Topic: Mixers that mix bitcoin without letting it be obvious that it came from a mixer? (Read 1465 times)

first of all.. come to the realisation of the real world.
lets say murder is a crime in the real world.. correct?
but then someone makes a system where it says if you stand on a yellow brick/paving slab then you are using the yellow brick system. and over years people paint paving bricks yellow so they can be part of some system.. that does something else..

this then does not mean that when they are standing on a yellow brick, real world crimes/laws are no longer valid.
the delusion that people can just stand on a yellow brick and then shoot someone in the real world and think they are immune from prosecution because yellow brick system said rules dont allow prosecutions  in yellow brick system,

the real world still exists. this is why even before bitcoin/eth was a currency. people doing drugs and murder for hire were getting caught..

however financial crimes are different to murder. and do have limits and jurisdictions and loopholes

now lets say years ago the government treated ethereum(yellow brick) as just a pokemon card or pokemon go hotspot. (not literally pokemon.. im just saying a collectable thats not treated as a currency)

where people trade something not deemed as currency.. thus government didnt care much for treating these trading spots as currency businesses but instead as playing card swap shops.(not literally 'trading card' but analogously as product)
then in recent years they realised that these trading spots were trading real value, and so defined ethereum(yellowbrick) as a currency system. where by now the banking laws apply to businesses on yellow bricks
meaning those businesses have to follow currency laws. including watching out for things on the watchlists of currency regulators.

if you check the FAFT regulations. even just the glossary. it defines many financial service businesses as a form of VASP, and yea mixers do trades/swaps of currencies on behalf of others for a fee..
VASP are not just exchanges but financial businesses (business offering a service for a fee) that do transfers on behalf of other users/customers(not verbatim so do research)
https://www.fatf-gafi.org/glossary/u-z/

and no this does not mean developers that just release coded software
and no this is not miners, nor node users

so by cryptocurrencies now deemed as currencies under government acknowledgement. its no longer the realms of just trading a product/asset of pre 2014
...

yea although many people enjoy the blessings of being deemed a legal currency gave hem extra notority of mainstreaming when being deemed currency.. but with great power comes great responsibility.. where by it also comes with jurisdictional control over businesses that operate in currency. meaning more rules

you ant knit pick one and then ignore the other.
hense why i have been saying dont rely on the rules of currency protections(privacy under the bank secrecy act)
and try to make things as "property rights" like the realms of collectables outside the currency jurisdiction
like how governments treat NFT not as a currency but a product and how NFT platforms are not regulated the same as currency exchanges..
.. do you get the hints, yep i gave you another spoon-feed, hope you can swallow this one and take it in and digest it
(i cant even believe after weeks no one thought to do research and take the hints and came to the idea themselves to say "do you mean property like NFT" by now)
..
note.. think even deeper, use your brain and actually think.. inspire yourself about a tool thats even a few steps ahead of NFT to escape the jurisdiction of currency rules


read all the people in this topic and anyone talking about tornado cash in relation to their views point it at a conspiracy that has/could/did/will (any tense ) that may cause a [insert any synonym of coder/dev/software creator] may be at risk on [insert any cryptocurrency]


..
yea dont go playing games that you or others are saying "but we never verbatim said X" even if the FUD conspiracy whisper tries to cause fear to those even in X

like you.. "set a precedence"

the case is clear its clear what its about.. the financial profits/gains(proceeds of crime/aiding and abetting) ..
by ignoring that part.. is where the speculation begins where silly people then set new narratives to put fear ans scare and stories of trying to cause fear.. by trying too hard to ignore what the crime was. to then pretend it was something else.. just to then set a narrative


.
so here goes one last time (not verbatim .. SO DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH)
if you operate a business that offers a financial service of you managing the transfers of funds for a commission(fee) you receive, your a vasp. and should be licenced/regulated (which is why you see some mixers now doing blacklisting and kyx)

if you are a customer of above you may be KYCed

if you operate a business that offers a financial service of you managing the transfers of funds for a commission you receive,where that money is involved in potential crime or doing suspicious activity.. or suspicion because you have not become a MSB.... you get on a watch list(the vasps that dont follow or have weak KYC/CDD)

if you are a customer of above you get on a watch list if that service is not complying with regulations or your activities as show to be linked to things like mixers

if you operate a business that offers a financial service of you managing the transfers of funds for a commission you receive, where that money is involved in actual crime.. you get into trouble

I don’t want to ignore it. Im just unsure here, if it’s a service that is open to anyone and he couldn’t know who uses it, then to me it’s not participating actively. If he actually knew, then it’s another story. If he knew profits are stolen he should’ve never used them and actually inform law enforcement about it. Im just asking myself what a service that is truly private could do in a situation like this(tornado cash probably wasn’t), when they actually couldnt know about their service being abused, but it would still count as helping in crimes. Because then the problem arises that it would become mandatory to not allow full privacy for customers, when offering services.

Who ever said this? Also tornado cash is developed on ethereum i think. That people get alert in a case like this is just obvious, especially when there’s so much room for speculation and only little confirmed information yet.

To me it seems like this case could set a precedence tho, so it’s not just about him.

i know you want to ignore the parts of any involvement by tornado cash coder in the over 1bill.. but you neglect this part too

he is not being arrested for being a code. he is being arrested for actively facilitating and profiting from the 1billion launder. where he made large scale profits from it.

you also want to think there was no charge or official court stuff.. where as you also forget/neglect

its not a case of "he is just a bitcoin coder so all bitcoin coders should now be afraid.

its that he actively was involved in and received a fee for facilitating criminals

its called aiding and abetting AND proceeds of crime
                     the action..     AND    the profiteering

from what i can see.. he can then probably be in a case related to being extradited to the US to face the penalties of the SEC sanctions filing too

Let’s wait for the actual case then, because none of this is stated in the official press release¹. Apparently 7 billion dollars passed trough the service, with 1 billion being of criminal origins. Then the question remains if he actually participated actively or passively(by running a service criminals abused). If simply providing this service will be judged as illegal then my point remains as above. If he actively was part of this and gets judged individually then you’re right.

¹ https://www.fiod.nl/arrest-of-suspected-developer-of-tornado-cash/

he was not arrested for just making a tool. and then handing it off and not being part of its latter use..

he was found to have taken a active and involved part its use, and also he received a fee from facilitating the vietnam hackers transactions..

might be worth you doing independent research as the story you are following seems to be the social drama misinterpretation game that pretends to not know what he was arrested for so they can insert any speculation they like for an agenda


not unproven.. i already said look and do research..
i gave all the hints without spoonfeeding.. so now its upto you..


there are many posts in this topic and others from the same dozen people that have said they beleive he was arrested for just being a coder.. heck even you in your response today have made that assumption too
here ill quote you
and no dont then say that (although your summary suggests the same narrative, because you now change a few synonyms or tenses or other small bits that you can pretend..) you have not been trying to say the same summary of thinking he was just being arrested for making a tool (aka the failed "not verbatim" misdirect)
and no knit picking that the lack of verbatim doesnt mean the context summarises your opinion to be the same contextually.. so dont play grammar games of distraction.. (its useless)



by you not doing the research to know what events actually took place.. you took AS QUOTED the SPECULATED conspiracy whisper theory narrative and the opinion that all he done was make a tool.. and then you set a narrative that the government is overreaching by arresting someone for just writing a tool(not verbatim)
yep YOUR summary of why the arrest occurred (your summary is wrong), because its based on a lack of research..


yep you are trying to play the same false narrative of saying its about just writing a tool(insert synonym of coder/developer. insert any tense pre-current-post)

so i debunked your buddies but it seems now you want to chime in to reset the debate as if the corrections didnt happen..... by you now double downing on that warped opinion.. just to get me post again about the same thing..
(yes not the first time the 12buddy group tried this tactic to take turns, each time one of them get debunked)
so now i have to correct you too..

..
dont reply until you have done the research on what actions he actually was involved in(actively facilitating and taking a fee for the actual laundered funds(thus aided and abetted)) and why he got arrested and sanctioned.
oh and he was charged. thats why at the hearing they decided there was enough to keep him in jail until trial(and he is a flight risk if released on bail)

.. and no dont reply that you are going to ignore the reasons because you dont want to believe the reasons or they dont fit your buddy script handed narrative you pass each other in whispers, lost in translations and misunderstandings..
just go do the research.. form an independant opinion that doesnt sound like a script of a groups naive summary...  and reply with facts and reality. not speculation and whispers and conspiracy theories

I was gone for 2 weeks and still the same exact bs, you deserve the medal of cognitive dissonance and a better leash from the state after your service. Good boy franky.

By the governments logic, someone who builds bombs and kills people for them is a hero, and someone who writes tools to protect privacy against a more and more overreaching state is someone who assists crimes and should be jailed. Following this logic leads to nowhere in the end.

Criminals can use any service or tool, builders shouldn’t be responsible for their userbase, otherwise by this logic we would have to start jailing large parts of companies, because criminals use their products to facilitate crimes too. Why don’t they go after their ISPs now? This whole logic is simply complete bs and just applying it to specific scenarios doesn’t make it just. Mixing itself is not a crime, so it’s just people that gave up their principles of what’s really right, for a jungle of useless laws that have no touch to reality anymore, who would want mixer devs jailed or think it’s right to do this.

These tools aren’t made for criminals, they get caught with or without them. Otherwise we wouldn’t even know that a minority is using them. It proves that privacy doesn’t interfere with the abilities of law enforcement to a meaningful amount. There is enough other traces, so that it doesn’t matter if a mixer was used or not. It is the use of privacy itself that is being criminalised slowly, in a context where the government would like to archive every single penny you’ve ever spent, where it actually has a negative economic + societal impact when a braindead entity gets too many capabilities over their citizens. So either we bow down to some nonsense bureaucrats are trying to introduce again, or we actually stick to principles that we know are right and push back against it. That is actually our constitutional right to do, if people woke up and actually used it. Your call for people to follow the false roads the same entity that doesn’t even have the guts to calculate inflation correctly is trying to lead us to, will simply lead to negative outcomes for everyone. Comply for tyranny and broken economies/ societies?

So it’s nothing more than an unproven idea that you don’t know yourself how to implement, and when property rights wouldn’t protect privacy you would still not change your opinion. It’s too predictable.



Still the same fears of a hidden agenda and putting words into peoples mouth they’ve never even said or thought. Paranoia and projection.

I think it's a personal choice; on the Bisq contributor list for instance, there are pseudonymous accounts and real-name accounts or accounts where the person behind it is known.
https://github.com/bisq-network/bisq/graphs/contributors

Similar in other open-source projects like Wasabi where nopara73 = Adam Ficsor.

There are upsides and downsides to staying behind a pseudonym or not. For instance, if a project of yours gains traction and you start a company, your name will be on it in most countries. Or maybe if you're invited to conferences to show your project, the name could be leaked.

On the other hand, an authority can attempt to go after you - it doesn't have to affect the project, so keeping your privacy wouldn't be a measure for protecting the project but rather protecting yourself.

nope..
again regulations says they are definitely and categorically wanting VASPS to be on the look out for platforms that prioritise anonymity


be smarter.. dont advertise it as "privacy" "anonymity"
instead think about services like exchanges where when you deposit.. you pot coin A in.. but if you ask for a withdrawal . you in most cases getting coin B from another cold wallet.
this is not a privacy/anonymity tool.. this is just a glitch, random event. just a thing.. which exchanges do but are not meant as a feature..

so create a service that doest omit/promise something as a anonymity/privacy feature. but simply does it in a way that just looks like a glitch or side effect or something that is not intended to be used that way, but just happens to

there are other things..
have the mindset to think about how uber got away with taxicab regulations by not promoting themselves as taxicabs..

but also think about how the service operator gets paid..

think about how all them documentaries show how street hustler drug dealers get away with it.

instead of paying a guy and he hands the drugs.. = illegal drug deal..
they instead have a 2 point process.. one person takes the fee.. and then another step then does the deal. that way no one person can be done for doing a deal because that person didnt take the money and hand over the product

i know i was trying to not spell it out too easily for certain people.. but it seems i should atleast unwind he bottle a bit more and give some different people a few idea's to explore

i personally am not into drugs or criminal stuff. but i am into getting people to use their brains and think about things, especially sticking to reality

i dont mean create a service that is then called a swap/exchange/.. call it something else like a "property rights tool" dont explain things as mixing/anonymity/privacy

and dont have it where it can show the service is taking a fee (you know the other law last year about "a person/business doing a transaction on or behalf of another person, for a fee") aka VASP(becoming required to regulate if you were a business doing such for a fee)

think of something new. outside the box..

About what happened to the Tornado cash dev team. This should be expected because you can't provide an anonymous/mixing service and disregard your privacy.
The issue of wasabi wallet using windfury is known because of the disadvantage of an open source code project.
The best way to taint a coin and not let it be obvious that the coin is tainted or mixed is by using DEX especially if the exchange focuses more on anonymous crypto trading just like the Crypton Exchange of Utopia P2P always executed.

I also always supported that governments "can" put anyone in jail, literally anyone for any reason and anytime they want. The problem is not putting someone in jail, the problem is court giving him real jail time, because if you are a suspicious person who did something wrong according to law enforcement and then put to trial, that is just a few days to few weeks at most, then a Judge and Jury finding you guilty is a different thing.

If you are found guilty, that would be weird, and I think he may have "some" involvement with the fact that Tornado wasn't really just kittens and puppies which turned into bad, it was intended to use for exactly this reason and it was used like that and he acted as if "BUT WHY AM I BEING PUNISHED FOR JUST A CODE, THEY WERE THE ONES WHO USED IT BAD" when in fact he meant it to be used badly.

powerglove
YOU are being pedantic with the developer/coder crap to try to escape saying what your saying
YOU are being pedantic with the post/future tense crap to try to escape saying what your saying.

but after all your word play twists of pedantic  synonym time-tense trickery, you then double down again to say you are ignoring how he was actually arrested, to then insert your conspiracy of how it was not about involvement in facilitating laundering for vietnam hackers. and how you want to think of it as being about just creating software(insert any synonym you like for creating software/developing/writing code.. post or future tense)

you are well trained by the dozen trolls that have their agenda to say bitcoin is not fit for purpose and devs should be scared and everyone should move to another network crap they have been shouting for a few years now..


but next time try to do some independent research and actually learn whats happening in the real world. not whats happening according to the whisper game of the social group of trolls/conspiracy nuts that have a agenda


there are many many many thousands of people that do the research, so dont rely on your prospective from the dozen people crowd that do not do research


its actually worth learning things. not relying on buddy whispers of conspiracy and ignorance,.

DO NOT REPLY if you just want to say something about franky... instead spend some time in the real world or learn something about the real world

---

anyways to get back on topic after the 12 member idiot club maybe takes a troll break to do some real research

using a mixer is actually categorically listed as a red flag. as are tumblers and other AEC's and also layering networks/technologies offering privacy and scaling solutions(LN) are mentioned in the regulations
it does not say at all that just using bitcoin in anyway is red flag event

emphasis mixers are categorically listed as red flag triggers of suspicion thus anyone using or making or organising a mixer would be on a watch list.

where by if they then are involved in a criminal act or aid and abet a criminal act they will obviously be handled

this does not mean just developing the software.. this does not mean just being a general bitcoin coder/developer
it does not state this.
nor does it state just being a bitcoin node user or a miner

My bad. It is still important to occasionally debunk his nonsense, else we get in to a CSWesque situation where everyone who knows better just ignores him and then swarms of newbies read his unchallenged posts and think the best way to live their life is with zero privacy and the best way to use bitcoin is to leave it on a centralized exchange and never dare to withdraw it or spend it peer to peer else they end up on some watchlist.

Point A is a strawman. He loves those.
Point B is simping for the government, as he's being doing all thread.
Point C will invite a text wall of ramblings about how he alone has interpreted the law correctly and we are all wrong.

Okay, so if someone points out that you can't read for shit, you can avoid the whole issue by calling it a "silly divert". Where did you pick up that tactic, the latest issue of Smooth Brain Weekly?

Seriously, stop being so paranoid and just try to have a normal conversation...

My post contained three points which I'll elaborate on in an ill-advised effort to get to the bottom of this perplexing mess (not the dumpster fire that is this thread, but the confusing exchange we've just had):

Point A

There is a difference between being a developer and writing code. It's like the difference between being a welder and welding something together. One is a job description, the other is an action. I don't believe anybody in this thread ever believed that anyone was arrested based on their job description. Of course, this point is so mind-numbingly stupid that I can't believe I had to make it in the first place, and it wouldn't even have occurred to me, if not for this ridiculous quote of yours:


Point B

Blindly believing that the stated reason for an arrest encapsulates the whole truth and reveals all the motives behind it is shockingly naive.

Point C

This arrest does not bode well for the future. I'm sure that in this instance (Tornado Cash) the developer being involved in more than the coding was a great relief to the authorities because that fact was what allowed the arrest to take place. But, in my opinion, they probably resent that he wrote it at all. I believe that authorities will continue to look for ways to scare developers away from building certain kinds of software, because it's in their interests to do so (from their point of view, the less people working on things that make their lives harder, the better). There's already precedent for trying to control "distribution", and I don't see how future attempts to control "development" can be avoided.

Now, which of those three points do you have an issue with? If you come back at me with some incomprehensible gibberish about how I'm "trying to twist the facts" I'm putting you on ignore.

because you are still trying to twist the facts..
yep you want to pretend its not your claim....  with your new silly divert that the meanings dont mean the same due to some time machine involvement of past/future pretense... even if the context is about claiming that its about arresting developers for just writing code no matter the time machine game you want to play.. to pretend you didnt mean its about developers just writing code. even if you then re hash the same thing by then saying again its about developers just wriging code..


so one last time.. he was not arrested just for writing code. the sanctions are not related to just writing code and they wont be used for just writing code.. he received a fee for being directly involved with facilitating a funds transfer for a criminal.. which is in the regulations.. watchlist/sanction list

also me repeating what he was actually arrested for is because you just said you want to ignore what he was actually arrested for. by pretending the actual arrest wording is a lie. so that you can make up a whole new story to fit your narrative..

see you again want to deny what the actual stated reason is.. yet again to then imply whatever narrative you then want to create

..
as for the derailing..
that game has been done by the certain group. when each person fails and gets debunked up pops their next buddy to start the pokes again and rehash the same silly nonsense that requires that person being debunked.. then when debunked the next pal of the last failed guy pops up.. hopefully by now you ran out of buddies to cry the same cries..

..
so back to the topic.
people need to read regulations and source data of actual things happening so they can actually learn how to work around problems others are falling into..
not be ignorant and pretend there is no explanation or that governments lie and that there is no information. so that you can try to continue in blissfull ignorance doing the same thing as usual and trying to dupe new recruits into your swamps because others got the hint to jump out before they get caught up in the regulatory issues..

using a mixer puts you on a watch list..
running a mixer and receiving a fee puts you on a watch list.
if they investigate you and find links to criminal activity while watching you. expect negative actions

in short. mixers will get you into more trouble than you think and dont protect you as much as you want it to

and for all the cry babies that just want to chant "didnt read wall of text" i made it simple a long time ago

You've got reading comprehension issues if you think I contradicted myself there. Read my post carefully, the first part is talking about the present and the next part is talking about the future...

Yes, I'm perfectly aware of that franky, you covered it in your second-to-last post which I read before posting. How does that affect anything that I wrote?

in one post.. and just a paragraph apart. you say that you think no one i was arguing with is making claims that someone was arrested for simply being a developer....
.. and then you come out and say ""eventually justify the arrest of someone for simply writing code"

see you just done it yourself!!
you just made the claim that you think that developers will get arrested for just writing code(22x facepalms)

---

read the source information not the social media whispers that get lost in translation down the conspiracy hole

he didnt just write code and then release it and then some other nefarious person used it where the developer had nothing to do with the actions after the nefarious person used it as a criminal mixer for hackers..

the developer STAYED INVOLVED and got compensated for his continual involvement by getting fee's from the laundering of the hackers funds..

thats why he got sanctioned (yep thats a charge) and comes with punishment.

so yea he is not just a 'uncharged' suspect.
EG under investigation where they need to gather enough evidence to even arrest someone..

he is arrested for certain crimes and sanctions, where his is suspected of being involved.
yep he been sanctioned. and has already had a hearing that said he has to stay in jail(no bond) until trial

he actually got arrested, and is spending time in jail pending a trial. which from what i can see may also include extradition to the US.
the 90day thing.. is standard practice between hearing and trial to allow both prosecution and defense have time to prepare for trial so they can make their case.

he most likely was not released on bail due to most likely and logically a huge flight risk (knows multiple contact world wide that could shelter him and fund him if he was to jump bail)

..
its not the social media whispers of the police just randomly putting someone in a jail cell for no reason at all..

---

the latest social media whisper trail of lost in transation conspiracy. today is:
that the idiots think the sanction should be thought of being related to russia, to then say he is not related and never done anything russian influenced.. as more idiot cries as silly things of "he didnt trade with russia so release him"1.
2

the actual facts, to clarify it before certain people take more mis-information to go viral with

the sanction is to do with vietnam hackers.not russians.. yep its not just russia on a sanction list.. yep vietnam hackers are also on the list.  yep a separate entity on the US sanctioned entity watch list, that triggered his sanction for actively being involved in their trades and him getting a fee of the trades with vietnam hackers.


..
and before certain people chime in that by me correcting the mis information must make me a government slave.. no.. im just trying to correct idiots so that by having the real information they can react appropriately to fact and not cry about fiction

Me too. I put the guy back on ignore, but he's posted here 39 times and people keep entertaining him (I'm guilty of that a few times too) while he just repeats the same thing over and over again.

This. And since off-topic doesn't seem to get deleted, this topic is useless by now.

Sorry if I'm repeating what someone else has already said, but I find threads like these where franky has an entrenched position to be too exhausting to read properly.

You can't honestly believe that anybody you're arguing with is making the claim that someone was arrested for simply being a developer, can you?

There are two points worth stressing, I think:

Firstly, it's more than a little naive to simply accept their stated reason for arrest as being the whole truth.

Secondly, you're kidding yourself if you think that "facilitating money laundering" won't eventually be used to justify the arrest of someone for simply writing code, the writing is on the wall.

when the government arrest someone.. and they tell the world why he was arrested..,
("involvement in concealing criminal financial flows and facilitating money laundering")
..
then mr dimwhit pretends there was no reason given, and to ignore the governments response. to then repeat "they didnt give a reason" (facepalm)
to then go around saying "he was arrested for [insert any reason mr dim whit fits his narrative"

just shows how you want to ignore actual source info. .. and instead make up anything that fits your narrative..

here is the thing.. if you want to play the ignorance game of ignoring why he was actually arrested for, to suggest there was no reason given.. then guess what.. that also means in your ignorant game.. that he was not arrested for being a dev. because as you say no reason was given..
for all you lack of knowing. he could have been arrested for something unrelated to bitcoin or mixing.. if you want to play your ignorant game.

he could have stolen a mars bar from a 7-11, or murdered someone, or was found drunk driving after a 100mph chase.. so in your ignorant game of pretending to not know/more precisely not doing any research he could have been arrested for any reason.. not the reason you want to then imply..

now lets step out of your silly ignorant game. and take a look at reality
the police DID SAY he was arrested for "involvement in concealing criminal financial flows and facilitating money laundering"

other statements
"Investigations showed that at least one billion dollars' worth of cryptocurrencies of criminal origin passed through the mixer. It is suspected that persons behind this organisation have made large-scale profits from these transactions."

he didnt just make software and then release it.
he then helped USE the software afterwards.. and also facilitate/organise the trades where he received payment for being involved in the trades
...

also he was literally sanctioned.
common sense/logic/research. is showing that part of the closed door court is not just about his criminal profiteering. but also about keeping him detained for longer whilst america decide if they want him extradited from europe to the US to then deal with the US sanctions issue he has been named under
..

it has nothing to do with "just being a developer" Eg just knowing C++
so please stop with your petty little agenda games to scare bitcoin developers into stopping because you want to think that just being a developer is a european crime(you idiot)

---

if you stop using the whispers of social buddy group conspiracy as your source. and actually do research you wil find out the truth

he was arrested, they exchanged his arrest.
he was charged, and he went to a hearing..
the hearing was a closed door hearing. and thats where the rumour mill started. and went backwards from
in the whisper mill order of social drama queens that dont do research

"we didnt get to know what happened in the hearing"
to
"we dont know how he plead or how many other charges are involved"
to
"we didnt get to know if there were any other charges"
to
"we dont know the charges"
to
"he was not charged"
..


i know you might read titles like "suspected developer of tornado arrested" and start whispering that the title must mean the charge..

no

otherwise "suspected financial investor Jeffery epstein arrested" must mean that epsteins only crime was being an investor in your mind

so clear your mind of what your buddys have taught you. and do try some real research

It´s pretty funny to see how Franky aggressivly takes over certain threads. They always turn into ad hominem discussions, while the original topic gets ripped into pieces. He will never ever admit being wrong, so you guys should simply put him on ignore. That will save you a lot of precious time.