Topic: Mixers that mix bitcoin without letting it be obvious that it came from a mixer? - page 5. (Read 1465 times)

I'm pretty sure I have a list of all Bitcoin addresses on a watch list, and I'm pretty sure there are also unused addresses on watch lists somewhere.

Wasabi uses a questionable source to blacklist addresses, while attacking the basics (fungibility) of Bitcoin as electronic cash.

They merely want to maximize their profit, and convincing people their Bitcoins are only fungible if they use Wasabi Wallet is part of that.

@franky1: Describing o_e_l_e_o as "vile beyond belief" is a little uncalled for, no? I'm not financially incentivized to endorse mixers but I still agree with every point I've read that o_e_l_e_o and LoyceV have made on this issue (in this thread and others).

Treating "taint" as if it's a real thing may serve your needs better, but it contributes to making things worse for everybody else (see my post above, with the Beavis and Butt-Head pic ).

Honestly, watching the way you've conducted yourself here makes me feel a little sheepish about the thread I made on the reputation board...

The Bitcoin blockchain itself is a massive database of all transactions that have ever taken place and all the addresses associated with these transactions. By spinning up your own full node that maintains a full copy of this database, you are essentially deploying your personal watchlist, which you also can use to surveil brazenly the transactions and addresses of others.


Apparently, the taint of bitcoin addresses is a flawed and misleading concept, and it largely depends on who you ask. For example, according to my standpoint regarding this concept, each UTXO that comes from Wasabi CoinJoin is to be considered "tainted" because, before entering the CoinJoin process as input, it had been touched or filtered by the dirty hands of chain surveillance companies. Therefore, not only did Wasabi not protect the user's from taint, it made all their bitcoins even more tainted and disgusting.


I can also deem your post about taint disinformation, but, in fact, it is just a difference of opinion. If someone considers someone's opinion to be a guide to action, they should learn the hard way.

What "watch list"? Using ANY mixer definitely WILL put your PUBLIC ADDRESS in a watch list in a database somewhere. Using a centralized exchange could possibly do that too.

About WasabiWallet, OP's concern is "taint". Wasabi's developers make sure that all UTXOs that enter their pool don't come from questionable sources. They merely want to protect their users from taint.

Plus you make newbies believe as if those users in your post are "scammers", but in fact you are the one who spreads disinformation in the forum and gaslight people. But if people trust you, then they will learn the HARD WAY.

seriously!!!!!!
now you are again going pedantic

here is your defined list of things which i did not colour red
"Yes yes yes, red flag causing mixers. Just like red flag causing coinjoins. And red flag causing DEXs. And red flag causing casinos. And red flag causing unlicensed exchanges."
becasue those in th elist above i thought were faily inclusive of the red flag risk. so i accepted you know a bit..

but i then highlighted some in red which were extremely exaggerated and based on your conspiracy ignorance

look at the posts above where i coloured your exaggerations in red..
and your response is to quote one of the items i did not colour red..

that point you quoted from FATF is about VASP that are licenced and dont follow their KYC requirements or unlicenced but should be licenced should be following KYC. due to them lacking providing KYC when the should be..
(AKA whose CDD or know-your-customer (KYC) processes are demonstrably weak or non-existent)

(which is why i did not red highlight your  "And red flag causing unlicensed exchanges.") because i was trying to be fair.

yet your "proof" has nothing to do with any of you things in the red coloured exaggerations.

again i highlighted your silly exaggerations in red. and you decide to pick a quote that refers to something not highlighted in red


go be pedantic with you idols. as they are the ones your angry at. so go point your fingers at them.

Sorry, but if you are just going to bury your head in the sand when shown irrefutable proof, then you are going back on ignore.

you finally read it WOW
amazing. one step forward

funny part is when i quoted your conspiracy bit.. i highlighted and coloured the ones you exaggerate in red..

which is not in your list of things
his are your exaggerations

And red flag causing marketplaces. (actual flags dont say all services)
And red flag causing instant exchangers. (actual list doesnt say instant exchagers)
And red flag causing self hosted payment processors. (actual list does not say about these either)
And red flag causing non-KYCed addresses. (actual list doesnt say this either)
Anything which is not a KYCed account on a centralized exchange is a red flag for the authorities. (nor this)

so the snippets you shown are not proving your exaggerations
you also have yet to put your snippets into context of common sense and logic.. but you took one step forward

so now you have read the REAL list of things to avoid.. your about 3 steps forward.. now dont go backwards and dont head back into ignorance

your welcome

I mean, I'm literally reading from the document you are referencing. But since you apparently have not bothered to read the document you are basing your entire argument on, allow me to quote it below:


I'll wait for you withdrawing all your incorrect statements about what does and does not constitute a red flag. But no doubt instead you will provide some explanation for why the document you are basing your whole red flag nonsense on isn't actually saying what it quite clearly says, and that you and you alone understand the one true interpretation of it, which is mIxErS aRe BaD but everything else it talks about is all just an elaborate ruse.

Cool story. I'll continue to use them freely to buy, sell, trade, and exchange at a whole bunch of places, as I have been doing for the last 5+ years, without ever once having a problem with the rEd FlAgS on my coins.

NO THEY ARE NOT
you really have not even bothered to read it have you. you have not even tried to work out what generates a SAR report have you.. you are really ignorant

READ THE REGULATIONS the list of red flag indicators is NOT all the things you listed
GO READ WHAT ARE THE ACTUAL RED FLAG INDICATORS

i have linked you the guidelines MANY TIMES
so dont waste time making crap up.. instead go read actual fact



translation.. you dont care that only 0.25% of coins are redflagged, as long as you can live in some fantasy land pretending your withdrawn coins are not red flagged because in your mind if you ignore what causes a red flag you can pretend red flags dont happen
EG you pretend mixers dont cause red flags or put your transactions onto a watch list by pretending you dont know what a red flag is

however you then pretend that EVERYONE should have their coins red flagged under the delusion that if you can turn your red flag swamp of only a couple dozen candidates an hour to be a ocean of 10,000 candidates an hour then you personally can hide better, even if that means causing headaches and problems for 9975 other people
who then have a spotlight put on them.. (thats just malicious tactic and evil thing to subject people to)



again your delusional distractions are amazing

imagine you deposited funds today from your nefarious source into a mixer
that deposit triggers a red flag on that source. meaning they will look backwards from the deposit back to the nefarious source.. because yep you guessed it. you used a mixer so your on a priority watch list of your deposit

then lets say you got some funds out of a mixer. even if that utxo is X age old. guess what that too is on a red flag watch list. and so that would be watched forward from its withdrawal/spend onwards(!whenever that will be!)

while you want to be pedantic about silly little things.. you forgetting.. YOUR ON A WATCHLIST AND YOUR MOVEMENTS BEFORE THE MIXER AND AFTER THE MIXER have generated TWO SAR reports..
1 for the coins deposited and 1 for the coins withdrawn

those coins are then deemed as untrusted/suspect. no matter how much you want to pretend you are clean.. all for the simple fact that YOU USED A MIXER

again one more time
please read this 10 times and read it slowly.. let the info sink in.

read the regulations to know what are red flags (dont make them up or pretend everything is. or pretend nothing us, due you tyour delusions of ignorance...EG like u just did in the quoted post you made which i highlighted in red.)
instead again READ THE REGULATIONS. learn what actually does cause a red flag. and then use things that dont cause red flags.

you really have acted like a idiot. you have had multiple days to actually do research on red flag causes. and even today you have ultimately shown you have no clue and instead went on some conspiracy fantasy stupidity rant of not knowing what causes SAR reports that go to governments. and instead done all you could to try to defend mixers and pretend that mixers are not red flag events and pretend and push and advertise that everyone should jump into your swamp of suspicion in the hopes that it can hide you better if you fill the swamp

you are vile beyond belief. you would rather have every coin treated as red flag by you getting everyone to use mixers. but then pretend their red flags must have been cause by some fantasy service you dont advertise. rather then actually be a moral ethical person that tries to think up solutions for people to actually evade red flags so that all coins dont get treated as red flags

He'll just watch all chips, and say you're on the list This is one of the reasons I want to make a graph showing the total number of funded chips over the years. I expect a clear case of "hiding in plain sight".

Yes yes yes, red flag causing mixers. Just like red flag causing coinjoins. And red flag causing DEXs. And red flag causing casinos. And red flag causing unlicensed exchanges. And red flag causing marketplaces. And red flag causing instant exchangers. And red flag causing self hosted payment processors. And red flag causing non-KYCed addresses. Anything which is not a KYCed account on a centralized exchange is a red flag for the authorities. So you go ahead buying and selling bitcoin on Coinbase and never actually use bitcoin for anything and never do anything except that which is explicitly allowed by your government. That's real freedom, right?

Which, if you read my reply above, would realize is completely irrelevant. I don't care if you can identify a transaction as originating from a mixer or a coinjoin. What you cannot do is link it to an input, which is the whole point.

Cool. So at some point in last 6 months or the next 6 months I might withdraw at least one chip of an unknown value from ChipMixer. Feel free to tell me when I do and tell me which chip it is, since obviously you've managed to crack it where everyone else has failed.

Anyone could make their own chips. Even years before ChipMixer existed, many chip-sized transactions happened. I'm still working on a graph with amounts of chips, but there's a lot of data to analyse.

more social drama distractions..

its been days now and still oeleo is finding excuse after excuse to defend the use of red flag causing mixers. rather then learn what causes red flags to then find things that dont cause red flags..

boring social drama queen tactics..
so go step away from the keyboard.. and go find out what causes a red flag. and go find the loophole to avoid being red flagged

oh and chip mixer uses known 'chip' amounts. so its easy to spot the pattern. so when services see random value split into chip value amounts.. thats flagged as a mixer deposit. and then they investigate that persons use of coins prior to deposit.
and when the chip value moves out and into random amounts. they see that as a mixer withdrawal and again they highlight that persons movements after the withdrawal

thus out of the 25 tx that involve the chip value amounts amungst the 10,000 tx an hour.. you become a hotlist of only 25 they have to watch not 10,000

you are not hiding in an ocean of thousands. your swimming in a swamp of a couple dozen..

---

edit to respond to below:
loyceV now you are playing the same silly games..
point is. YET AGAIN
just using a mixer gets you a red flag..

its not about when chip mixer was invented or used commercially..

its about just using a mixer (of any brand or any pattern they choose) gets you a red flag
so go play all the games you like such as when i mention wasabi, you mention coinjoin, when i mention coinjoin your group mentions chipmixer, if i mention chip mixer you mention something else..
over all  ALL MIXERS will get you red flagged.. its not about the brand or the method or the time the service started operating

so the advice is again very simple
read regulations, read the rules, read their criteria. and then find something thats not defined under their criteria. and guess what.. you wont be red flagged and so not one of the 25 of the 10,000 tx per hour that is actively watched and reported to government

in short..
if you dont want to be part of the 0.25% that ends up on some SAR that governments then react to. learn how to not be part of the 0.25%

Lmfao. They wrote an article including statistics regarding coinjoins. You misquoted those statistics as applying to mixers. Your response is "go cry to them". For what? Not writing the article you thought they wrote? If you order wine and the waiter brings you a beer, do you complain to the brewery for not making wine?

Wrong again. I've got some coins in a ChipMixer voucher which have probably been there for over 6 months. I might withdraw them today, I might withdraw them in another 6 months. Good luck grouping that in to one of your mythical "sessions times".

Again, not even close to being true, but even if it was, it doesn't matter. I don't care if you can identify an output as coming from a mixer or coming from a coinjoin, and these tools were never designed to hide this fact (although I realize now you don't understand how these tools work or the threats they protect against). The fact is you cannot link these output to an input, which is the whole point in the first place.

no i actually used coindesks terminology.. PLEASE GO READ THE ARTICLE AND YOU WILL UNDERSTAND ITS THEIR TERMINOLOGY so go cry to them
i guess you did not get the subtle hint in the grey writing

silly man. deflecting and pointing fingers, without reading indepth.. typical

as for the schedules
users of mixers do not deposit into a mixer and get told "please wait for a random people upto a month"
in almost all cases most mixers payout within 1-2 hours

thus services can group together the dozen deposits per hour with a dozen withdrawals within same session time. and then instead of having to watch all 10,000 transactions per hour. they only have to actively watch and investigate 25 tx an hour

get it yet
well i actually think you do but your not ready to omit it.
i think you know this because its probably the reason why you cry so hard that everyone should get red flags and use mixers. because you know that the lack of utility of mixers means your on a shortlist of 0.25% of transactions and you are aware this is a risk. and so you want to fool everyone else to bump up that 0.25% number up to a higher amount hoping to make investigators jobs harder by pure outpacing their investigation time via lots more red flags to be investigated..
sad part is that trick wont work. because they will just employ more staff or find new ways to narrow down the interesting suspicious transactions to keep an eye on as a priority

yep you know deep down(unless truly dumb(which might also be the case) where you know you are not hiding in an ocean of 10,000tx an our you perform a mix.. but instead swimming a swamp of 25 possible people an hour you do your mix

..
now put aside your disasterous and failed attempts to fool everyone into earning red flags by pretending it takes them off watchlists (where infact its actually adds them to watch lists)

and instead take the subtle hints to use something else thats not defining itself as a mixer, but the end result is what you wish. thus use the loophole

(i predict instead of having a lightbulb moment, you will just be more pedantic and continue to want to advertise mixers (a known red flag trigger)

---

governments dont have the labour resources to "watch" all 10,000tx an hour and run active investigations on all of it.
this is why they are not proactive, but reactive. they respond to SAR from businesses they delegated to highlight only the interesting transactions that are suspicious criteria (a very well know list of criteria THAT MENTIONS MIXERS!!)
.
below that regulated services who have been delegated responsibility to monitor things, too dont employ enough staff to watch all 10,000 tx an hour. and so they too only look and actively watch and investigate the tx that have obvious suspicious activity
(its saves so much time to only investigate 25 possible candidates instead of 10,000)

try reading regulations and also MSB AML/KYC policies. apply some common sense and some logic. and not your groups hair brained conspiracies, while idolising the same group that are the ones spying on you

yep if you dont like the policies go talk to your influencers that work for DCG
pleading ignorance by not reading policies, playing fantasy land that regulations and policies dont apply because you have not read them and you wish and dream they didnt apply, does not make them not apply..

so go read the regulations of "them" and learn what they actually do and then work out a way do do things outside of their rules

Who is "they"? Are they watching us right now? It seems important for you that "they" don't see your transaction, while I'm pretty sure "they" see everything.

@franky1: I think you're on the wrong side of this issue.

The problem with your position (don't use mixers because they'll "mark" you) is that it doesn't scale. If everyone followed your advice it would lead to an industry-wide negative outcome (i.e. widespread fear of "taint" would legitimize it and destroy the concept of fungibility).

Whereas if everyone did the opposite, it would lead to an industry-wide positive outcome (i.e. widespread mixing would make it impossible for "taint" analysis to work at all and force them to give up on this misguided horseshit).

Even if that were true, your logic is that it is best to let them collect all the data they can about you because then they hopefully won't actually look at it, whereas if you obfuscate your transaction and protect your privacy by using mixers then they might actually look at... the data they don't have about you?

You have absolutely no idea how mixers work, do you?

Yeah, that's not how mixers work, like at all.

You are citing stats related to coinjoins, not mixers, although it is becoming increasingly obvious you do not understand the difference or indeed the first thing whatsoever about on-chain privacy.

Lol. You are really scrapping the bottom of the barrel here. This is such a stupid statement, even for you, that it does not even warrant a response.

missing the point yet again

by using a mixer. your transactions are highlighted with more priority to be looked at by human eyes compared with those who dont use mixers(where that data is not looked at by human eyes)

because there are not enough human eyes to "watch" everything. and so they only concentrate on the ones that use mixers and other privacy obfuscation tools

you do realise although the blockchain cant tie your transactions because the blockchain never asks for your name
what you dont realise is that mixers have known scheduled time slots between deposits and withdrawals

so when they see funds enter a mixer they can track that backwards.
and knowing the schedule. they can sweep away the other tx not associated with mixers. and find the mixer withdrawals in that time period. and follow the withdrawals forward.

and knowing there are only a limited number of mixer transactions happening in a "session". they can narrow down the amount of users involved to then join the potential candidates of the deposits to the candidates of the withdrawals. which then become easier to then work out who is who by watching how much went in with how much went out (splits before->combining after= only X people to watch)

EMPHASIS:
out of 1700 transactions a block.(10k an hour) they are really watching only about 25 tx an hour with high suspicion, running more indepth investigations on them 25 an hour

EG
if there are 1700 random tx a block and 6 blocks an hour
you think you are hiding in about a random tx count of ~10k tx
however knowing a mixer only do a couple dozen an hour. you end up being on a short list of 25 people in your session.
(studies suggest that each month only about 0.25% of coins are mixed)
https://www.coindesk.com/layer2/privacyweek/2022/01/25/how-popular-are-crypto-mixers-heres-what-the-data-tells-us/
im purposefully sourcing stats vetted by your idol's so you cant cry about the integrity of the data.. its your idols news subsidiary after all
if you dont like the stats. go cry to your idols about it

in short your transactions pre mixer and post mixers are watched by human eyes running investigations more so than my transactions

and narrowing your deposit and withdrawal down to about 25 possibilities. and watching all 25 per hour of the 10,000. makes then easier to watch YOU more then me
..

the solution to the problem is to find something that does not ask for ID where you deposit funds in and when you ask for a withdrawal your lucky enough that the withdrawal as come from a different hot/cold wallet. where that thing is NOT advertised as a mixer. but instead. is something else like a game or a bit of entertainment.

by using something that declares itself as a mixer is a automatic red flag. so avoid it

...
seems you are deflecting and opposite universe everything said at every point to stay in ignorance land.

but atleast you took one step forward by admitting or omitting(should you try to back out of your statement)
that you avoid services.

now take that extra step and learn what services you should avoid y reading the regulations
and then learn how to find the loop holes for other methods to hide without being noticed.

but the important thing is this
MIXERS ARE 100% red flag events. and no deflecting into your fantasy land will change that. so you need to change your habits to get less red flags

rather then telling everyone else they should start getting red flags by using mixers

oh and then last task for you do to
go cry about your complaint to your idols at DCG.


last point to raise about your deflections of 'who a agent is';
lets put on the oeleo conspiracy hat and point fingers.. just for fun
out of the 2 of us..
who is the one promoting a service that causes a red flag event, where that person is trying to get everyone to earn themselves a red flag...... answer o_e_l_e_o
who is the one that idolises the employees and services and new crypto tools of DCG, which are the biggest group that send SAR to governemnts... answer o_e_l_e_o
who is the one that has sworn an oath to a government agency.., answer o_e_l_e_o (your medical practice oath)

now
who is the one telling people to avoid services that cause red flags.. answer, franky1

have a nice day. and i hope one day you decide its a day to learn something rather then defend, deflect and be ignorant

Well, when I am very serious about my pseudo anonymity, I push my coins through 2 or 3 mixer services.... and then through some other "services" that gives some of the money back (if you know what I mean) ....and I feel relatively satisfied that 3 or 4 hops are sufficient to guarantee some degree of pseudo anonymity.

I have nothing to hide... so full anonymity is not my primary concern with whatever coins I have, but I do not know what happened with the coins I receive before I received it.