Mining fees will eventually kill bitcoin

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Quote from: joe101 on March 12, 2017, 09:17:58 PM

The fees are getting more and more expensive everyday!

Just today, i sent 3.77 usd and the bitcoin core client wanted 0.50 cents, that's ridiculous for 3.77

i created my own fee and the fee turned out to be 0.07, it's been 7 hours and no confirmations yet,

im not worried, i think eventually it will go through, and i wanted to test it to see how long it would take,

but yes, bitcoin would not work for small transactions for stores and between strangers, its too slow

i know the 0.50 cent fee would of been super fast, but it's way to expensive,

i remember when there was free fees and it was fast,

i have no problem if there is no free fees, i don't mind paying fees, to support the bitcoin technology because the transactions fees help the miners, but it is getting way out of control

i don't think bitcoin will go down that easy, it's still very convenient to transfer lots of money, millions,

i'm not ready to give up on bitcoin yet, but i hope they fix things, or yes it could kill bitcoin

You must understand that the price of miners fee is dictated by the size of the transaction in bytes and not by the amount you send, you could have send a million dollars and the fee will still be 50 cents which is very cheap what this means is that bitcoin is no longer a good way to send microtransactions.

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Quote from: jaysabi on March 12, 2017, 09:08:56 PM

Now that the SEC has rejected the Winklevoss bitcoin ETF, I decided to actually glance through their S-1 (registration statement) that they filed with the SEC just for the heck of it. The S-1 requires a statement and discussion of possible risks associated with a security that is seeking SEC registration. In the Winklevoss S-1, I found this section particularly noteworthy (emphasis is original):

Quote

As the number of Bitcoins awarded for solving a block in the Blockchain decreases, the incentive for miners to continue to contribute processing power to the Bitcoin Network will transition from a set reward to transaction fees. The requirement from miners of higher transaction fees in exchange for recording transactions in the Blockchain may decrease demand for Bitcoins and prevent the expansion of the Bitcoin Network to retail merchants and commercial businesses, resulting in a reduction in the Blended Bitcoin Price.

If transaction fees paid for the recording of transactions in the Blockchain become too high, the marketplace may be reluctant to accept Bitcoins as a means of payment and existing users may be motivated to switch from Bitcoins to another Digital Math-Based Asset or back to fiat currency. Decreased use and demand for Bitcoins may adversely affect their value and result in a reduction in the Blended Bitcoin Price.

Not only is this a risk that they highlighted, my view is this is inevitable, and that mining fees will eventually become prohibitive not only to bitcoin expansion, but everyday bitcoin function. This is the flaw that will eventually render bitcoin unusable for everyday commerce, and the price will decline accordingly as demand for coins falls off as a result.

Mining fees will eventually kill bitcoin, the question is if this is avoidable with some type of change, or a predetermined fate that cannot be altered due to the nature of the ecosystem?

Its the biggest issue which the bitcoin environment is facing today.I had to pay my friend some amount and so i sent btc with a fee of 0.0009 manually set hoping that it would be confirmed quickly.But what happened is i had to wait for 24 hours to receive the payment.In this digital world,every thing happens fast and digital gold taking more time seems very much contrast.

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Quote from: DoublerHunter on April 09, 2017, 04:30:50 AM

Quote from: Meowth05 on April 09, 2017, 02:02:13 AM

Quote from: rajasumi3 on April 09, 2017, 12:34:39 AM

No i dont think it will totally kill bitcoins .with the advancement of the price tx fees will increase and i think it is the minimum when comparison to the taxes u pay through the governement .

Eventually, if we are about to compare the tax between the fiat money transactions and bitcoin transactions, bitcoin transaction's fee is still cheaper than fiat money transactions since it only pays miners, not the governments. However, if the governments charge or require every bitcoin's transaction, it would eventually keeps its users to prefer other means of transactions. This is quite possible, yet there's no assurance if it would eventually happen.

That is correct. The fees in bitcoin is still cheaper than the fiat or any other kind of payment method. Even though it is continue rising, i think the fee is still fair for the users that are usually doing transactions because even though they send a lot of money, the fee is not that high and you can still have much left in your wallet. Also, the transactions are still average in time frame and i can received bitcoin within an hour which is still great with a cheaper fee in it

How long and how often have you actually been using "fiat or any other kind of payment method"?

In most cases, you don't have to pay anything as a transaction fee if you buy things both online and offline using a payment card like Visa or MasterCard. In fact, the bank which issued the card can even give you a certain percentage of cashback on a specific category of purchases (or just on all purchases) if you use their card. Needless to say that all these transactions are virtually instant (typically, it takes only a few seconds to confirm the transaction). Some banks even offer free of charge wire transfers up to a certain limit of amount transferred. You could hypothetically transact in bitcoins with no fees at all, provided you first completely exclude confirmation times (up to a few days) from consideration altogether

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Quote from: Meowth05 on April 09, 2017, 02:02:13 AM

Quote from: rajasumi3 on April 09, 2017, 12:34:39 AM

No i dont think it will totally kill bitcoins .with the advancement of the price tx fees will increase and i think it is the minimum when comparison to the taxes u pay through the governement .

Eventually, if we are about to compare the tax between the fiat money transactions and bitcoin transactions, bitcoin transaction's fee is still cheaper than fiat money transactions since it only pays miners, not the governments. However, if the governments charge or require every bitcoin's transaction, it would eventually keeps its users to prefer other means of transactions. This is quite possible, yet there's no assurance if it would eventually happen.

That is correct. The fees in bitcoin is still cheaper than the fiat or any other kind of payment method. Even though it is continue rising, i think the fee is still fair for the users that are usually doing transactions because even though they send a lot of money, the fee is not that high and you can still have much left in your wallet. Also, the transactions are still average in time frame and i can received bitcoin within an hour which is still great with a cheaper fee in it.

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Quote from: rajasumi3 on April 09, 2017, 12:34:39 AM

No i dont think it will totally kill bitcoins .with the advancement of the price tx fees will increase and i think it is the minimum when comparison to the taxes u pay through the governement .

Eventually, if we are about to compare the tax between the fiat money transactions and bitcoin transactions, bitcoin transaction's fee is still cheaper than fiat money transactions since it only pays miners, not the governments. However, if the governments charge or require every bitcoin's transaction, it would eventually keeps its users to prefer other means of transactions. This is quite possible, yet there's no assurance if it would eventually happen.

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No i dont think it will totally kill bitcoins .with the advancement of the price tx fees will increase and i think it is the minimum when comparison to the taxes u pay through the governement .

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Quote from: deisik on March 20, 2017, 01:31:48 PM

Quote from: Pettuh4 on March 20, 2017, 01:24:19 PM

Quote from: bohr on March 17, 2017, 09:48:07 PM

The fact that fee will eventually grow as the reward for mining a block gets lower has always been part of the plan on the development of bitcoin, the issue here is there is not a solution backed by everyone to make bitcoin scale.

Well I'm not disputing that fact the mining fees were a part of the original plan but when there is discrimination in the determination of the fees then I have a problem because we need to be treated equally. Why should my transaction delay because I couldn't pay more fees? This is my bane and if we don't get it solved it can kill Bitcoin eventually

There is no need to be treated equally

To force equal treatment in the way you want it would kill Bitcoin even faster. Socialism is not sustainable in a closed system. You basically want that someone else should pay the fee for you if you want to be treated equally and at the same time pay less. In fact, you don't need to be treated equally at all since if there were a true free market in the mining department, all transactions would be included even if higher paying ones (i.e. with more fees) would still be prioritized. The reason is pretty simple, in a free market miners would be interested to include all transactions with however small fees just because that would be a rational choice to increase profits. Right now they can increase profits by raising the fees themselves by excluding low-fee transactions. This is possible because there is a mining oligopoly in Bitcoin and users have no other choice but to pay higher fees

You can't include all transaction when there isn't space though. The limited block size means wait time for the lowest price/byte transactions. Increasing transactions to increase profits isn't possible when the blocks are maxed out on size. And you can look at the blockchain itself to see that blocks are just about maxed out, so there just isn't capacity to increase profits by accepting more transactions.

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Quote from: Pettuh4 on March 20, 2017, 01:24:19 PM

Quote from: bohr on March 17, 2017, 09:48:07 PM

The fact that fee will eventually grow as the reward for mining a block gets lower has always been part of the plan on the development of bitcoin, the issue here is there is not a solution backed by everyone to make bitcoin scale.

Well I'm not disputing that fact the mining fees were a part of the original plan but when there is discrimination in the determination of the fees then I have a problem because we need to be treated equally. Why should my transaction delay because I couldn't pay more fees? This is my bane and if we don't get it solved it can kill Bitcoin eventually

There is no need to be treated equally

To force equal treatment in the way you want it would kill Bitcoin even faster. Socialism is not sustainable in a closed system. You basically want that someone else should pay the fee for you if you want to be treated equally and at the same time pay less. In fact, you don't need to be treated equally at all since if there were a true free market in the mining department, all transactions would be included even if higher paying ones (i.e. with more fees) would still be prioritized. The reason is pretty simple, in a free market miners would be interested to include all transactions with however small fees just because that would be a rational choice to increase profits. Right now they can increase profits by raising the fees themselves by excluding low-fee transactions. This is possible because there is a mining oligopoly in Bitcoin and users have no other choice but to pay higher fees

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Quote from: bohr on March 17, 2017, 09:48:07 PM

The fact that fee will eventually grow as the reward for mining a block gets lower has always been part of the plan on the development of bitcoin, the issue here is there is not a solution backed by everyone to make bitcoin scale.

Well I'm not disputing that fact the mining fees were a part of the original plan but when there is discrimination in the determination of the fees then I have a problem because we need to be treated equally. Why should my transaction delay because I couldn't pay more fees? This is my bane and if we don't get it solved it can kill Bitcoin eventually.

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Quote from: andron8383 on March 19, 2017, 05:27:26 PM

I think that main line you see already that cap BTC have. Without any changes i don't see major BTC rise against inflation.
BTC today stay at limit that alone without community Segwit/LN or BU it won't pass.
Once you stop evolving you will slide down because ctypo won't wait for BTC.
This is like EU all see its dying bu noone can pass changes and only fall can bring revolution.
Same time countries in Asia don't wait for EU and evolve and have +5 GDP.

Alts will improve because of high competition in market share, BTC will fall slowly off even from mainstream radars.
I want BU miners make HF and move on their own chain, let other create segwit/LN and we will see what market will chose.
Enchanted BTC core or forked alt BU if this is only solution let it be, best chain will win

The market price of a coin reveals everything you may need to know

Indeed, no one says there is nothing to know just beyond that but in respect to falling off slowly, the price will be the first hallmark if it ever comes to that. Regarding the BU folks (miners and developers alike), they seem to be the ones who are actually muddying the waters here. And the sooner they leave with their Bitcoin altcoin the better. But mark my words, they won't leave, they will continue to stay with Bitcoin. Otherwise, everyone and his dog will quickly find out that there is no substance behind them. All major exchanges have made it pretty clear recently

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Quote from: megynacuna on March 19, 2017, 04:59:52 PM

***

It will kill Bitcoin in the sense that it will kill people's interest especially the newbies and the yet to know people, but we know together we form the decentralized technology behind Bitcoin and so if we loose the numbers we loose Bitcoin. Secondly comparing Bitcoin to fiat doesn't add up here because with the banks and the fiat you know people have no choice than to use it in their daily activities but with Bitcoin they can choose to abandon it if the fees are high so I think we should know where to draw the line.

I think that main line you see already that cap BTC have. Without any changes i don't see major BTC rise against inflation.
BTC today stay at limit that alone without community Segwit/LN or BU it won't pass.
Once you stop evolving you will slide down because ctypo won't wait for BTC.
This is like EU all see its dying bu noone can pass changes and only fall can bring revolution.
Same time countries in Asia don't wait for EU and evolve and have +5 GDP.

Alts will improve because of high competition in market share, BTC will fall slowly off even from mainstream radars.
I want BU miners make HF and move on their own chain, let other create segwit/LN and we will see what market will chose.
Enchanted BTC core or forked alt BU if this is only solution let it be, best chain will win.

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Quote from: pearlmen on March 19, 2017, 03:01:50 AM

I don't think the fees will kill bitcoin even in the real world specifically banking sector where mirage of fees is being charged even sometimes enormous, people still use the banks and most times the fees are low compared to the importance of is to be achieved. Aside that, the bank will provide alternative means of reducing the fees and that's exactly what will happen to bitcoin later where other means of reducing the fees will be implemented for everyone use.

It will kill Bitcoin in the sense that it will kill people's interest especially the newbies and the yet to know people, but we know together we form the decentralized technology behind Bitcoin and so if we loose the numbers we loose Bitcoin. Secondly comparing Bitcoin to fiat doesn't add up here because with the banks and the fiat you know people have no choice than to use it in their daily activities but with Bitcoin they can choose to abandon it if the fees are high so I think we should know where to draw the line.

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Quote from: geopolisch on March 19, 2017, 04:28:55 AM

***
There is a discussion about using altcoins for small transactions (and bitcoins for just investments) to reduce the network traffic. I am not sure about higher mining fees will not come down or not and persisting at higher level will kill bitcoins, only time may answer.

If Segwit will be available and then LN will be used as same as alt-coins you propose.
If BTC will scary people from using BTC to expensive people will switch to alts ( such like LN )
Then people will have people if convert such alt again into BTC, because at time when needed BTC is just not useful anymore.
I would go into crore segwit proposal then LN.
LN will act like alts today,Many people today chose ETH/Doge/Dash because fees are ridiculous and confirmation times.
If user have shit product like BTC now and swith to alt like ETH he won't come back guys.
Such guy can go back when major ETH network issue accure and BTC will have stuff like LN.

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Quote from: naidray on March 17, 2017, 01:04:15 PM

Quote from: danherbias07 on March 17, 2017, 11:25:25 AM

Quote from: NEWGOODOUBLE on March 17, 2017, 06:12:33 AM

you need a large fee to get the trasaction and confirmation that fast. I think this has strayed far from the tagline bitcoin with cheap and fast fee like some years before? lol

Yes that line is out. But it is not bitcoin fault but ours.
Miners just need something to make them work harder. Although it is really bad and kind of greedy and also it is like giving special treatment to those who can afford. What is the difference now between bitcoin transactions and paypal or western union.
I kind of stayed here for that reason at start though it changed from time it is still not a good look.

Yes, eventually that tagline of cheap and fast transactions is being fading because neither they are fast now nor they are cheap. The only solution I see to this problem is limiting the number of transactions people make.

For example you make 10 transactions a day where 3-4 of them are such that you can make them in a single shot then actually that would help. It is like people need to understand how to send multiple payments in a single transaction.

I think Bitcoin is still cheap today, but faster seems to be fading due to lots of unconfirmed transaction or even delayed for several days. The Bitcoin developer should act fast to have a consensus on how to solve this problem. The situation is not funny anymore. And limiting transaction does not solve the problem, besides this action will be annoying to people who loves to move their Bitcoin around, either by playing gambling games, shopping online or investing in trades and other business ventures. Do not limit Bitcoins movement, it is healthy for the network.

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Quote from: pearlmen on March 19, 2017, 03:01:50 AM

I don't think the fees will kill bitcoin even in the real world specifically banking sector where mirage of fees is being charged even sometimes enormous, people still use the banks and most times the fees are low compared to the importance of is to be achieved. Aside that, the bank will provide alternative means of reducing the fees and that's exactly what will happen to bitcoin later where other means of reducing the fees will be implemented for everyone use.

i also do not think that the transaction fee is going to kill bitcoin, but i think it will effect bitcoin too much. i think it is too much important that that fee should be minim and should not be increasing so frequently if you want to see bitcoin as more reliable and trusted.

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Quote from: Xester on March 19, 2017, 05:39:05 AM

Quote from: geopolisch on March 19, 2017, 04:28:55 AM

Quote from: pearlmen on March 19, 2017, 03:01:50 AM

I don't think the fees will kill bitcoin even in the real world specifically banking sector where mirage of fees is being charged even sometimes enormous, people still use the banks and most times the fees are low compared to the importance of is to be achieved. Aside that, the bank will provide alternative means of reducing the fees and that's exactly what will happen to bitcoin later where other means of reducing the fees will be implemented for everyone use.

We all can agree on the fact that the bitcoin attracted most of us because it was a simple easy fast way of sending money, but with it becoming more popular and the price rising with every day it is starting to take a long time to send it, we used to be able to send bitcoin without fees and we will receive it immediately, but right now with more transactions to deal with and bitcoin getting harder to mine there will be now surprise that we will see the transaction fees also increasing. Miners demand for it.

There is a discussion about using altcoins for small transactions (and bitcoins for just investments) to reduce the network traffic. I am not sure about higher mining fees will not come down or not and persisting at higher level will kill bitcoins, only time may answer.

We dont need to worry anymore about higher fees. If you have heard that bitcoin unlimited has lost its battle against the core developers then bitcoin will take a twist as segwit will be used in mining and the blocks will be increased and transactions will be processed much faster. Sooner or later lower mining fees will be implemented and all of us will be happy

I'm also expecting something to that tune

I read an article yesterday which claimed that supermajority of Bitcoin full nodes are SegWit ready already. So whatever fork mining pools might choose to use in the end, their decision will be irrelevant if these nodes (read ordinary Bitcoin users like you and me) won't support it. If they start mining their alt-Bitcoin but folks won't take it (read vote against it with their money), these mining pools will end up shooting themselves in the foot, and they will be simply losing real money, time and effort mining useless and worthless coin. In short, more power to the them

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I get the feeling wallets are "overdoing" fees when it's totally unnecessary.

1. There are currently 1480 Unconfirmed Transactions.
2. bitcoinfees.21.co claims the "fastest and cheapest" transaction fee is 220 satoshi/byte, resulting in 49,720 satoshis for a 226 bytes transaction. (is this site owned by miners?)
3. btc.com says the current best transaction fee is 20 satoshis/byte, less than 10% of the recommendation from bullet point 2:

The above screenshot shows that most transactions with less than 10 satoshi per byte confirm quickly.

Now, what fees were used in the last 4 blocks?
457952: 55987037 satoshis for 998.18 KB resulting in 54.8 sat/byte
457951: 141344188 satoshis for 998.064 KB resulting in 138.3 sat/byte
457950: 206531288 satoshis for 998.136 KB resulting in 202.1 sat/byte
457949: 171280224 satoshis for 996.719 KB resulting in 167.8 sat/byte

I can only conclude wallet software is now massively over-estimating the required fee for a fast transaction, and we're all paying much more fees than needed when there aren't many unconfirmed transactions waiting.
And even worse, when there are a many transactions waiting, these same fees still mean we wait long.

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Quote from: truimpheriues on March 19, 2017, 05:43:41 AM

this now problem not only mining fee
but this now big problem about bitcoin unlimited and follower, bitcoin price is down because about bitcoin unlimited issue
The first problem to be solved about bitcoin unlimited, and then about fee and fast time transaction

Only the people accept segwit will this problem be solved. I can not believe that those lunatics keep believing in Bitcoin unlimited blindly. It is a tool for the China to control the whole Bitcoin system. It will eventually kill Bitcoin if it is activated in the future.

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this now problem not only mining fee
but this now big problem about bitcoin unlimited and follower, bitcoin price is down because about bitcoin unlimited issue
The first problem to be solved about bitcoin unlimited, and then about fee and fast time transaction

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Quote from: geopolisch on March 19, 2017, 04:28:55 AM

Quote from: pearlmen on March 19, 2017, 03:01:50 AM

I don't think the fees will kill bitcoin even in the real world specifically banking sector where mirage of fees is being charged even sometimes enormous, people still use the banks and most times the fees are low compared to the importance of is to be achieved. Aside that, the bank will provide alternative means of reducing the fees and that's exactly what will happen to bitcoin later where other means of reducing the fees will be implemented for everyone use.

We all can agree on the fact that the bitcoin attracted most of us because it was a simple easy fast way of sending money, but with it becoming more popular and the price rising with every day it is starting to take a long time to send it, we used to be able to send bitcoin without fees and we will receive it immediately, but right now with more transactions to deal with and bitcoin getting harder to mine there will be now surprise that we will see the transaction fees also increasing. Miners demand for it.

There is a discussion about using altcoins for small transactions (and bitcoins for just investments) to reduce the network traffic. I am not sure about higher mining fees will not come down or not and persisting at higher level will kill bitcoins, only time may answer.

We dont need to worry anymore about higher fees. If you have heard that bitcoin unlimited has lost its battle against the core developers then bitcoin will take a twist as segwit will be used in mining and the blocks will be increased and transactions will be processed much faster. Sooner or later lower mining fees will be implemented and all of us will be happy.

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