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Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 24114. (Read 26712498 times)

hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
Oh great even more money floating over to China!

Yes, China is an exporter of bitcoins, and that transfers wealth from the West to China.

I don't know where the main mining ASIC manufacturers are (China, taiwan, Korea?) but that is a major industry too.

Wow do you consider USD inflation when calculating mastercards transaction costs too? Roll Eyes

Not sure I get your point.  1.2 million per day is the cost of the bitcoin network in dollars. I did not consider the dollar inflation there, why should it be considered for MasterCard?

But anyway, Bitcoin inflation is 1.3 million bitcoins per year over 13 million existing bitcins, or 10% per year.  How much is the dollar's?
hero member
Activity: 669
Merit: 500
Hahaha... nice one! Kudos for the way you explained it and happily won't argue. You know though -deep inside- that this is a completely wrong way to calculate it... right?

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees

Transaction fees now yield only 15 BTC per day or so to the miners. 

In the future, as the block reward decreases, the transaction fees would have to make up for the difference, in order to keep the network working.  How much they would have to be depends on the price of BTC, the traffic at that time.  We cannot predict now how the transition will work out.  For the time being, it is a fact that the network is supported by the block rewards, and fees are negligible in that regard.

So the miners are getting subsidized about $10 per transaction from bitcoin inflation, where you are getting subsidized about $10 per post from Brazil robbing it's taxpayers and inflating the Brazilian real.
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 1003
Inevitabley transaction  fees will  increase when miners  arent rewarded  enough as blocks divide  and the last coins are minted.
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
Hahaha... nice one! Kudos for the way you explained it and happily won't argue. You know though -deep inside- that this is a completely wrong way to calculate it... right?

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees

Transaction fees now yield only 15 BTC per day or so to the miners. 

In the future, as the block reward decreases, the transaction fees would have to make up for the difference, in order to keep the network working.  How much they would have to be depends on the price of BTC, the traffic at that time.  We cannot predict now how the transition will work out.  For the time being, it is a fact that the network is supported by the block rewards, and fees are negligible in that regard.
legendary
Activity: 2833
Merit: 1851
In order to dump coins one must have coins
the bitcoin network currently costs ~3600 BTC/day = ~1.2 million USD/day, or over 10 USD/transaction.
Source?

Miners get paid 25 BTC per block mined.

At 1 block every 10 minutes, that is 144 blocks/day, hence 3600 BTC/day.

At 350 USD/BTC, that is 1.26 million dollars per day.

Last time I looked there were about 100'000 transactions per day.  Hence 12.6 dollars per transaction.

Transactions seem free now because the network is paid with newly issued coins (there is an ugly word for that, but let's not rub that in).

Who pays that cost are the people who buy those 3600 new coins per day; whether small investors at the exchanges, or bigger investors over-the counter or by contracts with miners.  Those people give 1.26 million dollars per day, that they earned elsewhere, to the miners of the world; that goes into equipment, buildings, personel, electricity bills, and miners' profits.

Wow do you consider USD inflation when calculating mastercards transaction costs too? Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 2833
Merit: 1851
In order to dump coins one must have coins
Think that was the last of Finex dumpers coins, now can we go up?? Roll Eyes
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
the bitcoin network currently costs ~3600 BTC/day = ~1.2 million USD/day, or over 10 USD/transaction.
Source?

Miners get paid 25 BTC per block mined.

At 1 block every 10 minutes, that is 144 blocks/day, hence 3600 BTC/day.

At 350 USD/BTC, that is 1.26 million dollars per day.

Last time I looked there were about 100'000 transactions per day.  Hence 12.6 dollars per transaction.

Transactions seem free now because the network is paid with newly issued coins (there is an ugly word for that, but let's not rub that in).

Who pays that cost are the people who buy those 3600 new coins per day; whether small investors at the exchanges, or bigger investors over-the counter or by contracts with miners.  Those people give 1.26 million dollars per day, that they earned elsewhere, to the miners of the world; that goes into equipment, buildings, personel, electricity bills, and miners' profits.

Oh great even more money floating over to China!
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1000
everyone is overly bearish... pretty sure this means the price is wrong.

Indeed...everyone is expecting it to hit the long term trendline, but sell volume is low on a longer term scale

Just when you think you have everything figured out, sentiment can turn on a dime
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
legendary
Activity: 1484
Merit: 1002
Strange, yet attractive.
the bitcoin network currently costs ~3600 BTC/day = ~1.2 million USD/day, or over 10 USD/transaction.
Source?

Miners get paid 25 BTC per block mined.

At 1 block every 10 minutes, that is 144 blocks/day, hence 3600 BTC/day.

At 350 USD/BTC, that is 1.26 million dollars per day.

Last time I looked there were about 100'000 transactions per day.  Hence 12.6 dollars per transaction.

Transactions seem free now because the network is paid with newly issued coins (there is an ugly word for that, but let's not rub that in).

Who pays that cost are the people who buy those 3600 new coins per day; whether small investors at the exchanges, or bigger investors over-the counter or by contracts with miners.  Those people give 1.26 million dollars per day, that they earned elsewhere, to the miners of the world; that goes into equipment, buildings, personel, electricity bills, and miners' profits.

Hahaha... nice one! Kudos for the way you explained it and happily won't argue. You know though -deep inside- that this is a completely wrong way to calculate it... right?

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
member
Activity: 87
Merit: 10
i think at this point in time bitcoin is a solution looking for a problem.

almost 24 months ago people though that bitcoin would revolutionize the business of international money transfers, people started working on designing ATMs, and fiat to bitcoin exchanges popped up in many jurisdictions. a solution to an old problem.

today we have some ATMs and a healthy number of exchanges, however both of these have very high regulatory costs.  as it turns out much of that "problem" is mostly the creation of various regulatory regimes, since we no longer generally ship around tons of gold on ships, that let us say are in place to allow incumbents to make money along with providing protocols that allow for reporting to governments primarily for reasons related to tax collection, but also the enforcement of embargoes, sanctions and the never ending hunt for organized crime (terror, drugs, etc).

frankly this is not what bitcoin, as one can plainly see, excels at.

one has to go back to the Satoshi Nakamoto white paper and re-read it occasionally to pull out new nuggets of insight based on what has transpired.

Quote
While the system works well enough for most transactions, it still suffers from the inherent weaknesses of the trust based model.
Completely non-reversible transactions are not really possible, since financial institutions cannot avoid mediating disputes.  The cost of mediation increases transaction costs, limiting the minimum practical transaction size and cutting off the possibility for small casual transactions, and there is a broader cost in the loss of ability to make non-reversible payments for nonreversible
services.

A few things to note here:

1. "the system works well enough for most transactions" means that Satoshi thought that "most transactions" concerning online commerce are handled well by the current system. therefor it is not likely that bitcoin applies to say the purchase of books on amazon.com.  Bitpay, circle and coinbase are sadly barking up the wrong tree.

2. so what is bitcoin perhaps good for?  there answer is right there in the first paragraph: "small casual transactions" and " non-reversible payments for nonreversible services".

What are interactions that may constitute say "small casual transactions"?

1. tipping - this has been relatively successful for reddit and doge it seems
2. online gambling - we can see that the dice sites appear to do decent business
3. ?
4. ??
5. Huh

What are "nonreversible services"?

1. the time stamping of a digital document
2. the use of processing power
3. the use of data storage
4. the escrowing of something of value
5. the execution of a contract between some parties
6. the delivery of data
7.
8.
9.

Now ask yourselves, how many bitcoin services and business do you know which fall into some of these categories?

And then you, I think, shall understand why we are not yet at $10000/btc.

When folks on here can start naming popular services in a majority of these categories, and perhaps others, then we will see not only the foundation for more wide spread adoption but also price.

Most of the investments in the current space by VC are really throwing money into a fire. But I have full confidence that in time (say 2-3 years) other groups that are more nimble and not necessarily driven by rigid business plans will begin to execute on these.  Of course that is the reason why I really like projects like Ethereum, Counterparty and Storj.




This could be the single best post in the entire thread.  Bitcoin has shown us the power of the blockchain however some of the alt's are taking this ideology and targeting specific issues around the world.  BTC has the first mover advantage however after thoroughly investigating such alt's as BitShares is hard to imagine one of these projects NOT overtaking btc in short order unless a specific niche is filled by btc alone.

BTC as strictly a currency may not be enough for mass adoption where as the blockchain itself is set to change the financial world.

Bitcoin as first mover gets the news the blockchain can change the world. 

Prophets I have been reading everything bitcoin and al for a while and nobody has put these feelings into a statement so concisely as this post... Bookmark this, tweet it blog it but this is one of the best written posts in the entire bitcoin landscape
hero member
Activity: 547
Merit: 502
i think at this point in time bitcoin is a solution looking for a problem.

almost 24 months ago people though that bitcoin would revolutionize the business of international money transfers, people started working on designing ATMs, and fiat to bitcoin exchanges popped up in many jurisdictions. a solution to an old problem.

today we have some ATMs and a healthy number of exchanges, however both of these have very high regulatory costs.  as it turns out much of that "problem" is mostly the creation of various regulatory regimes, since we no longer generally ship around tons of gold on ships, that let us say are in place to allow incumbents to make money along with providing protocols that allow for reporting to governments primarily for reasons related to tax collection, but also the enforcement of embargoes, sanctions and the never ending hunt for organized crime (terror, drugs, etc).

frankly this is not what bitcoin, as one can plainly see, excels at.

one has to go back to the Satoshi Nakamoto white paper and re-read it occasionally to pull out new nuggets of insight based on what has transpired.

Quote
While the system works well enough for most transactions, it still suffers from the inherent weaknesses of the trust based model.
Completely non-reversible transactions are not really possible, since financial institutions cannot avoid mediating disputes.  The cost of mediation increases transaction costs, limiting the minimum practical transaction size and cutting off the possibility for small casual transactions, and there is a broader cost in the loss of ability to make non-reversible payments for nonreversible
services.

A few things to note here:

1. "the system works well enough for most transactions" means that Satoshi thought that "most transactions" concerning online commerce are handled well by the current system. therefor it is not likely that bitcoin applies to say the purchase of books on amazon.com.  Bitpay, circle and coinbase are sadly barking up the wrong tree.

2. so what is bitcoin perhaps good for?  there answer is right there in the first paragraph: "small casual transactions" and " non-reversible payments for nonreversible services".

What are interactions that may constitute say "small casual transactions"?

1. tipping - this has been relatively successful for reddit and doge it seems
2. online gambling - we can see that the dice sites appear to do decent business
3. ?
4. ??
5. Huh

What are "nonreversible services"?

1. the time stamping of a digital document
2. the use of processing power
3. the use of data storage
4. the escrowing of something of value
5. the execution of a contract between some parties
6. the delivery of data
7.
8.
9.

Now ask yourselves, how many bitcoin services and business do you know which fall into some of these categories?

And then you, I think, shall understand why we are not yet at $10000/btc.

When folks on here can start naming popular services in a majority of these categories, and perhaps others, then we will see not only the foundation for more wide spread adoption but also price.

Most of the investments in the current space by VC are really throwing money into a fire. But I have full confidence that in time (say 2-3 years) other groups that are more nimble and not necessarily driven by rigid business plans will begin to execute on these.  Of course that is the reason why I really like projects like Ethereum, Counterparty and Storj.




This could be the single best post in the entire thread.  Bitcoin has shown us the power of the blockchain however some of the alt's are taking this ideology and targeting specific issues around the world.  BTC has the first mover advantage however after thoroughly investigating such alt's as BitShares is hard to imagine one of these projects NOT overtaking btc in short order unless a specific niche is filled by btc alone.

BTC as strictly a currency may not be enough for mass adoption where as the blockchain itself is set to change the financial world.
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
the bitcoin network currently costs ~3600 BTC/day = ~1.2 million USD/day, or over 10 USD/transaction.
Source?

Miners get paid 25 BTC per block mined.

At 1 block every 10 minutes, that is 144 blocks/day, hence 3600 BTC/day.

At 350 USD/BTC, that is 1.26 million dollars per day.

Last time I looked there were about 100'000 transactions per day.  Hence 12.6 dollars per transaction.

Transactions seem free now because the network is paid with newly issued coins (there is an ugly word for that, but let's not rub that in).

Who pays that cost are the people who buy those 3600 new coins per day; whether small investors at the exchanges, or bigger investors over-the counter or by contracts with miners.  Those people give 1.26 million dollars per day, that they earned elsewhere, to the miners of the world; that goes into equipment, buildings, personel, electricity bills, and miners' profits.
member
Activity: 87
Merit: 10
i think at this point in time bitcoin is a solution looking for a problem.

almost 24 months ago people though that bitcoin would revolutionize the business of international money transfers, people started working on designing ATMs, and fiat to bitcoin exchanges popped up in many jurisdictions. a solution to an old problem.

today we have some ATMs and a healthy number of exchanges, however both of these have very high regulatory costs.  as it turns out much of that "problem" is mostly the creation of various regulatory regimes, since we no longer generally ship around tons of gold on ships, that let us say are in place to allow incumbents to make money along with providing protocols that allow for reporting to governments primarily for reasons related to tax collection, but also the enforcement of embargoes, sanctions and the never ending hunt for organized crime (terror, drugs, etc).

frankly this is not what bitcoin, as one can plainly see, excels at.

one has to go back to the Satoshi Nakamoto white paper and re-read it occasionally to pull out new nuggets of insight based on what has transpired.

Quote
While the system works well enough for most transactions, it still suffers from the inherent weaknesses of the trust based model.
Completely non-reversible transactions are not really possible, since financial institutions cannot avoid mediating disputes.  The cost of mediation increases transaction costs, limiting the minimum practical transaction size and cutting off the possibility for small casual transactions, and there is a broader cost in the loss of ability to make non-reversible payments for nonreversible
services.

A few things to note here:

1. "the system works well enough for most transactions" means that Satoshi thought that "most transactions" concerning online commerce are handled well by the current system. therefor it is not likely that bitcoin applies to say the purchase of books on amazon.com.  Bitpay, circle and coinbase are sadly barking up the wrong tree.

2. so what is bitcoin perhaps good for?  there answer is right there in the first paragraph: "small casual transactions" and " non-reversible payments for nonreversible services".

What are interactions that may constitute say "small casual transactions"?

1. tipping - this has been relatively successful for reddit and doge it seems
2. online gambling - we can see that the dice sites appear to do decent business
3. ?
4. ??
5. Huh

What are "nonreversible services"?

1. the time stamping of a digital document
2. the use of processing power
3. the use of data storage
4. the escrowing of something of value
5. the execution of a contract between some parties
6. the delivery of data
7.
8.
9.

Now ask yourselves, how many bitcoin services and business do you know which fall into some of these categories?

And then you, I think, shall understand why we are not yet at $10000/btc.

When folks on here can start naming popular services in a majority of these categories, and perhaps others, then we will see not only the foundation for more wide spread adoption but also price.

Most of the investments in the current space by VC are really throwing money into a fire. But I have full confidence that in time (say 2-3 years) other groups that are more nimble and not necessarily driven by rigid business plans will begin to execute on these.  Of course that is the reason why I really like projects like Ethereum, Counterparty and Storj.




This is probably one of the most level headed honest posts I have read in a long time
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1007
Hide your women
We were supposed to be testing the 400's again, and now we are back to 350 Sad

Why is reality so stubborn?

Because some heavy hitter has perfected a brilliant four punch combination. It has nothing to do with fundamentals at all. It's

What four punch combination? and can you finish the sentence "its" heh

fixed. Sorry, phone call.
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 1003
i think at this point in time bitcoin is a solution looking for a problem.

almost 24 months ago people though that bitcoin would revolutionize the business of international money transfers, people started working on designing ATMs, and fiat to bitcoin exchanges popped up in many jurisdictions. a solution to an old problem.

today we have some ATMs and a healthy number of exchanges, however both of these have very high regulatory costs.  as it turns out much of that "problem" is mostly the creation of various regulatory regimes, since we no longer generally ship around tons of gold on ships, that let us say are in place to allow incumbents to make money along with providing protocols that allow for reporting to governments primarily for reasons related to tax collection, but also the enforcement of embargoes, sanctions and the never ending hunt for organized crime (terror, drugs, etc).

frankly this is not what bitcoin, as one can plainly see, excels at.

one has to go back to the Satoshi Nakamoto white paper and re-read it occasionally to pull out new nuggets of insight based on what has transpired.

Quote
While the system works well enough for most transactions, it still suffers from the inherent weaknesses of the trust based model.
Completely non-reversible transactions are not really possible, since financial institutions cannot avoid mediating disputes.  The cost of mediation increases transaction costs, limiting the minimum practical transaction size and cutting off the possibility for small casual transactions, and there is a broader cost in the loss of ability to make non-reversible payments for nonreversible
services.

A few things to note here:

1. "the system works well enough for most transactions" means that Satoshi thought that "most transactions" concerning online commerce are handled well by the current system. therefor it is not likely that bitcoin applies to say the purchase of books on amazon.com.  Bitpay, circle and coinbase are sadly barking up the wrong tree.

2. so what is bitcoin perhaps good for?  there answer is right there in the first paragraph: "small casual transactions" and " non-reversible payments for nonreversible services".

What are interactions that may constitute say "small casual transactions"?

1. tipping - this has been relatively successful for reddit and doge it seems
2. online gambling - we can see that the dice sites appear to do decent business
3. ?
4. ??
5. Huh

What are "nonreversible services"?

1. the time stamping of a digital document
2. the use of processing power
3. the use of data storage
4. the escrowing of something of value
5. the execution of a contract between some parties
6. the delivery of data
7.
8.
9.

Now ask yourselves, how many bitcoin services and business do you know which fall into some of these categories?

And then you, I think, shall understand why we are not yet at $10000/btc.

When folks on here can start naming popular services in a majority of these categories, and perhaps others, then we will see not only the foundation for more wide spread adoption but also price.

Most of the investments in the current space by VC are really throwing money into a fire. But I have full confidence that in time (say 2-3 years) other groups that are more nimble and not necessarily driven by rigid business plans will begin to execute on these.  Of course that is the reason why I really like projects like Ethereum, Counterparty and Storj.




Fraud prevention and liability for accounts are a big problem also and will hamper its adoption.

Unlike credit card companies and banks who can get the money back from the merchant or store and take the hit for their customers, who will do this for btc?  There is a reason why the interchange fees ( transaction fee and % rate) are so high in addition to the transaction charges per transaction

Where btc reduces these transaction fees, risks for users losing btc because of theft or hack  and never getting a refund are very high.
legendary
Activity: 1484
Merit: 1002
Strange, yet attractive.
one has to go back to the Satoshi Nakamoto white paper and re-read it occasionally to pull out new nuggets of insight based on what has transpired.

Quote
While the [ traditional ] system works well enough for most transactions, it still suffers from the inherent weaknesses of the trust based model.
Completely non-reversible transactions are not really possible, since financial institutions cannot avoid mediating disputes.  The cost of mediation increases transaction costs, limiting the minimum practical transaction size and cutting off the possibility for small casual transactions, and there is a broader cost in the loss of ability to make non-reversible payments for nonreversible
services.

Well, the bitcoin network currently costs ~3600 BTC/day = ~1.2 million USD/day, or over 10 USD/transaction.  Something went wrong there?

Source?
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
one has to go back to the Satoshi Nakamoto white paper and re-read it occasionally to pull out new nuggets of insight based on what has transpired.

Quote
While the [ traditional ] system works well enough for most transactions, it still suffers from the inherent weaknesses of the trust based model.
Completely non-reversible transactions are not really possible, since financial institutions cannot avoid mediating disputes.  The cost of mediation increases transaction costs, limiting the minimum practical transaction size and cutting off the possibility for small casual transactions, and there is a broader cost in the loss of ability to make non-reversible payments for nonreversible
services.

Well, the bitcoin network currently costs ~3600 BTC/day = ~1.2 million USD/day, or over 10 USD/transaction.  Something went wrong there?
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
World Class Cryptonaire
We were supposed to be testing the 400's again, and now we are back to 350 Sad

Why is reality so stubborn?

Because some heavy hitter has perfected a brilliant four punch combination. It has nothing to do with fundamentals at all. It's

What four punch combination? and can you finish the sentence "its" heh
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