Motosport General discussion tread --- Formula1, MotoGP, WTCC, ETCC, DTM..... - page 354.

tokeweed

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^ Never mind the final race. Just take a look at the first turn of the next race. Steep! Cheesy

If Verstappen gets P2 and Hamilton gets P1, we’re in for a treat. One of them should get a quick start to get the racing line at the right side of the track before turning left. If they go wheel to wheel, oooh baby! It’s gonna be like a game of chicken. Grin

... Hamilton now at 1.51 to win the race, Verstappen at 3.05. We have to take Verstappen here at this line. What do you guys think? Just wasting money?

Cnut237

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Quote from: perfect999 on November 23, 2021, 03:42:52 PM

unless Bottas does something unexpected then there is a good chance it could be Hamilton/Mercedes again, they have the upper hand now.

I would say Hamilton's chance of winning the drivers title can be influenced a lot by Bottas in the next race. It's expected that Mercedes will dominate in Saudi Arabia. If Bottas can somehow finish second behind Hamilton, it would put Hamilton ahead going into the final race. Whereas if Max finishes second, Hamilton is still behind.

This could prove crucial in the event of an "accidental" collision in the final race.

perfect999

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Just a week or two ago I was believing that there was a chance that Max could win the drivers title whereas Mercedes could win the constructors title which is a rare thing to have a driver win different from the team win at the end of the season. Usually whoever the drivers champion is, their team is also the constructors winner as well. However, now after just few weeks later I start to see that maybe Hamilton could win while Red Bull wins, which is once again a different situation and a rare thing to see. But by the looks of it unless Bottas does something unexpected then there is a good chance it could be Hamilton/Mercedes again, they have the upper hand now.

Luzin

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Hopefully it doesn't change for the 2022 MotoGP calendar. I'll have to wait almost four months for next season. The next calendar schedule in Series 2 is in my country, I hope this is not just as a backup. Here's the schedule for next season:

1. 06-03 Losail International Circuit
2. 20-03 Mandalika International Street Circuit
3. 03-04 Termas de Río Hondo
4. 10-04 Circuit Of The Americas
5. 24-04 Autódromo Internacional do Algarve
6. 01-05 Circuito de Jerez - Angel Nieto
7. 15-05 Le Mans
8. 29-05 Autodromo Internazionale del Mugello
9. 05-06 Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya
10. 19-06 Sachsenring
11. 26-06 TT Circuit Assen
12. 10-07 KymiRing
13. 07-08 Silverstone Circuit
14. 21-08 Red Bull Ring - Spielberg
15. 04-09 Misano World Circuit Marco Simoncelli
16. 18-09 MotorLand Aragón
17. 25-09 Twin Ring Motegi
18. 02-10 Chang International Circuit
19. 16-10 Phillip Island
20. 23-10 Sepang International Circuit
21. 06-11 Circuit Ricardo Tormo
Source: https://www.motogp.com/

Jackl87

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Quote from: Reosta_ on November 23, 2021, 06:50:51 AM

There are only two races left in the F1 2021 season. And it is really great to witness that the title race is continuing between Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton. The gap between these drivers is only 8 points now. This makes the last two races even more exciting. In the seasons before, Hamilton was guaranteeing his championship many races before and the remaining races were just meaningless and boring. But now, things have changed thanks to Verstappen's great effort. Verstappen can still even guarantee his title in the coming race under some conditions. But I feel like that we will definitely see this race existing in the final race also. I'm just looking forward to see the next race weekend.

This season is really exciting so far. By that i don't mean that any race was exciting because the modern Formula 1 is sadly still quite boring a lot of times because in many races you have like 3 moments that can be exciting which are the start and then 2 pit stops where something can happen but then during the race most of them time we only see tire management. I really hope this changes in the next season with the extensive remodeling of the cars including a way less complicated front wing that should reduce the effect of dirty air.
But this season is still exciting because of the close race for the championship. Two second places behind Hamilton are not enough anymore for Verstappen he needs to win 1 race of the remaining ones.

Reosta_

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There are only two races left in the F1 2021 season. And it is really great to witness that the title race is continuing between Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton. The gap between these drivers is only 8 points now. This makes the last two races even more exciting. In the seasons before, Hamilton was guaranteeing his championship many races before and the remaining races were just meaningless and boring. But now, things have changed thanks to Verstappen's great effort. Verstappen can still even guarantee his title in the coming race under some conditions. But I feel like that we will definitely see this race existing in the final race also. I'm just looking forward to see the next race weekend.

Koal-84

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Quote from: Cnut237 on November 22, 2021, 12:12:07 PM

Quote from: Koal-84 on November 22, 2021, 09:34:55 AM

OK thanks for the assessment, didn't know Hamilton didn't use the new engine in Qatar, is there a reason for that, or did Mercedes decide we don't need the new engine here as we are superior anyway?

I think the reasoning was that there just weren't enough long straights in Qatar, and they would get more advantage from it in Saudi Arabia. It's kind of counterintuitive, because the engine gives Mercedes an advantage, so you might think they're more likely to use it at a circuit that is thought to favour Red Bull, like Qatar... but it turns out they're less likely to use it there, because the benefit is less. This is why I think Mercedes are looking very strong for Saudi Arabia, it's a track that is supposed to suit them, plus Hamilton's nearly new engine should give an additional speed advantage.

Qatar surprised me, particularly that huge 0.4s gap in qualifying. That's Hamilton with an old engine at a supposed Red Bull track. I would think Red Bull are panicking a bit, hence the antics of Horner, for which he was reprimanded.

But it's unlikely Hamilton would come away from Saudi with the championship lead, unless Bottas can somehow finish ahead of Verstappen... which is stretching credibility a bit. Verstappen in a go-kart would beat Bottas in a Merc.

That Mercedes has not used the engine in any case in the race I have now also read up, or was that just a bluff to unsettle Red Bull? A new track is always difficult to assess, in Austin Texas one thought Mercedes is clearly superior, but then apparently had problems with the setup, but it does not take long a failure of the two would probably decide the world championship prematurely also in the constructors world championship.

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Quote from: Cnut237 on November 23, 2021, 03:40:46 AM

Quote from: tokeweed on November 22, 2021, 05:28:00 PM

it’s been a while since we had a good season like this. So all good no matter which side you’re on.

Yes, definitely. Hamilton and Verstappen are the best two drivers out there, and it's been a great season. The one thing that could make it better - but which is unlikely to ever happen - is to have them as team-mates, racing each other in the same car. This season has been great, but often when Hamilton beats Verstappen you wonder how much is because it's a Merc track, and if Verstappen beats Hamilton you wonder how much is beacuse it's a Red Bull track. To see them fighting in perfectly equal cars would be amazing... but I don't think either would ever accept the other as a team-mate. And Mercedes certainly wouldn't do it after the chaos of the Rosberg years.

Those years were beautiful.The intense action between Mercedes at that time reminds me of Senna vs Prost times,we need more and more of those years where a lot of drama happened.This season sure has been beautiful enough but these last tracks unfortunately favors a lot Mercedes being fast tracks so Redbull needs a miracle to win the Championship of drivers but for the constructors they still have a shot as Bottas sucks big time for a Mercedes and finally next year we will see a great driver beside Hamilton so I think Rosberg years will be back from 2022 and on.

Cnut237

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Quote from: tokeweed on November 22, 2021, 05:28:00 PM

it’s been a while since we had a good season like this. So all good no matter which side you’re on.

Yes, definitely. Hamilton and Verstappen are the best two drivers out there, and it's been a great season. The one thing that could make it better - but which is unlikely to ever happen - is to have them as team-mates, racing each other in the same car. This season has been great, but often when Hamilton beats Verstappen you wonder how much is because it's a Merc track, and if Verstappen beats Hamilton you wonder how much is beacuse it's a Red Bull track. To see them fighting in perfectly equal cars would be amazing... but I don't think either would ever accept the other as a team-mate. And Mercedes certainly wouldn't do it after the chaos of the Rosberg years.

AndySt

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Quote from: Cnut237 on November 22, 2021, 04:14:54 AM

Quote from: AndySt on November 21, 2021, 06:31:29 PM

Max still remains at the head of the championship, but his chances no longer look as confident as they seemed until recently

I think that extra fastest lap point could prove crucial, especially given what has happened so far this season. Mercedes are expected to dominate on the next track, and Hamilton will also bring his new Brazil engine back for this race. Bottas is useless, so we might expect Hamilton first and Verstappen second. There is almost zero chance of Hamilton getting fastest lap, as Perez would just pit and take it back off him... in which case we might expect to see Verstappen leading by a single point, going into the final race... in which case, what's the chance of an "I was just racing hard!" incident where Verstappen 'accidentally' crashes into Hamilton, and forces them both to DNF... giving Max the title by one point.
Not saying it will happen this way, but it's not particularly unlikely, either. Championships have been decided this way before, back in the Schumacher era, so it's hardly unprecedented.
What I hope for is just fair racing from everyone.

I also don't want the fate of the championship to be decided by such dirty methods as knocking an opponent out of the race. I still think that despite his bad luck in recent races, Bottas can still play a role in the upcoming two races and take second place after Hamilton, ahead of Verstappen. Despite some dissatisfaction with the fact that Mercedes did not extend the contract with Bottas for next season, I still think Valteri would certainly like to say goodbye to the team as best as possible and help Lewis win the title. Because all bad luck and luck has its limits, and Max is damn lucky in the last races when he minimizes his losses.

tokeweed

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^ That’s very true... Not yet even if Hamilton wins and Verstappen gets second. It has to be third or worse. And looking at the lines for the driver’s championship at Stake, it looks like the pressure is more on Verstappen to protect the lead than Hamilton to chase the lead.

The driver’s championship is lined by the books at 1.64 for Hamilton and 2.25 for Verstappen. That shows what they think. It’s Hamilton getting that driver’s trophy at the end of the final race of the season. Lol. But it’s been a while since we had a good season like this. So all good no matter which side you’re on.

Cnut237

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Quote from: Koal-84 on November 22, 2021, 09:34:55 AM

OK thanks for the assessment, didn't know Hamilton didn't use the new engine in Qatar, is there a reason for that, or did Mercedes decide we don't need the new engine here as we are superior anyway?

I think the reasoning was that there just weren't enough long straights in Qatar, and they would get more advantage from it in Saudi Arabia. It's kind of counterintuitive, because the engine gives Mercedes an advantage, so you might think they're more likely to use it at a circuit that is thought to favour Red Bull, like Qatar... but it turns out they're less likely to use it there, because the benefit is less. This is why I think Mercedes are looking very strong for Saudi Arabia, it's a track that is supposed to suit them, plus Hamilton's nearly new engine should give an additional speed advantage.

Qatar surprised me, particularly that huge 0.4s gap in qualifying. That's Hamilton with an old engine at a supposed Red Bull track. I would think Red Bull are panicking a bit, hence the antics of Horner, for which he was reprimanded.

But it's unlikely Hamilton would come away from Saudi with the championship lead, unless Bottas can somehow finish ahead of Verstappen... which is stretching credibility a bit. Verstappen in a go-kart would beat Bottas in a Merc.

Koal-84

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Quote from: Cnut237 on November 22, 2021, 09:05:24 AM

Quote from: Koal-84 on November 22, 2021, 07:38:22 AM

I'm curious whether in Saudi Arabia the dominance of Hamilton and Mercedes will be so strong again.

I would expect it to be stronger.
Saudi Arabia is widely considered to be a track that would favour Mercedes. Qatar is not.
Hamilton has his new Brazil engine back for Saudi Arabia. In Qatar he used an old one. Whilst in Saudi it won't be 100% new, it has still only done one race, so will be new-ish, which always gives a performance advantage.

Of course Max being Max, and supremely fast, he always has a chance. Even if Hamilton takes pole by half a second again, if Max can start second and beat Hamilton off the line at the start, he won't relinquish the place easily.

Nothing is certain of course, but if I had to pick a most likely outcome, I'd expect a Hamilton win with Max second, then a winner-takes-all final race of the season. I just hope it isn't decided by a DNF or grid penalties.

OK thanks for the assessment, didn't know Hamilton didn't use the new engine in Qatar, is there a reason for that, or did Mercedes decide we don't need the new engine here as we are superior anyway?

Defect can happen to anyone or a crash, but hope not that the championship is decided by a crash of the teammate. It is very close but with the top speed on the straights Mercedes has a decisive advantage when overtaking. But we will see on a new track is also as good as anything possible, no team has experience there.

Cnut237

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Quote from: Koal-84 on November 22, 2021, 07:38:22 AM

I'm curious whether in Saudi Arabia the dominance of Hamilton and Mercedes will be so strong again.

I would expect it to be stronger.
Saudi Arabia is widely considered to be a track that would favour Mercedes. Qatar is not.
Hamilton has his new Brazil engine back for Saudi Arabia. In Qatar he used an old one. Whilst in Saudi it won't be 100% new, it has still only done one race, so will be new-ish, which always gives a performance advantage.

Of course Max being Max, and supremely fast, he always has a chance. Even if Hamilton takes pole by half a second again, if Max can start second and beat Hamilton off the line at the start, he won't relinquish the place easily.

Nothing is certain of course, but if I had to pick a most likely outcome, I'd expect a Hamilton win with Max second, then a winner-takes-all final race of the season. I just hope it isn't decided by a DNF or grid penalties.

Koal-84

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Good race from Verstappen, more was not inside, Hamilton and Mercedes was just too strong, the second place of Verstappen including the fastest lap was the maximum yesterday. I'm curious whether in Saudi Arabia the dominance of Hamilton and Mercedes will be so strong again. The world championship of driver and constructor is getting tighter and more exciting.

Cnut237

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Quote from: AndySt on November 21, 2021, 06:31:29 PM

I do not think that Valtteri should be blamed for everything in the last race, yet the chosen strategy of delaying the pit stop played a big role here, when the tire of the car could no longer withstand the load.

I think the strategy was a consequence of his poor position, which was his own fault. He was stuck behind a lot of cars, has a fast car, but isn't any good at overtaking. Best strategy is probably a one-stop, so that he can overtake everyone as they pit... but of course it didn't work here.

Quote from: AndySt on November 21, 2021, 06:31:29 PM

Max still remains at the head of the championship, but his chances no longer look as confident as they seemed until recently

I think that extra fastest lap point could prove crucial, especially given what has happened so far this season. Mercedes are expected to dominate on the next track, and Hamilton will also bring his new Brazil engine back for this race. Bottas is useless, so we might expect Hamilton first and Verstappen second. There is almost zero chance of Hamilton getting fastest lap, as Perez would just pit and take it back off him... in which case we might expect to see Verstappen leading by a single point, going into the final race... in which case, what's the chance of an "I was just racing hard!" incident where Verstappen 'accidentally' crashes into Hamilton, and forces them both to DNF... giving Max the title by one point.

Not saying it will happen this way, but it's not particularly unlikely, either. Championships have been decided this way before, back in the Schumacher era, so it's hardly unprecedented.

What I hope for is just fair racing from everyone.

AndySt

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Quote from: Cnut237 on November 21, 2021, 02:14:56 PM

Quote from: LTU_btc on November 21, 2021, 12:15:02 PM

It was nice to see how Verstappen managed to get up from P7 to P2 just in few laps.

Yes, he recovered well, as expected, he's a good driver, like Hamilton.
Compare with Bottas who actually started ahead of Verstappen. In theory he could have acted as a travelling roadblock and kept Verstappen behind him and in the low points. But obviously in reality it's different. Bottas again did Hamilton zero favours in his battle for the title, he's not so much a second driver as a nothing driver, may as well not even be there.

Quote from: LTU_btc on November 21, 2021, 12:15:02 PM

I liked Qatar track, expected that it will be worse. But I'm not so positive about tracks of remaining two races....

One point to note is that out of the final three tracks of the season, Qatar was the one that was supposed to suit Red Bull. The Merc pace here was ominous... but it keeps the title battle alive.

Indeed, to Hamilton's great regret, Bottas has failed in recent races to create the necessary support for his teammate by restraining Verstappen and sending him to third place. However, I do not think that Valtteri should be blamed for everything in the last race, yet the chosen strategy of delaying the pit stop played a big role here, when the tire of the car could no longer withstand the load. Therefore, Max still remains at the head of the championship, but his chances no longer look as confident as they seemed until recently, when Verstappen made an engine change and, thanks to a lucky coincidence, still escaped to second place. Hamilton responded to this later in Mexico and it turned out very well.

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The track got overtake potential but the race was boring.
Only Mercedes and Redbull are improving their cars while the others team left their cars months ago.

Solid performance for Hamilton and Max while their teammates, especially Bottas failed this week again.

The race for the title is closer than ever, in the next GP Mercedes will use the Brazilian "overpowered engine".

Cnut237

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Quote from: LTU_btc on November 21, 2021, 12:15:02 PM

It was nice to see how Verstappen managed to get up from P7 to P2 just in few laps.

Yes, he recovered well, as expected, he's a good driver, like Hamilton.

Compare with Bottas who actually started ahead of Verstappen. In theory he could have acted as a travelling roadblock and kept Verstappen behind him and in the low points. But obviously in reality it's different. Bottas again did Hamilton zero favours in his battle for the title, he's not so much a second driver as a nothing driver, may as well not even be there.

Quote from: LTU_btc on November 21, 2021, 12:15:02 PM

I liked Qatar track, expected that it will be worse. But I'm not so positive about tracks of remaining two races....

One point to note is that out of the final three tracks of the season, Qatar was the one that was supposed to suit Red Bull. The Merc pace here was ominous... but it keeps the title battle alive.

Jackl87

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This one was a rather uneventful race i have to say as the only exciting moments this time were the start and the pit stops. Sadly this is often the case in modern formula 1 grand prixs but the last few races were a little more exciting and i already got used to that

. Verstappen had a great start where he immediately gained 3 positions and he also acted very clever when he pulled back against Alonso because if he would have risked everything there it would have been quite possible that they would have crashed and the race would have been over for Verstappen, but he pulled back and managed to overtake Alonso only a few moments later.
The championship is now completely open again.

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