Before the 21M bitcoins being totally mined I'm sure till then technology advances enough to fork bitcoin using new methods/technologies.
So ETF was only rejected because of the state of the network 100 years from now?
Topic: Mining fees will eventually kill bitcoin - page 2. (Read 6474 times)
I don't think the fees will kill bitcoin even in the real world specifically banking sector where mirage of fees is being charged even sometimes enormous, people still use the banks and most times the fees are low compared to the importance of is to be achieved. Aside that, the bank will provide alternative means of reducing the fees and that's exactly what will happen to bitcoin later where other means of reducing the fees will be implemented for everyone use.
We all can agree on the fact that the bitcoin attracted most of us because it was a simple easy fast way of sending money, but with it becoming more popular and the price rising with every day it is starting to take a long time to send it, we used to be able to send bitcoin without fees and we will receive it immediately, but right now with more transactions to deal with and bitcoin getting harder to mine there will be now surprise that we will see the transaction fees also increasing. Miners demand for it.There is a discussion about using altcoins for small transactions (and bitcoins for just investments) to reduce the network traffic. I am not sure about higher mining fees will not come down or not and persisting at higher level will kill bitcoins, only time may answer.
I don't think the fees will kill bitcoin even in the real world specifically banking sector where mirage of fees is being charged even sometimes enormous, people still use the banks and most times the fees are low compared to the importance of is to be achieved. Aside that, the bank will provide alternative means of reducing the fees and that's exactly what will happen to bitcoin later where other means of reducing the fees will be implemented for everyone use.
you need a large fee to get the trasaction and confirmation that fast. I think this has strayed far from the tagline bitcoin with cheap and fast fee like some years before? lol
Yes, fees is seemingly more because the price of bitcoins is very high too actually. If you spend 0.0004 btc fees on a transaction and the rate is $1200 then actually you spend $0.5 on a say around $100 transaction which is still less as compared to paypal who charge like $2 - $3 for the same and yet the reversible worry all the time. But I agree with all that the fees should be reduced somehow please.
Mining fee is what motivate the miners to keep mining for traders and generally transactions bitcoin are made possible through activities of miners. So without mining no bitcoin and without bitcoin no transactions and without transactions no fee to pay.
LOL, that's really shit. The miners are too greedy to take more fees from every transaction. It looks like they are not care about the bitcoin scalability problem and try to vote on the wrong way and it means killing the bitcoin in the future. I don't agree with your opinion. Actually I think high tx fees are limiting the number of transactions which indeed is good, tx should be more healthy in amount than in numbers
And how can you tell a more healthy transaction from a less healthy one?
You should also take into account that it is still possible to flood the network with spammy transactions of just 1 satoshi each irrespective of whether they have fees or not, or whether miners are going to confirm them or not. In this manner, your distinction between healthy and unhealthy transactions is technically irrelevant. Other than that, the transaction processing network should be organized in such a way that it could digest any number of transactions. In other words, it should be made impervious transaction wise. In practice, that would mean that a spammer wouldn't be able to send more transactions (e.g. due to the limits of his Internet connection) that the network could process
Mining fee is what motivate the miners to keep mining for traders and generally transactions bitcoin are made possible through activities of miners. So without mining no bitcoin and without bitcoin no transactions and without transactions no fee to pay.
LOL, that's really shit. The miners are too greedy to take more fees from every transaction. It looks like they are not care about the bitcoin scalability problem and try to vote on the wrong way and it means killing the bitcoin in the future. I don't agree with your opinion. Actually I think high tx fees are limiting the number of transactions which indeed is good, tx should be more healthy in amount than in numbers.
The fact that fee will eventually grow as the reward for mining a block gets lower has always been part of the plan on the development of bitcoin, the issue here is there is not a solution backed by everyone to make bitcoin scale.
Now that the SEC has rejected the Winklevoss bitcoin ETF, I decided to actually glance through their S-1 (registration statement) that they filed with the SEC just for the heck of it. The S-1 requires a statement and discussion of possible risks associated with a security that is seeking SEC registration. In the Winklevoss S-1, I found this section particularly noteworthy (emphasis is original):
Not only is this a risk that they highlighted, my view is this is inevitable, and that mining fees will eventually become prohibitive not only to bitcoin expansion, but everyday bitcoin function. This is the flaw that will eventually render bitcoin unusable for everyday commerce, and the price will decline accordingly as demand for coins falls off as a result.
Mining fees will eventually kill bitcoin, the question is if this is avoidable with some type of change, or a predetermined fate that cannot be altered due to the nature of the ecosystem?
Yes, it's a crucial problem when bitcoin generated by miners decreases overtime which the price of bitcoin will increase so that with the fees. Imagine if you need to pay fee BTC0.0009 equal to $1 to send BTC0.05, but in the future BTC0.0009 may equal to $10, I don't know exactly number, how much we have to pay, but my last transaction takes $1.4 and more than 12 hours to get confirmed, what a loss for bitcoin I thought. Quote
As the number of Bitcoins awarded for solving a block in the Blockchain decreases, the incentive for miners to continue to contribute processing power to the Bitcoin Network will transition from a set reward to transaction fees. The requirement from miners of higher transaction fees in exchange for recording transactions in the Blockchain may decrease demand for Bitcoins and prevent the expansion of the Bitcoin Network to retail merchants and commercial businesses, resulting in a reduction in the Blended Bitcoin Price.
If transaction fees paid for the recording of transactions in the Blockchain become too high, the marketplace may be reluctant to accept Bitcoins as a means of payment and existing users may be motivated to switch from Bitcoins to another Digital Math-Based Asset or back to fiat currency. Decreased use and demand for Bitcoins may adversely affect their value and result in a reduction in the Blended Bitcoin Price.
If transaction fees paid for the recording of transactions in the Blockchain become too high, the marketplace may be reluctant to accept Bitcoins as a means of payment and existing users may be motivated to switch from Bitcoins to another Digital Math-Based Asset or back to fiat currency. Decreased use and demand for Bitcoins may adversely affect their value and result in a reduction in the Blended Bitcoin Price.
Not only is this a risk that they highlighted, my view is this is inevitable, and that mining fees will eventually become prohibitive not only to bitcoin expansion, but everyday bitcoin function. This is the flaw that will eventually render bitcoin unusable for everyday commerce, and the price will decline accordingly as demand for coins falls off as a result.
Mining fees will eventually kill bitcoin, the question is if this is avoidable with some type of change, or a predetermined fate that cannot be altered due to the nature of the ecosystem?
you need a large fee to get the trasaction and confirmation that fast. I think this has strayed far from the tagline bitcoin with cheap and fast fee like some years before? lol
Yes that line is out. But it is not bitcoin fault but ours.
Miners just need something to make them work harder. Although it is really bad and kind of greedy and also it is like giving special treatment to those who can afford. What is the difference now between bitcoin transactions and paypal or western union.
I kind of stayed here for that reason at start though it changed from time it is still not a good look.
For example you make 10 transactions a day where 3-4 of them are such that you can make them in a single shot then actually that would help. It is like people need to understand how to send multiple payments in a single transaction.
Limiting the number of transactions that people could make isn't really a solution I think. That's one of the key aspects of Bitcoins.
The fact that there are entities spamming the network shouldn't be used to limit the rights of other people, we just need a seperate solution for that.
you need a large fee to get the trasaction and confirmation that fast. I think this has strayed far from the tagline bitcoin with cheap and fast fee like some years before? lol
Yes that line is out. But it is not bitcoin fault but ours.
Miners just need something to make them work harder. Although it is really bad and kind of greedy and also it is like giving special treatment to those who can afford. What is the difference now between bitcoin transactions and paypal or western union.
I kind of stayed here for that reason at start though it changed from time it is still not a good look.
For example you make 10 transactions a day where 3-4 of them are such that you can make them in a single shot then actually that would help. It is like people need to understand how to send multiple payments in a single transaction.
I think the current fee situation is several years premature. The block reward still makes up the large majority of miner payment. I don't know how much fee head room is left before people start shopping elsewhere.
Some bitcoin fans act like it has already won. Maybe they'll still be here after everyone else has reached their breaking point and they'll have wonderfully cheap fees again because there won't be any transactions.
Right now everyone should be all out to on board as many people as possible. Very few have a genuine need to use it, they just want to use it and that's slowly eroding.
Whoever started that sakes pitch was very stupid. This was always going to happen but it's happening far too soon.
Some bitcoin fans act like it has already won. Maybe they'll still be here after everyone else has reached their breaking point and they'll have wonderfully cheap fees again because there won't be any transactions.
Right now everyone should be all out to on board as many people as possible. Very few have a genuine need to use it, they just want to use it and that's slowly eroding.
you need a large fee to get the trasaction and confirmation that fast. I think this has strayed far from the tagline bitcoin with cheap and fast fee like some years before? lol
Whoever started that sakes pitch was very stupid. This was always going to happen but it's happening far too soon.
you need a large fee to get the trasaction and confirmation that fast. I think this has strayed far from the tagline bitcoin with cheap and fast fee like some years before? lol
Yes that line is out. But it is not bitcoin fault but ours.
Miners just need something to make them work harder. Although it is really bad and kind of greedy and also it is like giving special treatment to those who can afford. What is the difference now between bitcoin transactions and paypal or western union.
I kind of stayed here for that reason at start though it changed from time it is still not a good look.
Now that the SEC has rejected the Winklevoss bitcoin ETF, I decided to actually glance through their S-1 (registration statement) that they filed with the SEC just for the heck of it. The S-1 requires a statement and discussion of possible risks associated with a security that is seeking SEC registration. In the Winklevoss S-1, I found this section particularly noteworthy (emphasis is original):
Not only is this a risk that they highlighted, my view is this is inevitable, and that mining fees will eventually become prohibitive not only to bitcoin expansion, but everyday bitcoin function. This is the flaw that will eventually render bitcoin unusable for everyday commerce, and the price will decline accordingly as demand for coins falls off as a result.
Mining fees will eventually kill bitcoin, the question is if this is avoidable with some type of change, or a predetermined fate that cannot be altered due to the nature of the ecosystem?
Quote
As the number of Bitcoins awarded for solving a block in the Blockchain decreases, the incentive for miners to continue to contribute processing power to the Bitcoin Network will transition from a set reward to transaction fees. The requirement from miners of higher transaction fees in exchange for recording transactions in the Blockchain may decrease demand for Bitcoins and prevent the expansion of the Bitcoin Network to retail merchants and commercial businesses, resulting in a reduction in the Blended Bitcoin Price.
If transaction fees paid for the recording of transactions in the Blockchain become too high, the marketplace may be reluctant to accept Bitcoins as a means of payment and existing users may be motivated to switch from Bitcoins to another Digital Math-Based Asset or back to fiat currency. Decreased use and demand for Bitcoins may adversely affect their value and result in a reduction in the Blended Bitcoin Price.
If transaction fees paid for the recording of transactions in the Blockchain become too high, the marketplace may be reluctant to accept Bitcoins as a means of payment and existing users may be motivated to switch from Bitcoins to another Digital Math-Based Asset or back to fiat currency. Decreased use and demand for Bitcoins may adversely affect their value and result in a reduction in the Blended Bitcoin Price.
Not only is this a risk that they highlighted, my view is this is inevitable, and that mining fees will eventually become prohibitive not only to bitcoin expansion, but everyday bitcoin function. This is the flaw that will eventually render bitcoin unusable for everyday commerce, and the price will decline accordingly as demand for coins falls off as a result.
Mining fees will eventually kill bitcoin, the question is if this is avoidable with some type of change, or a predetermined fate that cannot be altered due to the nature of the ecosystem?
If what stated on the statement is correct then it is sure that in the coming days Bitcoin future is very bad in shape due to heavy transaction charges, so as stated it is also good for other altcoin which are having good platform which can over take bitcoin, and in that ETH is on first race to opt Bitcoin future.
Mining fees are going to be a problem that we face at the moment but people are going to have to come to the conclusion that the miners are going to be needed to be compensated somehow, as the amount of new coins being generated by the bitcoin network are halving as we all know it.
This makes everything less and less profitable for the miners which in turn makes it less likely that people are going to be mining, let along spending hundred of thousands of dollars in machines that are never going to pay themselves off. The mining fees are the part that is helping to fill the gap from the halving, but I do know that this issue is going to have to be faced as no one wants to spend a huge percentage of what they're going to be buying on fees for using it
This makes everything less and less profitable for the miners which in turn makes it less likely that people are going to be mining, let along spending hundred of thousands of dollars in machines that are never going to pay themselves off. The mining fees are the part that is helping to fill the gap from the halving, but I do know that this issue is going to have to be faced as no one wants to spend a huge percentage of what they're going to be buying on fees for using it
Did you ever ask yourself that these machines should not be there in the first place?
That mining as it is today is a waste of resources mostly (waste of money, time, effort and whatnot)? That you don't need all those huge mining farms to confirm transactions? That Bitcoin network security doesn't depend on how much hashing power is required to find a new block? That it depends first and foremost on the number of independent miners and that any typical computer could confirm transactions as good as any advanced mining farm out there? And that in the latter case fees would be close to negligible?
Mining fees are going to be a problem that we face at the moment but people are going to have to come to the conclusion that the miners are going to be needed to be compensated somehow, as the amount of new coins being generated by the bitcoin network are halving as we all know it.
This makes everything less and less profitable for the miners which in turn makes it less likely that people are going to be mining, let along spending hundred of thousands of dollars in machines that are never going to pay themselves off. The mining fees are the part that is helping to fill the gap from the halving, but I do know that this issue is going to have to be faced as no one wants to spend a huge percentage of what they're going to be buying on fees for using it.
Segwit please.
This makes everything less and less profitable for the miners which in turn makes it less likely that people are going to be mining, let along spending hundred of thousands of dollars in machines that are never going to pay themselves off. The mining fees are the part that is helping to fill the gap from the halving, but I do know that this issue is going to have to be faced as no one wants to spend a huge percentage of what they're going to be buying on fees for using it.
Segwit please.
We all knew fees would play a paper once all coins full mined, we didnt know we would have to start paying bigger fees now to miners proces the same transactions as they made in the past since now each satoshis has much more value. It were to keep the same fees or atleast reduce the fee, but looks like miners wanna go other way, and those might damage a lot bitcoin.
This is due to the the problem on the bitcoin mining sector. Blocksize problem has caused tremendous problems on the network, one is the high miner fees and the other one is the long confirmation of transaction. Well to add the last probably and one of the disappointing fact is the disapproval of the ETF due to blocksize problems.
We are all know that mining are not much profitable now but here a big thing is that where will go the miners who are spending thier money for mining , So usually time to time the fee increases by the network of bitcoin So that the more and more person try to make some better earning and support the bitcoin network to make the transaction much smooth .
Well here I will say that the increase in the fee is only a step to increase the future of bitcoin at a great level .
This will not kill the bitcoin future at all
For all your ardor and enthusiasm, I think you don't quite understand how things work in respect to mining
First, we all don't know how profitable is mining, so it's no good to make such sweeping assumptions. But ultimately, this is irrelevant since mining will always remain profitable by definition. There is absolutely no need to make it look as if low mining profits somehow justify high transaction fees. Raising fees in every possible way is used to maximize mining profits, but this is possible only because the whole concept behind mining is skewed. I don't mean mining itself as a process of confirming transactions, of course. I rather mean the model behind mining which makes possible heavy centralization (read monopolization) of mining, which is what the real culprit behind miners trying to squeeze profits from every dollar spent
We all knew fees would play a paper once all coins full mined, we didnt know we would have to start paying bigger fees now to miners proces the same transactions as they made in the past since now each satoshis has much more value. It were to keep the same fees or atleast reduce the fee, but looks like miners wanna go other way, and those might damage a lot bitcoin.
This is due to the the problem on the bitcoin mining sector. Blocksize problem has caused tremendous problems on the network, one is the high miner fees and the other one is the long confirmation of transaction. Well to add the last probably and one of the disappointing fact is the disapproval of the ETF due to blocksize problems.
We are all know that mining are not much profitable now but here a big thing is that where will go the miners who are spending thier money for mining , So usually time to time the fee increases by the network of bitcoin So that the more and more person try to make some better earning and support the bitcoin network to make the transaction much smooth .
Well here I will say that the increase in the fee is only a step to increase the future of bitcoin at a great level .
This will not kill the bitcoin future at all .
We all knew fees would play a paper once all coins full mined, we didnt know we would have to start paying bigger fees now to miners proces the same transactions as they made in the past since now each satoshis has much more value. It were to keep the same fees or atleast reduce the fee, but looks like miners wanna go other way, and those might damage a lot bitcoin.
This is due to the the problem on the bitcoin mining sector. Blocksize problem has caused tremendous problems on the network, one is the high miner fees and the other one is the long confirmation of transaction. Well to add the last probably and one of the disappointing fact is the disapproval of the ETF due to blocksize problems.
You got my point absolutely wrong
First of all, Bitcoin transactions cannot be scarce by definition, otherwise blocks wouldn't be full (according to your logic). There is an outright contradiction in these few sentences above, i.e. transactions are scarce while blocks are full (that's an impossible combination).
Maybe we have a different definition of the word "transaction". When I say "transaction", maybe I should have used the word "confirmed transaction". It's not that Bitcoin has a lack of people wanting to make transactions, the scarcity limits the number of possible transactions that can be confirmedFirst of all, Bitcoin transactions cannot be scarce by definition, otherwise blocks wouldn't be full (according to your logic). There is an outright contradiction in these few sentences above, i.e. transactions are scarce while blocks are full (that's an impossible combination).
I don't quite agree with your usage of the term scarcity in respect to confirmed transactions, but let's use that. And what makes you think this "scarcity" is not created deliberately to raise fees even higher? Basically, you are trying to explain things from a free market point of view when there is no such market, to begin with
Suppose Bitcoin could handle 8 times more transactions. Fees would be lower, but more transactions means more fees anyway. And more importantly: Bitcoin could facilitate 8 times more users, which means the price could go up an order of magnitude. How can miners not see this?
As I said above, the free market outlook cannot be applied here for the lack of this market in the first place
So your base assumption is erroneous. There won't be many more transactions, therefore increasing block size will just reveal the miners' wrong-doing. Apart from that, I'm heavily inclined to think that the number of valid transactions (i.e. not spammy ones, probably generated by miners themselves) are decreasing overall. Not because Bitcoin user base is shrinking, but simply because people are finding workarounds to escape higher fees and use services (like web wallets and exchangers) that make offchain transactions possible or just group payments to lower the total fee amount per transaction
you need a large fee to get the trasaction and confirmation that fast. I think this has strayed far from the tagline bitcoin with cheap and fast fee like some years before? lol
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