Topic: Money laundering via BTC - page 37. (Read 39389 times)

There is always a way to do it, like others have stated, but there is a way to trace it from place to place if you want to take the time to do it.  The concern is not the trace from, but the trace as to where it exists the system, if it is being transferred back to another currency.  The government can do almost anything if they really want it.  If it can be hacked, which it can, it can be traced in some form.

Money laundering is done a lot with bitmixer but I do not know any other methods to simply do this right now.

You understand there's no money laundering in those operations, right?
You start with black money, and you still have black money at the end.

firstly, the $12M is an estimate and those $25M are more than half back in circulation.  the same concept that the gov used to trace the coins for the bust was used by a small team of coders several months later to trace them back into the "pool", just a choice of words and obviously not a pool.

but, let's pretend that the $12 is accurate and that it is not just a basically guessed at number using a few bits of data.  let's lower it to $10 even. the standard economic law of 80/20/20/80 is slightly different off with BTC, but we can use that.  That means that 20% of BTC holders have 80% of the BTC, or $8M worth.  and that select group, while spread throughout the world and business is still pretty tight knit and many of them know each other.  it is not hard to move money within that area of business.

as for bitcoins not being used for medium scale laundering, we personally have six clients that move numbers like that over the course of six months.  we do this for several people that need discreet fund movement and true anonymity.  one of the things we recently added as a layer of confusion is fee randomization.  using a mixer as an example again, these public joke mixers use hard fees, like exchanges, and they are just taking people's money for nothing.  say you tried to use an exchange and a top out, single layer humphrey mix.  the exchange fee is 3% and you are trying to clean 10 BTC.  the 10 BTC are on address 14XXXXXX, that address splits out of ten new generation addresses, at the same moment 50 other tx's fire totaling 40 BTC, total output for the timestamp range is 50 BTC plus 3%, so 51.5 BTC.  grab a pen and paper and you can find the answer within hours, a computer can do it within seconds, 10 of those 50 TX's, when added will equal 10.1 BTC, watch those addresses and be guaranteed that over a period of time they will filter down to a few addresses if not one, and eventually one.  that is a simple hump mix, but shows that a static fee is an issue.

we randomize the fee between 1.5 and 8 percent.  in the end the client will never pay more than 5% average.  10 BTC at 1.5 percent is 10.15 and at 8 it is 10.8.  when the real numbers are much bigger than that, the possibility range gets very big.  add to that the use of several mix systems and many other tricks, combined with the fact that we are not out there on the internet advertising the services and we are nearly impossible to trace.

The coins that the FBI had seized from Silk Road were allegedly sold at auctions

Whether they remain in circulation now and did they actually sell them to an independent entity (or a group of these) is a big question, though. As I understand it, the law requires to sell confiscated property at special auctions, but if the authorities are not interested in doing that (for whatever reason), they certainly have the ways to sell this property to affiliated parties (basically, to themselves)


Bitcoiners are small fish, no one wanting to transact a few million dollars will ever look at Bitcoin as an intermediary

yes, i agree. you're all correct about covering tracks and i would do that too if i had that much supply to move. but that was not my point. my point is that there isn't much bitcoins to do that. how many people all over the world have bitcoins? who is the one person who holds the most amount of bitcoins?

in 2013(?)... was that the silk road incident, when the US seized $25 million in bitcoins? whatever happened to those bitcoins after they were seized? does anyone know? so those seized bitcoins aren't in circulation anymore, right? And as of 2014, the total amount of bitcoins in circulation was 12 million (according to reports). How much is in circulation now?

So if one person in Asia, wanted to move just a million dollars and then another in Europe wanted to move another million, where would these two get the equivalent amount of their holdings in bitcoins? To think that they aren't the only two all over the world who wants to discreetly move their funds somewhere else. There wouldn't be enough bitcoins because the coins are dispersed all over the world with only 12 million in circulation...

except for the myriad in and out tx's of the public mixer.  you can spin those addresses back and forth over and over, using hundreds of addresses and there is still x funds into the mixer and a collection of x-fee's out, confusing to the eye, but any computer can parse the outgoing transaction in a given period of time and mix and match until the outputs are grouped into groups that match the right numbers

There are some perfect ways to do it. First you need to know to create different wallets under the Electrum wallet. Do not link them to one another by doing transaction to each other. Name them with different names, they all should have different seeds so when creating one make sure to click CREATE NEW SEED.

This is the first step. Second step is convert Bitcoin to Monero which is an untraceable currency. Wait a few days, convert back to bitcoin and withdraw to those different wallets.

Now as the final step mix them through the mixer in my signature campaign which is absolutely the best one. And get them preferably in a new Multibit or hardware wallet.

That's it, no traces left behind, only your IP (if you use TOR+VPN you erased these traces too).

This is the most perfect way to me, but much more experienced users can have their saying too.

i just like the instant activation of the tx, even years later, kind of a cool way to go

yeah there a lot of way to do it smoothly, you don't have to exchange all the bitcoin to cash in one day right? do it piece by pieces , day by day as natural as you can. have heard some stories about this kind issue before and it's always been a tough topic to be discussed, never easy to prevent money laundering in bitcoin with its feature.

again, you simply manually script in all the transactions, move the "bulk" as thousands of small transactions, all at the same time, to different addresses. 

exactly, for it all to be clean, don't move in bulk. but laundering is equated with moving large volumes of cash from one place to another. then with bitcoin, it won't be possible move really large amounts. and with billions of people all over the world wanting to move large volumes of money undetected, would bitcoin and/or other cryptos be their option?

don't forget that the public mixers are being closely monitored by the government, just do the mixing yourself

If those people tend to do money laundering they would definitely use mixers because they are wise enough to know the possible things might happen if they dont do such thing.They want to be safe and fully anonymous thats why they use mixers but for an ordinary transactions on legal things then those mixer arent necessary and they are just adding up on fees.

you don't move the bulk, you script the entire amount to move in smaller pieces. you are not paying more, the fee is a percentage, so ten 1 dollar tx's pay the same amount as one $10 tx.  i used an exchange earlier as an example, but if you have $1M on an exchange, it is from trading and not dirty, or you moved it there for some stupid reason.  the exchange has your private key and the only scripting you can do is possibly through an API.

$1M dirty is in a wallet that you control and you have the ability to move it in bulk if you want, but you should be scripting smaller moves simultaneously

If someone wanted to move $1,000,000 using bitcoins, they would need about 1,428.57142857BTC if the exchange rate was $700 per 1BTC

Anyone with that much BTC? Let's say they'll get it from an exchange. Then that exchange would have to halt trading just to serve one order. That's just for $1M... So would moving a much larger amount be possible with bitcoins provided that the exchange rate is still pegged at $700-$800?

although one people can know where the transaction will stop but is it a person can know who the owner of the bitcoin address? I think no one can find out who the owner of the address of a particular address. so this is still anonymous and could be used for something secret

I think the money laundering is a very serious problem. their bitcoin many people will certainly be used for money laundering, intelligence agencies will monitor the exact state it. they must develop strategies to immediately reveal the method.

the common user has no reason ever to use a mixer.  possibly in past, but definitely not now.  the governments are pissed at bitcoin, but they are accepting it isn't going anywhere and they are not attacking the everyday user.  those the are trying to hide illegal trades and funds have no need to ever use an "online mixing service".  it is the service that they need, but there are only about 80 trustworthy ones out there are they are highly public, so that defeats the purpose.  policing agencies and government agencies can easily use computers to track the funds in and out of the known public mixers.  you could almost do it by hand for a single "mix"

yes, those people need to do things like mix their coins, but they need to do it themselves

for the people which using bitcoin for illegal activity maybe they can use the mixer to hidden or delete the trace for this. but for the normal person which using bitcoin daily then i think we don't need the mixer (or we need?) because only us that use the bitcoin and manage it so we can spend our bitcoin without worried.