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Topic: Mempool Observer Topic - page 67. (Read 21852 times)

hero member
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Magic
February 02, 2024, 12:20:27 PM
Anyway, Satoshi opnion 15 years ago doesn't matters anymore. Bitcoin is much bigger than him. It is not centralized in his old posts.

First you say that Satoshi never planned the increase of the block size. If you are shown written proof that he did plan to increase block size you simply say that Satoshi is not relevant for todays bitcoin. Seems like you just dont want a bigger block size but dont have any arguments that support it.

This makes me wonder what you intentions are that you are not willing to support a larger block size?
copper member
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bc1qvq66kccea2fdqft6kss2zyn8y32z8xyy9rzhp0
February 02, 2024, 12:00:02 PM
     
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member
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February 02, 2024, 11:28:23 AM
So you think that if you buy a $2 coffee in Starbucks this transaction should be registered in all computers running bitcoin in the world? Inegociable?
Who decides what's "important" enough to mandate space in the blockchain?
In general, micro-transactions shouldn't happen on-chain for the single reason that they are impractical, at least under this block size. Ideally, micro-transactions should happen off-chain, not because I say it, but because it is not sustainable; people would rather not pay more than their coffee for a transaction fee.

Yes, I agree with you entirely. Micro-transactions on the blockchain are just impractical and could even cause a congestion in the network and increased fees, among other issues. For these kinds of transactions, off-chain solutions such as the Lightning Network are far more appropriate. Alongside others also think that the only way to scale Bitcoin to accommodate widespread usage is through off-chain methods.
legendary
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Farewell, Leo
February 02, 2024, 10:12:49 AM
So you think that if you buy a $2 coffee in Starbucks this transaction should be registered in all computers running bitcoin in the world? Inegociable?
Who decides what's "important" enough to mandate space in the blockchain?
In general, micro-transactions shouldn't happen on-chain for the single reason that they are impractical, at least under this block size. Ideally, micro-transactions should happen off-chain, not because I say it, but because it is not sustainable; people would rather not pay more than their coffee for a transaction fee.

I don't think we are going to reach $1k transaction fees, but if that ever happens, then Lightning Network is standing ready.
If fees reach $1k, then nobody apart from millionaires will open lightning channels.
legendary
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bitcoindata.science
February 02, 2024, 10:06:54 AM
And what was Satoshi's opinion about LN?  Wink
I know Finney's opinion

Anyway, Satoshi opnion 15 years ago doesn't matters anymore. Bitcoin is much bigger than him. It is not centralized in his old posts.
legendary
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Blackjack.fun
February 02, 2024, 09:40:27 AM
So you think that if you buy a $2 coffee in Starbucks this transaction should be registered in all computers running bitcoin in the world? Inegociable?
This is what makes zero sense to me.

Weird, so Satoshi was wrong now:

Forgot to add the good part about micropayments.  While I don't think Bitcoin is practical for smaller micropayments right now, it will eventually be as storage and bandwidth costs continue to fall.  If Bitcoin catches on on a big scale, it may already be the case by that time.  Another way they can become more practical is if I implement client-only mode and the number of network nodes consolidates into a smaller number of professional server farms.  Whatever size micropayments you need will eventually be practical.  I think in 5 or 10 years, the bandwidth and storage will seem trivial.

The moment your 5$ has a priority over my 2$ then you have turned Bitcoin into a Fico Score machine!
And who decides what's the "importance limit" in it?
Who decides what's "important" enough to mandate space in the blockchain?
Should consolidations be allowed, since they are obviously useless in terms of space used?
Should conjoins be allowed since they are just eating up space?
Should we put a $100 limit on each output to prevent dust?

Or how about this, we should recreate all the blocks that keep satoshidice records, why should those spam tx be held there for decades when it's just useless back an forth movement of coins?

And use second layer (like LN or other)for small tx

And what was Satoshi's opinion about LN?  Wink

legendary
Activity: 1568
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bitcoincleanup.com / bitmixlist.org
February 02, 2024, 06:44:02 AM
If that ever happens bitcoin is begging for somebody to create an alternative currency. So far all the altcoins failed because bitcoin is just to good to be replaced. But at this point there are going to be so many people that can not use bitcoin at all, that you will make the effort to change to another coin.

What will happen is that if bitcoin really has a 1k USD transaction fee the price will be so high that all the old bitcoiners will not care anymore. But it will lock up bitcoin for new people to come in.

Ethereum and Monero haven't "failed" bud. For the rest, the ones that are not money grabs obviously, then yes, the loogic applies that Bitcoin is (so far) too good to be replace.

I don't think we are going to reach $1k transaction fees, but if that ever happens, then Lightning Network is standing ready.
copper member
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bc1qvq66kccea2fdqft6kss2zyn8y32z8xyy9rzhp0
February 02, 2024, 06:00:02 AM
     
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hero member
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Magic
February 02, 2024, 02:19:59 AM



Bitcoin is very powerful, yet even if at some points in the future, there might be long periods of time in which it is costing $1k or more to settle transactions on the main chain


If that ever happens bitcoin is begging for somebody to create an alternative currency. So far all the altcoins failed because bitcoin is just to good to be replaced. But at this point there are going to be so many people that can not use bitcoin at all, that you will make the effort to change to another coin.

What will happen is that if bitcoin really has a 1k USD transaction fee the price will be so high that all the old bitcoiners will not care anymore. But it will lock up bitcoin for new people to come in.
copper member
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bc1qvq66kccea2fdqft6kss2zyn8y32z8xyy9rzhp0
February 02, 2024, 12:00:01 AM
     
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legendary
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Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
February 01, 2024, 06:56:14 PM
It does not make any sense to me how some hardcore nerds are really this far in the digital world, that they think they should invent a second layer payment system that people should then use everyday. This will never catch on, and if it will it is still idiotic.

So you think that if you buy a $2 coffee in Starbucks this transaction should be registered in all computers running bitcoin in the world? Inegociable?
This is what makes zero sense to me. I see no "idiotic" trying to find a solution just to put high value transactions in the main layer in the future.

And use second layer (like LN or other)for small tx

Bitcoin is very powerful, yet even if at some points in the future, there might be long periods of time in which it is costing $1k or more to settle transactions on the main chain, that might just be part of the direction that bitcoin develops.  And, yes there are second and third layer solutions, so we are going to be witnessing how a lot of this is going to play out with the combination (or is it called sharing of UTXOs), even if some folks seem to not like the ways that some of this is going.. and the high fees are ongoingly inspiring ways to continue to perform small transactions in economical ways, even if they might not be on the base chain.

By the way, don't get me wrong.  I personally have been quite frustrated by the extended higher fees in the last 2.5 months or so.. at least from the beginning of November through the middle of January and various other points in bitcoin's history, especially starting around February 2023 when the ordinals/inscriptions were introduced. So yeah, poor people are going to have to clean up their UTXOs otherwise be unusable, and that kind of sucks.. yet there likely are going to be some innovations in which transactions are still going to take place and bitcoin is still going to empower poor people, even though there may well be extended periods of time in which the smaller transactions are not economically feasible on the main chain.

Another thing that I have been considering recently is some of the proclamations that channels are being made for miners to receive payments outside of the main chain incentive systems, and so therefore they are processing transactions out of order, and so whether such an attack or such a deviance from bitcoin's built in incentives is sustainable remains to be seen.. even though surely in recent times fees have been coming back down, but there still may well be shenanigans going on with some of the likely ongoing out of band (or off chain) payments.
copper member
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bc1qvq66kccea2fdqft6kss2zyn8y32z8xyy9rzhp0
February 01, 2024, 06:00:01 PM
     
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legendary
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February 01, 2024, 05:58:49 PM
So you think that if you buy a $2 coffee in Starbucks this transaction should be registered in all computers running bitcoin in the world? Inegociable?
This is what makes zero sense to me. I see no "idiotic" trying to find a solution just to put high value transactions in the main layer in the future.

And use second layer (like LN or other)for small tx

^ i see someone that wants to have bitcoin as just a blockchain for the elites.. where developing countries should be shunned/shuvved off the network, being told their ($2) daily/weekly wage is not good enough for the network
(bitmover is just copying a narrative from 7 years ago.. his $2 coffee script is not even original)

yes people could develop a subnetwork for daily niche usage. but forcing people to not have access to the mainnet due to elitism is something we should deter

hero member
Activity: 1050
Merit: 642
Magic
February 01, 2024, 05:48:02 PM

So you think that if you buy a $2 coffee in Starbucks this transaction should be registered in all computers running bitcoin in the world? Inegociable?

I think with rising storage capacity for a more and more cheaper price this is not an issue. If you want to create an internet currency or whatever Bitcoin is you will have to live with the fact that people use it.
Still I get the point of lightning etc. , I just think that Bitcoin should solve all of this issues. But definitely you can have a different approach to that.
legendary
Activity: 4424
Merit: 4794
February 01, 2024, 05:23:30 PM
there will be subnetworks that have utility need/niche usage need of some users..(future tense)
but the current generation of subnetworks do not "solve" the things all bitcoiners want. there are many security, utility and feature flaws of current subnetworks, which is why people are not adopting them even after 6-7years..

its not a failure of PR campaigns/promoting. its a failure of the underlying protocol not meeting its promises and security needs.

too many people that idolise subnetworks think their favoured subnetwork is the gold star network everyone should move to as the replacement from using bitcoin network. but they are just blind/ignorant to the issues of their favoured subnetworks and just want added popularity to not feel alone

developers should stop trying to do work-around's causing the flawed subnetworks to be more centralised as a trick to get users to not notice the flaws. and instead learn from the flaws mistakes and start a fresh project using a different payment system model that simply doesnt have the flaws and meets the users niche utility needs

that being said we should not be idolising concepts of locking funds up into partnerships/middlemen required subnetworks where trying to settle the pegs back to real BTC is annoying, slow, expensive. we also need to fix the "softened" exploits of bitcoin to make bitcoin act like the bitcoin network should where people can use the bitcoin network when needed. rather then the cludgy exploits being added to annoy people into using bitcoin less by force/coercion caused by the code edits of the last 6-7 years
sr. member
Activity: 1666
Merit: 310
February 01, 2024, 05:07:14 PM
Bitcoin is already way to complicated for 80% of the world poulation. It does not make any sense to me how some hardcore nerds are really this far in the digital world, that they think they should invent a second layer payment system that people should then use everyday. This will never catch on, and if it will it is still idiotic.
People said the same thing about Linux during the 90s/2000s, that Linux would never become user-friendly enough to displace Windows and then Android came along with mobile devices... Wink

How can you be so sure that we won't have a similar innovation/adoption curve with Bitcoin?
legendary
Activity: 3934
Merit: 11405
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
February 01, 2024, 04:06:56 PM
If i remember correctly then it was the intend of satoshi to increase block size when bitcoin becomes more popular.

That is explicitly Faketoshi's intent, not Satoshi's.
What do you mean with that? I am pretty shure that he did a post about that here on the forum.
There is no post of him that explicitly says so


It is kind of funny that some people want to figure out exactly what Satoshi said and what Satoshi would do, which is quite problematic, even though there does seem to be some logic in terms of knowledge of design choices, yet at the same time, there are quite a few reasons why it does not matter what satoshi said and also it also likely does not matter very much what he would say - except for the purity of the logic play, and to convince based on the underlying reasonings that may or may not still be applicable towards bitcoin as it is evolving and perhaps some divergences in what could be chosen. .and does what any one person or group affect the direction of consensus.

So, thank god satoshi disappeared, whether he did it intentionally or not and whether he is still amongst us in another form (under another nym - and perhaps the more than one person idea too) or not.

Many scammers tried to push on this narrative,  which is false, as far as I know.

Surely the block limitations are not easy choices, and people are going to want to attempt to align with Satoshi's vision (meaning the real vision .. .not the fucktwat scamcoin). .. so yeah, some folks were probably less genuine than others in terms of what they were trying to push and why they were trying to push it.

They even created bitcoin cash and bitcoin sv, and made billions . But those coins are scam.

Probably, we could argue that bcash and bcash SV were somewhat temporarily successful in their exploitation of BIG blocker theories, yet there were quite a few other coins attempting to take advantage of various talking points about bitcoin being broken and that their coins was better in the various ways that bitcoin was broken.. and so we were likely less prepared for the level of spam attacks that were occurring towards the end of 2017 and a bit more than half of January 2018, but the narrative about bitcoin being broken due to such clogging of transactions at that time did carry into quite a few shitcoin talking points.. for sure even ethereum played a lot on those kinds of ideas of bitcoin's supposed inabilities to scale on the first layer.. but then when some of those coins became somewhat successful (by getting increased traffic), they ran into similar kinds of scaling problems and sometimes even with seemingly worse trade-offs.. at least most bitcoiners are not going to easily concede to any shitcoiner's claim to have had solved the scaling problem, since hardly any of them are even proof of work (anymore)..

I would think that an overwhelming majority of regular bitcoiners are going to recognize the POW is the actual innovation, so any of the shitcoins that are not at least attempting to employ some version of POW is not really accomplishing much in terms of decentralization (or at least the kind of innovations that bitcoin was attempting to accomplish).

There are some proof of work coins out there, but still they are not really that large, so we would have to be attempting to compare the proof of work coins to at least be in the right category of comparisons... and maybe since my whole post is devolving into losing the plot, we might at least be able to concede that there is no coin that is even close to bitcoin in terms of putting the scaleability issues to work within a proof of work system.. .. and don't get me wrong, the various shitcoins are not just faulty because they are proof of stake because many times they have all kinds of flaws that should cause a whole hell of a lot of skepticisms.. such as ethereum's problem with the number of coins that were issued in the first place and even how many coins actually exist.. now I am really devolving.. I better stop.
legendary
Activity: 2352
Merit: 6089
bitcoindata.science
February 01, 2024, 03:42:32 PM
It does not make any sense to me how some hardcore nerds are really this far in the digital world, that they think they should invent a second layer payment system that people should then use everyday. This will never catch on, and if it will it is still idiotic.

So you think that if you buy a $2 coffee in Starbucks this transaction should be registered in all computers running bitcoin in the world? Inegociable?
This is what makes zero sense to me. I see no "idiotic" trying to find a solution just to put high value transactions in the main layer in the future.

And use second layer (like LN or other)for small tx
hero member
Activity: 1050
Merit: 642
Magic
February 01, 2024, 03:36:36 PM
Bitcoin is already way to complicated for 80% of the world poulation. It does not make any sense to me how some hardcore nerds are really this far in the digital world, that they think they should invent a second layer payment system that people should then use everyday. This will never catch on, and if it will it is still idiotic.
legendary
Activity: 2352
Merit: 6089
bitcoindata.science
February 01, 2024, 03:12:15 PM
Very interesting. By chance, I had already seen this Liquid, but I had never paid much attention to it.

How does it work specifically? Is it different to LN or the same?

I discovered it a few weeks ago.

http://liquid.net/

I use it on
 https://aquawallet.io

It is different from lightning . It is much simpler. You have an address,  even usdt tokens, like any other blockchain.  But L-BTC is the same as btc, 1:1.
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