Topic: Nazis were socialists - Change my mind - page 3. (Read 1460 times)

"direct control" = centralization
collectivization = centralization
You know what the difference between collectivization run by "government" and by the "proletariat" is? Nothing, they are both run by individual humans with all the same flaws. You gave the definition of socialism, and there is no difference between what you are describing and past failures. "Direct control" is imaginary and a marketing point, not a possible reality, that is until we all get uploaded into the matrix and can use our brains to collectively administer our world. Until that time any collectivization is equivalent to centralization under the government. Yes, a cult member, because cult members are notorious for being against collectives aren't they?

What do you want me to do against such amount of bad faith?

Someone else gives his definition of socialism and it becomes mine.
Somehow me explaining the difference between direct control and centralized control isn't taken into account.

Dude just speak to a mirror it will be easier xD

I'd say anyone with a brain understood the difference between nationalization and proletariat controlled and I even gave real world example, if you can't read I can't do anything for you because it's a forum so the base of everything is your ability to read.

So read it all again, see that I asked Iluvbitcoins his definition and started the discussion with this, see the example of real world proletariat direct control... And maybe see that you can think by yourself a little bit rather than just preaching "socialism is bad and genocide and horrible and worst that Satan himself on earth" like some cult member

a nazi fights for the interests of people understanding his national langauge,

a gazi fights for the interests of people fighting in his region.

But what is a geographic socialite?     

what is the difference between a gazi and a nazi?

the gazi is a geographic socialists, and a nazi is a lingual or even a racial socialist.

When you hear about all the plays and concerts the Nazi's went to, you realize they were socialites, not socialists.

 

Of course we are.  We look at why things failed in the past and adjust the system to avoid that happening again.  Just like with vehicles.  When a vehicle crashes, NTSB doesn't ban all travel from all vehicles.  They do an investigation and then, if need be, they adjust standards and regulations to prevent those failures from occurring again in the future.  Then, other things fail, more people die, and they repeat the process.  All while travel becomes more and more safe. 

What you want to do is narrowly focus on the failures in order to prevent progress.  You want us to "throw the baby out with the bathwater".

Like I said, fantasies and imagination. You aren't actually addressing any of these flaws just imagining a future where they are magically solved.

This is how system design works.  Old versions of the telephone are still telephones but new telephones do not share all of their flaws.   We keep redefining because we keep improving upon previous designs.  100 years from now, it will have shifted again based on the failures of the 21st century. 

thats because stalin was in power, the king also puts his fellow citizens into slavish work, in the west instead of stalin there is the masonic banking cartel, and they are having everyone else being their salary/wage slaves.

thats how life is. majority of people dont have power they have to give power to others.

regards

Hard to do once you've edited your post.

You don't understand because you don't read. France nationalized healthcare, education, transports, energy and military industry by force plus some heavy industries like cars (not just the funds, the workers are picked by either the government or the unions/public organization). Now only parts of this remain that's why I say it went from 60% to 40%.

And if you haven't understood the difference between government control and proletariat control I don't see what I can add to this debate.

1. I'm from Croatia, not USA.
2. Quote the part where I've insulted you.
3. Having a taxpayer funded education system or taxpayer funded healthcare is not "controlling" the economy, that's taking part in it.
When you can pick workers and managers in companies then you control the economy.
4. Proleteriat controlled can exist in capitalism as long as it's voluntary.

What's your definition of socialism?
I still don't understand how France is socialism but National Socialist Germany isn't.

Aaaaaaaaaaah ok I see. The problem is that you have absolutely no idea of how the rest of the world works. So you don't see the problem because you're not even aware that the rest of the world is not USA. That in lots of countries, government and public groups directly control huge parts of the economy.

Well I would be glad to explain you how in France 40% of the GDP is not controlled by private companies for example (it was 60% 40 years ago) but you're not only uneducated, like TECHSHARE you like to insult people you discuss with and don't really read them (I've made the difference between nationalisation and proletariat controlled pretty clear I believe).

So please, stay in your world where socialism has only one definition (polysemic isn't real sure) and the whole world is identical to USA.

How do France,Iran and China control their economies?
They do not decide who works where, how much he gets paid, how much you can produce, they don't nationalize companies, it's all decided individually unlike in National Socialist Germany where the party decides that.

Socialism existed before Marx.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Marx_socialists
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_socialism#Origins_of_socialism

It's not "my" definition, it's the definition
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/socialism.asp

The Nazis were not socialists They fight against the community and try to improve it They did not try to run any initiative privately. Generally speaking of socialist God, God maintains opposition between them This is usually the case with religion Those who are anti-social work are socialist They all work in a destructive way

Please, can you try to read with the least amount of bias what I've written? I understand that you don't like socialism and it's fine, I'm just trying to show you that your definition of socialism isn't very useful because it applies either to nearly every country or to none of them that's all.

I don't want to fight here, I try to have a civil debate over an important social idea.

If I sum up what you've said until now, for you a country is "socialist" when the government controls parts of the economy directly.

The problem is that by this definition, nearly all countries in the world CURRENTLY have such government.

So it's not a very useful definition because it designates a group far too wide of countries and societies. What's the point of a word that can qualify at the same time Iran, France and China?

I'm trying to tell you that socialism wasn't defined by Marx as a society where GOVERNMENT owns parts of the economy but where PEOPLE own parts of the economy.

And it's not the "real socialism hasn't been tried" argument because it HAS BEEN TRIED. It was the case until very recently in France.

And by this definition, Nazis were not socialist, they were just a dictatorship.


Can you at least agree with me that if your definition of socialism is "when government owns parts of the economy" then EVERY DICTATORSHIP is socialist. Which, again, makes the word quite useless.

Which of the countries you've written talked like this?
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.53319034
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.53314721

Which country was giving quotas on production, price controls, deciding what's supposed to be produced, how much of it and when, nationalized entities, dissolved companies, forbade farm selling, eliminated importing, had wage controls and made it impossible to fire someone, controlled and decided who works&where for how much?


Farms up to 308 acres could not be sold, divided, mortgaged or foreclosed on for debt.
Reich Food Estate was established to regulate the conditions and production of the farmers.

In 1936, Göring's Four Year Plan was inaugurated. Protectionism was decreed and autarchy the desire-the so-called "Battle of Production." Consumer imports were nearly eliminated, price and wage controls were enacted, and vast state projects were built to manufacture raw materials.

All employment was under the exclusive control of government employment offices which determined who would work where and for how much. And on June 22, 1938, the Office of the Four Year Plan instituted guaranteed employment by conscripting labor. Every German worker was assigned a position from which he could not be released by the employer, nor could he switch jobs, without permission of the government employment office. Worker absenteeism was met with fines or imprisonment-all in the name of job security. A popular Nazi slogan at the time was "the Common Interest before Self"!

Corporations below a capitalization of $40,000 were dissolved and the founding of any below a capitalization of $2,000,000 was forbidden, which wiped out a fifth of all German businesses.

Private firearms were outlawed and confiscated

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You didn't answer me again. Tell me which country had socialism or has real socialism never been tried?