. And now thinks he is smarter than nature and wants to enforce his warped priorities on the entire freaking world.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
Competition and greed are not the problem, rather it is the power vacuum that enables centralizing power. The government bureaucrat doesn't know how to compete in a granular market.

Governments, cartels, and monopolies exist because there is a power vacuum that can't be dominated by more granular competition. (Will write another time about why granular yields better fitness and less waste)

Those vested interests will always squash or co-opt any decentralization (movement or technology) which threatens to make granular competition dominant.

Perhaps, but in focusing on granular competition, aren't you forgetting the pecking order that they're also fighting over? If the US+UK don't want Bitcoin interfering with their banking system, then what about Russia, China, or other major players like the EU/Germany or Japan? Out of some kind of fear that the other will start to dominate, they sometimes seem to compete over who can incubate and nurture new technology the fastest.

As the dominant player, the US seems to face problems on 2 fronts: attack the Bitcoin up-start in any manner that is too obvious, and it also puts their "law and order" ponzi under pressure.

The idea of competition between nations is amusing to me, since all are dependent on the dollar. The tail doesn't wag the dog.

Fiat is centralizing, and the top dog wags the puppies. Until China leaves fiat (which ain't gonna happen by choice of the controllers of China), the overall game hasn't changed just moving some pieces around the board.

China's (and East Asia in general) controllers want to run their economies as top-down, productive businesses (seeks to increase the productivity of the people), whereas the West is run as a non-productive, rent seeking collective (discourages the productivity of the people). I postulate that this at least partially derives from the innate submissive/cooperative (at least on the face of it) culture of the Asian. Or for at least as long as they are export economies with trade surpluses and small government share of GDP, instead of consuming economies with trade deficits and government with majority share of GDP.

They will free up the Yuan FX rate, because they have no other pathway towards future business growth, since they exhausted the state-owned enterprises model of top-down export and fixed capital investment growth at the suppression of the consumer (home) share of the GDP, e.g. suppressing imports and international purchasing power of the Yuan. I believe they calculate that they can ramp up the consumer sector while stagnating the aforementioned sector by 2020 (as stated in recent news) so as to avoid implosion. I think they will partially fail to contain a slump due to global contagion coming which will severely impact their export sector, and the high level of NPL debt that has to be absorbed. China will come out of that severe slump as a fledgling consumer giant.

But they are not giving up central bank control.

Consider relative size.

Crypto-currencies are a small fast moving thing that could disrupt their slow moving thing. The taipans can't play in our tiny market and we can't play in the huge slower growth one (of centralized control).
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
There was a hypothetical question in my PM which is basically am I going to put all my effort in one altcoin. And my answer is I would support and help any coin that I feel has promise in stopping the bad outcomes I fear. I might even use gains I achieved by investing in one coin to fund development on and invest in other coin. Any one who produces good stuff, I am in. I am trying to incite more quality competition. Systems that have a single point of failure are not resilient, e.g. one crypto-currency for the world.

http://unheresy.com/Information%20Is%20Alive.html#Knowledge_Anneals

Quote
Top-down systems are inherently fragile because they overcommit to egregious error (link to Taleb's simplest summary of the math).
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