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Topic: MtGox reclaim procedure? - page 2. (Read 9615 times)

sr. member
Activity: 274
Merit: 250
May 24, 2014, 03:56:15 PM
#29
Considering [MtGOX clients] as "unsecured creditors" who should have known better, comes dangerously close to saying "blame the victims."

While the Government of Japan has nothing to be ashamed of, neither do the depositors, nor should they ever feel in the least bit embarrassed about having been taken advantage of. They acted in good faith, and their only mistake was to put blind faith in the world's once-largest bitcoin exchange head-quartered in Tokyo, Japan.
Governments, police, laws, and regulations were not created for fun.  They were invented precisely to prevent scams like MtGOX.  

If this is true, then they failed in this case.
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
May 24, 2014, 03:10:18 PM
#28
Considering [MtGOX clients] as "unsecured creditors" who should have known better, comes dangerously close to saying "blame the victims."

While the Government of Japan has nothing to be ashamed of, neither do the depositors, nor should they ever feel in the least bit embarrassed about having been taken advantage of. They acted in good faith, and their only mistake was to put blind faith in the world's once-largest bitcoin exchange head-quartered in Tokyo, Japan.
I do not intend to "blame the victim"; what happened at MtGOX was a crime, the only questions remaining are by whom, when and how.  (Since the "transaction malleability hack" has already been shown to be another lie, the management is not out of suspicion yet.)

But, still, the clients should be embarassed for trusting their money to a business that they knew was intentionally outside the government's control -- opaque, unregulated, unaudited, usecured, and meant to be that way.

Governments, police, laws, and regulations were not created for fun.  They were invented precisely to prevent scams like MtGOX. 
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
May 24, 2014, 10:00:54 AM
#27
Some free comments, worth every cent of the price:

* The Japanese government has no obligation to help MtGOX customers, beyond providing the standard legal mechanisms for handling bankruptcies; and has nothing to be ashamed of.  It is the people who chose to put their money into bitcoin, and entrust their bitcoins to Mark, who should be embarrassed about the affair.
Everyone recognizes, even at the highest levels, that what happened to depositor's bitcoins and cash at Mt. Gox was very unfortunate. That is not in question. Considering them as "unsecured creditors" who should have known better, comes dangerously close to saying "blame the victims."

While the Government of Japan has nothing to be ashamed of, neither do the depositors, nor should they ever feel in the least bit embarrassed about having been taken advantage of. They acted in good faith, and their only mistake was to put blind faith in the world's once-largest bitcoin exchange head-quartered in Tokyo, Japan.
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
May 24, 2014, 09:22:48 AM
#26
Some free comments, worth every cent of the price:

* Once you realize that someone has told a flat lie (such as "MtGOX is solvent and your coins are safe"), you should ignore anything else he may say or write, and should not waste any time interacting with him.  If the MtGOX website is still under Mark's control, you should not trust anything you read there.  The court-appointed liquidators are the only persons you should interact with.

* Legal procedures usually require physical paper documents.  E-mails and electronic documents can be easily faked and usually have no legal status. Paper documents at least can be subjected to forensic analysis.  So it is not surprising that the liquidators want paper mail.

* When a company goes bankrupt, creditors normally recover only part of their due, and only after a long time and with significant paperwork.  That is normal; it is the reason why people are usually very unhappy when a company that owes them money goes bankrupt.

* For that reason, creditors who are owed modest sums often do not bother to file a claim; they just write off the entire amount as a loss and move on.

* If the leaked database is to be trusted, MtGOX had less than 20'000 accounts with 1 BTC or more in them.  So it is likely that only a few thousand clients will bother to file a claim.

* Creditors should file criminal charges, or press the liquidators to do so, if they think that the management was dishonest and may have taken possession of company assets.  That will take even longer, and may not be very fruitful, but it is important that it be done -- to discourage them and other scammers to keep scamming.

* Returning a small fraction of what the victims lost, after they have internalized their loss, is a psychological trick that scammers frequently use.  The victims get so happy to get something back that they lose interest in prosecuting the scammer, even though he still has taken a lot of money from them.

* The Japanese government has no obligation to help MtGOX customers, beyond providing the standard legal mechanisms for handling bankruptcies; and has nothing to be ashamed of.  It is the people who chose to put their money into bitcoin, and entrust their bitcoins to Mark, who should be embarrassed about the affair.
hero member
Activity: 490
Merit: 500
May 19, 2014, 12:22:17 PM
#25
Quote
Perhaps we all should write stern letters to Japans respective embassies in our home countries, expressing concern about the lax attitude by Japan in regards to resolving these issues.
The Japanese government has everything to lose, and nothing to gain, by allowing Mt. Gox's liquidation to proceed. Under those circumstances then, one can only assume that everything possible is already being done to resolve this matter.
Personally I'd just like to see justice happen, but seeing how Japanese culture shoves everything under the rug that's not 'nice', 'comfortable' or 'clean', I really don't have much hopes that anything will happen.
Please give the Japanese government a little credit for intelligence. Anyone can see that what happened at Mt. Gox is very unfortunate. Prime Minister Abe's administration is trying to enhance Japan's attractiveness as an investment destination, not detract from it.

The ruling Liberal Democratic Party in Japan has a committee working on how best to handle this debacle as well as bitcoin in general. When the timing is right, and a consensus has been reached among Japanese leaders, there will be an announcement. One thing is for certain, the Tokyo bankruptcy court in no way has the final word on this matter.

In general I won't give any government much credit. Of course they works, but they're very slow moving (most of the time), and transparency, honesty and efficiency is most of the time sacrificed. If the Japanese govt wanted to be public about all of this, I'm sure they could've put out press releases frequently, and even seized the mtgox.com domain and providing updates from there, and of course Mark and associates would need to be put in jail until the case was solved. How hard could it be for a small expert team to solve this case, given full access to all resources, or at least provide some clue? The truth is that we don't know anything.

Sure the govt agencies are working behind closed doors in their own tempo and will give us updates whenever they feel like, but I would much rather have trusted a small 7-man team to solve the entire case in a couple of months..

There are fiat trails for all missing fiats, 200k btc is surely recovered, Marks btc should all be confiscated, and Mark should be put under immense pressure till he cracks, along with Gay-Buchery and any other that might be involved.

The problem is that bureaucrats and politicians don't really care about having things done. Some of them do, but many of them are only concerned about getting through their day defending their own position, and doing the minimal amount required. There's of course the occasional hardworking honest guy, but in general, the bigger an entity becomes, the more bureaucratic it becomes.

If you want me to applaud the Japanese govt. I will not be first in the queue.

Check this out:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2013/12/31/258655342/japans-state-secrets-law-hailed-by-u-s-denounced-by-japanese

The penalties for violators are harsh: 10 years in prison for civil servants who leak classified information; five years for citizens convicted of abetting leaks.

And Washington put pressure on Japan to make it happen..

Read this story:
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-02-16/the-story-behind-the-olympus-scandal
Another source: http://www.acfe.com/woodford/

"But the basic rule in Japan is you don't ever publicly criticize."

I've heard that is's not customary to critisize Nikkei-listed companies, and I believe the Olympus scandal happened because of foreign media.

There are many good things about Japan, but as in most countries, there's a lot of bad things as well.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
May 19, 2014, 08:21:20 AM
#24
Quote
Perhaps we all should write stern letters to Japans respective embassies in our home countries, expressing concern about the lax attitude by Japan in regards to resolving these issues.
The Japanese government has everything to lose, and nothing to gain, by allowing Mt. Gox's liquidation to proceed. Under those circumstances then, one can only assume that everything possible is already being done to resolve this matter.
Personally I'd just like to see justice happen, but seeing how Japanese culture shoves everything under the rug that's not 'nice', 'comfortable' or 'clean', I really don't have much hopes that anything will happen.
Please give the Japanese government a little credit for intelligence. Anyone can see that what happened at Mt. Gox is very unfortunate. Prime Minister Abe's administration is trying to enhance Japan's attractiveness as an investment destination, not detract from it.

The ruling Liberal Democratic Party in Japan has a committee working on how best to handle this debacle as well as bitcoin in general. When the timing is right, and a consensus has been reached among Japanese leaders, there will be an announcement. One thing is for certain, the Tokyo bankruptcy court in no way has the final word on this matter.
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
May 19, 2014, 08:01:21 AM
#23

Some people are just nitpickers huh?. Now, get back to your assembly programming, or inputting binary for hand, or whatever your hobby is.

If someone says "the instructions for filing claims are there" and links an article which doesn't contain any such instruction, and someone else points this out... that's not "nitpicking", it's "please just stop telling bullshits".
hero member
Activity: 490
Merit: 500
May 19, 2014, 05:34:08 AM
#22

Some people are just nitpickers huh?. Now, get back to your assembly programming, or inputting binary for hand, or whatever your hobby is.
hero member
Activity: 490
Merit: 500
May 19, 2014, 05:32:44 AM
#21
Quote
Perhaps we all should write stern letters to Japans respective embassies in our home countries, expressing concern about the lax attitude by Japan in regards to resolving these issues.
The Japanese government has everything to lose, and nothing to gain, by allowing Mt. Gox's liquidation to proceed. Under those circumstances then, one can only assume that everything possible is already being done to resolve this matter.

Perhaps I'm a cynic, but to me it seems like most embassies for most countries are rather polite in their communication, but unless you have some really serious issues or have money or power to back up your team, it seems like issues never are cared for, resolved and simply vanishes in the 'void'.

Perhaps it's because contact initiated by a single person just isn't important enough, isn't prioritized, they don't have enough resources, or they simply don't care.

If I wrote to the Japan embassy explaining to them that the way they're handling the MtGox case is a complete disgrace and they're making a fool of themselves on an international scale, I probably would achieve nothing, except from perhaps being added to some list for being a 'difficult person' having a negative view of Japan, and then perhaps I would've been taken aside if I ever enter Japan, for questioning?

But after all, we're all big boys, and perhaps we should not even care about what govts do in a case liket his, as bitcoin does not run well with the established system. It's kind of a paradox that bitcoin users run to the established system for help when something goes pear shaped.

Personally I'd just like to see justice happen, but seeing how Japanese culture shoves everything under the rug that's not 'nice', 'comfortable' or 'clean', I really don't have much hopes that anything will happen.

Isn't Japan the same country that made some rushed through law making it illegal for journalists to be critical? And isn't Japan the country that keep wrongdoings of companies on the stock market largely hidden? And isn't Japan the country that does not see lightly on anyone criticizing authority and leadership?

In such a climate, what impression would a single complaint make ?
full member
Activity: 181
Merit: 100
May 19, 2014, 05:27:45 AM
#20
OK but seriously, where exactly are these reclaim instructions??

They aren't anywhere, this thread is just FUD. The only official statement thus far is "they will be published later".





It is linked from mtgox.com

It's under Press releases and announcements:
2014-04-24(002): 破産手続開始決定書 / Bankruptcy proceedings written decision



Those are NOT reclaim instructions.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
May 19, 2014, 04:48:26 AM
#19
Quote
Perhaps we all should write stern letters to Japans respective embassies in our home countries, expressing concern about the lax attitude by Japan in regards to resolving these issues.
The Japanese government has everything to lose, and nothing to gain, by allowing Mt. Gox's liquidation to proceed. Under those circumstances then, one can only assume that everything possible is already being done to resolve this matter.
hero member
Activity: 490
Merit: 500
May 19, 2014, 03:50:18 AM
#18
But on a serious note:

Everything about this case is classic scam tactics, always stalling.

The customer details are available to MtGox, and automated reclaim systems/payout systems is trivial to implement.

Perhaps we all should write stern letters to Japans respective embassies in our home countries, expressing concern about the lax attitude by Japan in regards to resolving these issues.

If I had millions at stake, I would've ruffled my feathers quite seriously, but I have only small fry, so it's a question about how much I should care about the entire issue. That being said, I would've loved for everyone to stay together on this one, but seriously, it would not take much time or money spent before I'm running into the negative in this case.
hero member
Activity: 490
Merit: 500
May 19, 2014, 03:46:36 AM
#17
OK but seriously, where exactly are these reclaim instructions??

They aren't anywhere, this thread is just FUD. The only official statement thus far is "they will be published later".





It is linked from mtgox.com

It's under Press releases and announcements:
2014-04-24(002): 破産手続開始決定書 / Bankruptcy proceedings written decision

full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
May 18, 2014, 12:04:41 PM
#16
But the creditors' meeting is on July 23rd, only two months away. So it isn't FUD to wonder where the hell those forms are.

It surely is FUD to say "you have to fill your forms NOW or you will get nothing". There are no cleverly-hidden forms to fill, the exact procedure to file claims has simply not been published yet.

Quote
Does anyone have any information about when the claim forms will be released?

Nothing else has officially been said after the last published statement. Looks like the only thing to do is wait (as usual with Mt.Gox).
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
May 18, 2014, 10:47:50 AM
#15
Quote
But the creditors' meeting is on July 23rd, only two months away. So it isn't FUD to wonder where the hell those forms are.

Good point. Perhaps things are not quite as they seem with good old Mr. Kobayashi (Maru?) Wink
newbie
Activity: 33
Merit: 0
May 18, 2014, 10:34:11 AM
#14
Hmm. The FAQ released on the same day on pg 4 does say:

"We will disclose the necessary information for the creditors through the Company’s
website later, and detailed information for the filing of proofs of claims, including the form of
the filing document, the method of filling in such document and the process of the filing will
also be disclosed through the Company’s website at a later date."

But the creditors' meeting is on July 23rd, only two months away. So it isn't FUD to wonder where the hell those forms are.

Does anyone have any information about when the claim forms will be released?






OK but seriously, where exactly are these reclaim instructions??

They aren't anywhere, this thread is just FUD. The only official statement thus far is "they will be published later".

sr. member
Activity: 339
Merit: 250
May 18, 2014, 09:54:10 AM
#13
either get a lawyer and file a claim (if you have enough money) or....

forget about it.
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
May 18, 2014, 09:18:53 AM
#12
OK but seriously, where exactly are these reclaim instructions??

They aren't anywhere, this thread is just FUD. The only official statement thus far is "they will be published later".
full member
Activity: 181
Merit: 100
May 18, 2014, 08:36:34 AM
#11
OK but seriously, where exactly are these reclaim instructions??
hero member
Activity: 490
Merit: 500
May 18, 2014, 05:54:49 AM
#10
Let me get this straight.... The reclaim instructions are buried somewhere in one of the PDFs posted on mtgox.com and people have to learn about it from a forum? How about the fucking administrator get all the email addresses used to log into Gox and send a fucking notice to the users??

We can't have that. It would be too elaborate and complicated, and besides, all users would be notified, which would increase the amount of payouts!!! And besides, it's important to create a lot of paper work, to fill up all those lawyer and clerk hours, so everything can drag out in traditional lawyer/curt/law style.

Efficiency, justice and honest communication, what planet are you from? We can't have that! It's too complicated!
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