Topic: Mixers that mix bitcoin without letting it be obvious that it came from a mixer? - page 6. (Read 1465 times)

Obviously centralized services are sending huge amounts of data to blockchain analysis companies, or in some cases (such as Coinbase) actually running their own blockchain analysis subsidiaries and linking in to all the information they gather from their exchange and the other products and services they offer. Which is part of the reason I have never used such a service and why I am consistently vocal about not using these services, never completing KYC anywhere, using decentralized exchanges to trade peer-to-peer, and mixing or otherwise obfuscating your transaction history. And yes, if all these centralized services stopped spying on you and sharing your data then it would go some way to gaining back a bit of privacy.

But collecting data from centralized exchanges is far from the only method these blockchain analysis companies use. Just because I avoid such exchanges does not make me instantly immune to surveillance. They do everything from dust attacks to running SPV servers, and use blockchain analysis to link it all together. So no, while you keep bleating the same nonsense about how your name isn't stored on the blockchain and it is all the centralized services' fault, it is trivial for anyone (except you, apparently) to see how these firms use the blockchain to link all your data and all your transactions together.

If you don't want that to happen, then you either need to obfuscate your coins or be like franky1 and trust completely in governments around the world always having your best interests at heart and only spying on you for your own good.

your missing the point again. on many angles
if services didnt send the data the recipient has nothing to receive.

i know your angry and want to cry. but instead of trying to say i am a government agent simply because i done research. realise the harsh truth.. your idols are the government agents. because you are omitting how your idols are the ones sending info to the government

dont blame the blockchain for sending your name to the government becasue the blockchain does not collect names or products purchased
dont blame me for highlighting whats regulations are via a google search

the blockchain does not send your personal information to the government. .. SERVICES DO
so think long and hard about what services you should and should not use.
think about what services you idolise which are going against your wishes..
and blame them

but please do show me any transaction that tells me what product someone bought.
go on. show me some transactions from 2009-2012 where pizza's, alpaca socks, bitcoin cupcakes were bought as back then thats all that could be bought mainly. where it specifically says those products in the transaction data

its the SERVICES you use that you have to be careful with
sticking head in the sand thinking that you can pretend that services dont or shouldnt do stuff magically makes them stop.. sorry real life doesnt work via ignorance
you cant just sign up to coinbase and blow out a candle at same time wishing they wont flag you when you use a mixer.. .. they still will because they are obligated to. and no wishful ignorance will stop that

oh and read the final section of my last post.. it might actually give you a lightbulb moment
find the loop hole to the regulations. a service not defined in their rules as a red flag..
think about it

dont cry about how you want to pretend the rules dont apply to your favourite service simply because you told yourself not to read their policies, to pretend they have no policy..
instead read the policies and learn how to find the loophole to work around them

dont cry (that your idols are the government snoops) by trying to say franky must be a snoop jsut to live in fantasy land that you can pretend your idols are not the snoops because the magic of your cries has made franky the scapegoat.. sorry. but the truth is i am not a agent but your idols are.. come to that realisation.. wake up and understand real life.
wake up and realise its your idols that are the government snoops. accept the reality and if still angry go complain to them.
take your anger at those that work for DCG

then think about the loop hole service that offers the end result you want but is not described as a 'mixer' even if the result is the same..

We actually had exactly that in the early-mid 2000s - No Tor, practically no HTTPS anywhere, the NSAKEY heyday at its height cause everyone was using Windows (I shall mention gaping scurity vulnerabilities in pretty much every software not the least Internet Explorer while we're on that topic), no Bitcoin obviously - and all this is after the Patriot Act which basically allowed the NSA to get whatever info it wants.

There you go simping for the government again. If the government doesn't like it, it must be shady, right? You are absolutely sure your government would never look down on something you support? They are on the right side of history 100% of the time? You said you live in the UK, right? So the same UK government that is trying to abolish the Human Rights Act? Or like the Canadian government which froze the bank accounts of people donating to a political cause they didn't like? Or like all the innocent Russian citizens with frozen assets because their government are warmongers? Or the US Supreme Court which is stripping away woman's rights?

Nothing to fear, nothing to hide is your motto. So you decry privacy and open yourself up to complete surveillance in the hope they the government won't bother you too much. You'll end up leading a life so meek that you'll never dare to step out of line from what your almighty and benevolent government have deemed acceptable behavior. Just be careful you don't commit any thoughtcrime!

Right, because the NSA's only source of information is the SEC. There definitely aren't any other government agencies buying blockchain analysis services:

https://www.usaspending.gov/keyword_search/chainalysis
https://www.usaspending.gov/keyword_search/ciphertrace
https://www.usaspending.gov/keyword_search/coinbase
https://www.usaspending.gov/keyword_search/elliptic

I see the Fiscal Service, CFTC, CFPB, DOS, DEA, FBI, IRS, Justice Department, SEC, TSA, ICE, Secret Service, Department of the Interior, even the Air Force and Army. All these departments are using blockchain analysis. And that's just the US government. But yes, tell us more about the government definitely isn't spying on its citizens because you say so.

And I assume that Chainalysis just magically know which transactions are being sent to privacy tools without using any kind of blockchain surveillance?

well 99.9% of people dont want to do shady crap. so no thanks i wont take you up on your offer to actively do shady crap, and you should not be telling normal people to do shady crap to play into your games.. but nice try to make users be red flagged.

and dont forget that if you use coinbase and then a mixer. your already red flagged before you then send another stash received from a mixer to your shady darknet sites.

so you are missing the point. you getting red flagged before you even get to buy your shady crap just by using a mixer hoping a mixer will hide you from getting noticed

it doesnt matter if its fiat or bitcoin. result would be the same. its not a fault of bitcoin. its the services.

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oh and if the darknet site is able to be found.. guess what. then that is yet another failed SERVICE
thus you again have not done your research to protect yourself
if a darknet service is using a well known wallet and re-using addresses, or using known deposit/withdrawal patterns to be recognised as something that would put someone on a watch list. thats the fault of the SERVICE

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i know how desperate you are to defend the services while trying to accuse bitcoin of being broke/not fit for purpose, thus requiring more services.. but that is your malicious profiteering greedy mindset working.. not the logic and comon sense of trying to help the community

i know you are upset that i am yet again calling out your groups crappy plot. but if you had any actual intelligence you would be able to do the research and understand what happens in reality. rather than shout out your hopes, dream and utopian idealogy of how you think things work

now go try and read some regulations and privacy policies and how services gather and share information. then you will learn where to find the loopholes of the policies, to stay off their radar

in short when a regulation and a exchange policy both say that using a mixer will get your account investigated as suspicious.. guess what.. then dont use a mixer. find a new way to avoid being red flagged

only use things that dont re-use address that dont ask for specific allotments of deposits. that dont do withdrawals at known timesets after a deposit. .. basically use things that are more random

NSA. OMG you really are sounding like badecker.
you do know that exchanges send files to the SEC not the NSA
if the SEC then want to pass info to the NSA thats another task after the SEC gets info.. you know logic of how time moves in one direction where the sec has to receive info to then pass it on..
so if the SEC only receives 0.1% then they only have 0.1% to then pass on..

you probably are well experienced of things like the 'chainletter' scam where people receive a letter and told to pass it onto 5 people and receive $x for doing so..
if people simple dont send the letter then other people dont receive it..
meaning if SEC dont get a SAR then they cant send what they dont have to the NSA
its called physics. logic. reality

you forget how the real world works. governments dont have the labour/resources to actively watch everyone. they are only interested in the suspicious events. because if they spend their limited resources on the suspicious events instead of the 1000x of data of everyone. they save themselves 1000x of time
again common sense and logic


coinbase do not watch everything. they get data from chainanalysis
chain analysis watch all the mixer know transactions and report that to coinbase

i know you have a wall of text phobia.. maybe thats why you never read things beyond the tweets and DM's of social media
but please do try to do the research
then sit back have some time to let actual research soak into your brain and then use reality, common sense, logic .. and not your conspiracy fantasy you read from someone else in your social group.

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smart people probably can think of a solution/loop hole to regulation
EG if regulations dont like mixers. the certain services can easily stop describing themselves as a mixer and instead change just a few minimal user experiences while they wait between the deposit and withdrawal to feel like the service is something else.. but the end result is.. the coins at withdrawal is different then what were deposited

EG
knowing mixers waste peoples time for about an hour of waiting..

they could stop being a "mixer"
and instead be a "game"
where people deposit funds. and a webgame appears on their screen that by doing a deposit allows them to play a game for an hour. and at the end they get their value back out. where it just happens that the value out is from a different taint
(much like how custodian wallets like exchanges do things)
ofcourse not be classed as a custodian/exchange as other rules apply. but if your smart enough to read the regulations. you can then think of the loop holes of a different category of service thats not a red flag. and not advertised as a service thats on the red flag list. but just happens to give a similar result as what people are looking for.
EG by giving out same value as what went in, its not 'gambling' thus doesnt fit gambling restrictions

now go do some research, then step away from the computer and let the information soak in and use some logic and common sense, rather than conspiracy fear and defending services that are red flags

and if still unhappy and want to cry about red flags.. go complain to the idols you love so much at DCG who own exchanges and coinanalysis companies and tell them how they are ruining your experience

And they use the blockchain to connect the dots. This is not a difficult concept to understand, so I assume you are deliberately choosing to not understand it. Go and take some coins from your Coinbase account and send them directly to anywhere the government doesn't like (darknet market? foreign power?) without using a mixer and see just how fast the authorities, powered by blockchain analysis, knock on your door.

Right, because the NSA publish all their statistics on Google. Did you miss everything since Snowden?

And in your fantasy land, how exactly do customers get singled out for a "red flag" if they are not surveilling everyone by default? Maybe the customers email Coinbase and tell them they are going to mix their coins? Or maybe Coinbase just magically know?

oh oeleo

please take the conspiracy hat off and instead do some actual research
you sound like badecker

its got nothing to do with 'if you do nothing wrong you got nothing to hide' its about not sounding like a conspiracy nut who shouts fantasies and fears. and instead actually doing research to know what your targets are targetting to know how to not be in their crosshairs. using actual research not the hopes that some buddy of yours tells you is a solution. when your buddy is actually promoting you to use a service that puts a target on you


the blockchain does not reveal your purchases.. SERVICES DO
it does not matter what you bought. because the blockchain does not reveal what you bought.
its the services you have to point your finger at. and be wary of.

you seem very very obsessed in getting people to use mixers. and LN when its been shown to you that those things WILL put you on a watch list no matter what you bought

and instead you want to play scare tactic games that everyone is on a watch list and mixers take you off those lists
you really have things the wrong way around not everyone is on a watchlist. infact 0.1% are on a watch list. and guess the main reasons they are on a watch list

did you even do the research that services like kraken, bitpay and coinbase combined have about 200million customer accounts. yet in 2021 those services only filed 200k SAR's
yep of those services, they actually filed SARS  0.1% of their customers

so stop playing the false fear games that everyone is being watched by government when the actual stats (simple google search) shows only 0.1% are being watched

then go research(although i already linked you several times) what actually triggers people being red flagged as being suspicious.. and thus watched

and its not "just using bitcoin" thats a red flag.. its actually using AEC's mixers timbers and altnets that promote privacy

so understand what actually does get people put on active surveillance monitoring. and what ones just dont, and just get to use bitcoin and services without investigations and information sharing

read some regulations, businesses policies, and actually LEARN
in all your posts in the last week about privacy you have not once actually linked some actual statistic, any regulation or any policy.. but you have instead shouting out conspiracy nut scare tactics in the same manner that backecker would

so take some time. stop acting like badecker.. and use some common sense and logic instead of conspiracy fantasy

if you actually research how the real world works. then you can learn how to protect yourself better.

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again do some research

you have repeated this sentiment multiple times
"Far better to simply let the government keep a close eye on every transaction you make, everything you buy, every satoshi you purchase or earn, every website you visit, every email you send, every phone call you make, everywhere you go, everything you do, everything you say, everything you think"

can you even count
there are 320million people in america
how long do you think it takes for 4800 employees at the SEC to watch everything of everyone all the time

yep you start to realise that logic, math, physics, common sense shows that they cant and dont watch everyone
reality hits you in the face when you actually use logic and run the numbers

again they are only interested in the suspicious activities becasue they have limited people to watch suspicious activity.
thus they are not proactively watching everyone, they are reactively watching those who are on a SAR that they receive
and again when you research what criteria is set to trigger a SAR you start to learn how to stay outside that criteria, this you wont appear on a list the government watches

..
then run the numbers again
coinbase has about 60m customers and 3700 employees
do the math how much time is needed for each employee to watch, and keep an eye on all users all the time,

you start to realise they cant.
instead coinbase only looks at the customers they get red flagged

..
so instead of using badeckers conspiracy nut tone of shouting out governmetn watches everything

use actual logic, stats, data, and laws. and actually see how the real world works. then you can find the loop holes to escape being highlighted by a service thus avoid being highlighted by the government

and if you really do hate coinbase kraken bitpay and chainanalysis. then stop kissing the ass of them (yes you idolise employees of DCG)

use your buddy connections to contact your idols at DCG and go scream to them about their tactics of how they are ruining things

Newsflash: You are already on multiple watchlists. You are already being surveilled by at least a dozen different blockchain analysis companies who sell their data and technology to governments and three letter agencies around the world. All your transactions are already being tracked, analyzed, deanonymized, and linked to all the other data you have shared and left behind every time you do anything online. If you think that you should avoid mixers so as not to draw the attention of the government and their agencies, then by that logic you also shouldn't use bitcoin at all.

Yeah, it's definitely the mixers. It definitely isn't the centralized exchanges like Coinbase which are reporting tens of thousands of their users to the government. It definitely isn't BitPay which demands KYC from all merchants and all buyers, and passes that information to the government. It definitely isn't blockchain analysis firms which are taking contracts from the FBI, CIA, IRS, DEA, SEC, CBP, CFTC, and more. No, it is definitely the mixers which are the problem here.

They don't need to. They just spend millions of dollars buying the services of Chainalysis and other analysis companies.

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You wouldn't. franky1 is of the opinion that only criminals need privacy. If you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to fear in his eyes, which is of course an utterly moronic statement to make. Don't do anything to have any sort of privacy whatsoever because otherwise you will end up on a watchlist. Far better to simply let the government keep a close eye on every transaction you make, everything you buy, every satoshi you purchase or earn, every website you visit, every email you send, every phone call you make, everywhere you go, everything you do, everything you say, everything you think. Only then will you truly be free.

The threat isn’t knowing what people bought, this information will be revealed in most online transactions anyways. It’s also not that interesting, except for advertisers. The threat is about the state knowing individuals complete financial flows and preventing certain demographics from having their money accepted on services/ making it easier to unjustly seize things when this information is completely transparent. The actual problem is linking sensitive data to it, making it mandatory on most services and the introduction of blacklists. Its not Bitcoins fault, but if no one pushes against it, then how will we know it won’t happen? It’s a social issue, not a technical one. It seems like governments are unwilling to accept no taint tho.

I get this viewpoint, but we also need to use these services less. And like i said above the real threat is what i described above, which you couldn’t just escape by flying under the radar.

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Im aware of that, i just don’t get how they’re so compliant without ever contesting anything in court. It’s about profits and not Bitcoin for them.

If what you’re saying is true, then how would you achieve privacy tho? The only way is to stop using centralized services, but how realistic is it that most people will follow? I also don’t get your problem about self-hosted LN, it’s more reliable/ usable than doing offchain transactions on paper.

How ik the people here they never just argued in sake of profits, but it was actual arguments related to real problems.

They don’t need that many employees to do it anymore, data science will suffice for any nefarious scenario there is. Especially if sensitive data is linked to an open ledger that can’t be manipulated easily.

try and show me anywhere on the blockchain where by it shows in raw transaction/block data. the products you have bought at any time

.. hmm.. you cant?
then the blockchain is not the problem

the problem is services/businesses..
it doesnt matter if you bought a sex doll or a candy bar, drugs or a office chair. by using certain services that are red flagged as suspicious. you will be red flagged and put on a watch list

these regulated services are not tracking you because of what you bought or announcing to the world what you bought. they are putting people onto watchlists because they are doing suspicious things.

i have not used LN or liquid or mixers with my stash. and i am not on any watchlist.
yep. 10 years and thousands of transactions later.. im still not on a watch list..

so dont pretend that just buying a office chair or a sex doll or candy or other things is going to get people put onto watch lists simply because they didnt use a mixer.. the actual fact is the opposite. by using a mixer no matter what you bought previous to its use. will put you on a watch list.

you or i, dont have to like their rules. but to atleast understand the rules you can learn how to avoid being on a watch list even if you use funds innocently

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as for the services that do share information(something else to be angry about). dont cry that they do it and pretend they shouldnt. realise the reality.. they are regulatory required to do it. so knowing you are friends with a group of people that you share a certain mindset with at many exampled times.. look who their idols are
and look who is paying their idols.
and you will find DCG.. who own things like LN liquid.. but also own chain analysis and several prominent exchanges
so while your buddies are pointing fingers in all other directions trying to blame others.. look at the route of the problem.

the crowd that are advertising mimblewible(tumblers), mixers, AEC(liquid,ln,monero) de-fi, and other things.. are the same group that are advertising to use those suspect services which end up generating profits for other services their idols own

yep by using a mixer gets you watchlisted by chainanalysis that sells that info to exchanges and passes info to them who pass it onto regulators. and also at the exchange level the exchanges then share your info with other exchanges at a profit.

understand the games being played against you under the false guise of "privacy" when the actual adjective is "profit"

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as for the exaggeratiosn that "government watches everyone 24/7"
i said this many times before in topics whree scertain people use scare tactics to advertise services..
the governmetn does not have millions of employees to watch hundreds of millions of citizens 24/7. they instead delegate businesses to watch over their own customers..
take just coinbase with over 60million customers.. take kraken, and other crypto services all situated in san fransisco county..
there are reports and studies done that show only 200k SAR's were sent to government in 2021
less than 0.3% of just coinbase customers thus about 0.1% over all for all MSB in SFC

but guess what was the main red flag trigger of them 0.1% .. yep using tools known to be red flag triggers
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.60729993
yep using anonymising tools even if funds were not criminal used

I never advertised for a mixer, im talking about the taint that centralized services are introducing and that we shouldn’t accept it no matter what, this is bigger than just mixers. Because in my opinion best practice for a currency is no taint, no matter what.

It’s always brought up what criminals are using(who are a minority), so let’s ban mixers, shun everyone who uses it and not accept their coins anymore, then what? Criminals just use another platform and we just lost a piece of freedom again and are forced to be controlled harder again. In our fight in "saving the world", we should maybe once think about how these measures actually affect us. It’s weird that the proposed solution to every problem is always the same, less privacy, less freedom, more controls.

We’re becoming completely transparent and have to justify every single step we’re making, are forced to share sensitive data to companies, to just use the simplest services. The only barrier they still have are some data protection policies, but if you’ve ever looked behind the curtain and seen how employees/ companies actually handle it, i wouldn’t put too much weight on it. So stop acting like regulation equals real practice, execution is a whole other topic. If mixers put people on watchlists this easily, then people should be warned beforehand and then they can still decide for themselves. But let’s not act like we’re not already, just because a spaghetti law promises so.

You think you're not on a watch list already for using Bitcoin? Or Tor? Or just for using the internet? That's cute

So this is just your regular anti-LN agenda after all. Noted.

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Taint is like religion: some people try to convince you it exists, but as long as you don't believe it, it means nothing to you.

again it doesnt matter what you bought. what the coins were used for pre mixing.
again it doesnt matter if fresh minted coins were put into a mixer

by the very fact that you received coins from a mixer. whether dirty, clean or fresh mined.. by just using a mixer, your now on a watch list.

yep using a mixer hoping to hide, gets you noticed more and added to a surveillance list

and no the solution is not to use several mixers back to back hoping that regulated services give up watching.
and no trying to get everyone to use a mixer doestn not make regulated services stop watching
it just means more people/addresses/coins are added to the watch list.

thus you end up doing the opposite of hiding

here is a hint. without the silly groups wishful daydream. but actual factual information from regulators
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.60729993
(it pays to do your research rather than trust certain people with malicious motives

I think the point of a mixer is not to give a person 'clean' bitcoins but to avoid the coins being traced back to their original owner's address (to hide the source of the money, in a way). Of course, the money you get might actually be somewhat 'tainted' (but you'll get small amounts from different sources) but the transactions will be confusing enough to count as untraceable. As for getting 'clean' bitcoins, I think I've seen stories that some actually do that by paying more to get freshly mined coins which literally don't have a history.

wasabi wallet as windfury knows been hit recently by certain regulations. and anyone using wasabi wallet is definitely going on a watch list.

why is it the same group of a dozen people* are stupidly advertising things that will get people put on watchlists just for using certain services no matter if their coins were good or bad to begin with.

using something that is guaranteed to put you on a watch list is not "privacy"

doomad, windfury, loycev, blackhatcoiner, notatether, n0nce, o_e_l_e_o, pooya87, lucius, tadamichi and a few others

OP, risking the fact that many forum members will be angry at me for this simple suggestion, but if you're willing to accept the trade off, and merely want a little untraceability/privacy for your transactions, then you can use Wasabi Wallet. Anyone can say, "No, Wasabi Wallet is bad", but it's your decision only IF you accept the trade off.

That's DarkStar_'s address, not ChipMixer's.
It's not as if Signature Campaign addresses aren't public anyway.

That address gets funded from the same chips ChipMixer uses for any withdrawal. There is no "other wallet".

You can even make your own chips:
So nobody can ever be sure whether or not inputs came from ChipMixer.

https://www.blockchain.com/btc/address/1ChipWGhJtEWCeSq3cra4HmKhvYqe8Tvty
(their address used to pay their advertisers)
this is a easy point to link back to their other wallet because they use the fees of swaps to pay their advertisers

edit:
answering below as not worth a topic bump

loyce i know your part of the same group that is highly incentivised to advertise mixers and other networks that are promoted as helping privacy.

but the thing is that it does not matter what the coins are or were spent/sourced from before using a mixer. by using a mixer people get put on watch lists.. and the easier it is to link  coins to a mixer the easier it is to find the mixer which then is used to identify which coins to add to a watch list.

oh .. and a good mixer would have many many many wallets and never re use the same wallet nor address twice
they would also vary the deposit allotment amounts. to avoid pattern recognition
they would also vary the times of deposits to the times of withdrawals so that associations cant be made. and many many other things.

oh.
and you start your rebuttal by saying that the vanity address is one persons address(thus separate wallet) and not chipmixers direct address in the chip mixer wallet..
then you contradict yourself by saying that it is the same


i know you are just trying to poke the bear. but can you try to stick to one summary rather then contradicting yourself in the same post.

another thing.
no they were not arrested for just being developers. they developed software and then used software whereby they knew willingly a criminal was using it. thus thy were aiding an abetting a criminal act.
a law that exists far before bitcoin was a thing, thus not a fault of bitcoin, nor being a software developer

and final thing
if you dont like the fiat rules that apply now that bitcoin is defined as a currency, go speak to those that lobbied to get bitcoin defined as a currency circa 2014. if you dont like the rules that exchanges and chainanalysis have to comply with. go speak to your influencers you idolise and ask the to stop. your buddies kiss their ass enough, so it must get you some form of special treatment to talk to them. yep im talking about your idols at https://dcg.co/portfolio/, you know the services you and your buddies love to advertise

Maybe, maybe not. But it shouldn't matter where your money came from. Let me put it this way: if you know your tx came from a certain website, you know something about a few other addresses too. And if you know that, someone else can know something about your address.

Taint is like religion: it only exists if you want it to.

ChipMixer doesn't use vanity addresses.

when mixers use vanity addresses.. they are not really helping to hide peoples activity (eg chipmixer)

when mixers request users deposit exact allotment of coin this pattern highlights them as a mixer which has a certain allotment pattern. again not helping hide users.

when regulations tell businesses to watch any/all users of mixers. which means red flag users of mixers. then the very act of using a mixer becomes anti-privacy. because those who dont use privacy tools dont get a red flag and thus dont get put on a watch list.

better mixers have these features
a. deposits can be random amounts
b.deposits use random keys
c. deposit amount in does not become a similar value amount withdrawal within x blocks
d. mixers that dont ask you to provide a session id, a reference, an index number or a contact point to link a user to a 'session'