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Topic: Nazis were socialists - Change my mind - page 7. (Read 1460 times)

legendary
Activity: 2296
Merit: 1335
Don't let others control your BTC -> self custody
December 11, 2019, 12:04:38 PM
#16

Nazi is a neologism, during that era members of the party never referred to themselves as Nazis. That's a new made up term.
They always called themselves National Socialists, and yes, they wanted socialism.
And socialism was a neologism 60 years before Hitler came to power. 

You're trying to put a socialist label on NSDAP, even though the party was not completely socialist in its nature. Opposing capitalism doesn't mean you're a full socialist.
If you compare nazi socialism with soviet socialism you'll see that they're different.
Hitler did not want a class to rule over other classes like it was in other socialist republics. He wanted a nation to rule over other nations. He didn't want wealth to be distributed among the people but for the whole world to be under a single leadership and used socialism to gain support of the masses.  
legendary
Activity: 2198
Merit: 1150
Freedom&Honor
December 11, 2019, 11:50:10 AM
#15
It's hard for you guys to find common ground because all of you are right. NSDAP wasn't a normal left socialist party, but it also wasn't a normal right nationalist party. It combined both and these views are usually on the opposite side of the spectrum.

How it came to be this way? While normal left socialism is about giving power to the working class and the revolutionary fight for freedom, Germans had their own interpretation. To them socialism (called Spengler's prussian socialism) was the revolutionary fight of the German nation. While in socialism and communism classes of people felt oppressed and felt the need to fight for their rights, in nazism the whole nation felt like it has to regain its status lost after the first world war.

It's interesting that the main enemy of NSDAP was KPD (Kommunistische Partei Deutschlands), so we can't say that they really wanted communism and socialism in their country. They only used these ideas because they were popular at the time. How to get the whole political spectrum on your side? Create a party that combines some ideas of the far left and some of the far right Grin

That's a wrong look at things.

Nazi is a neologism, during that era members of the party never referred to themselves as Nazis. That's a new made up term.
They always called themselves National Socialists, and yes, they wanted socialism.
I will post more information when I get back from class to prove this point.

However, what you will understand if you read through the literature and nationalsocialists scripture.
Nationalsocialists weren't Marixsts
Nationalsocialists mostly despised Marx, they thought his form of internationsocialism is a Jewish trick and despised mostly the lack of nationalism in it.
However, they were socialists and openly advocated for socialism, just not the Marx type of socialism. They were building their own.
He's not the only socialist on the planet, he's just the one who inspired communism.
legendary
Activity: 2296
Merit: 1335
Don't let others control your BTC -> self custody
December 11, 2019, 10:17:04 AM
#14
It's hard for you guys to find common ground because all of you are right. NSDAP wasn't a normal left socialist party, but it also wasn't a normal right nationalist party. It combined both and these views are usually on the opposite side of the spectrum.

How it came to be this way? While normal left socialism is about giving power to the working class and the revolutionary fight for freedom, Germans had their own interpretation. To them socialism (called Spengler's prussian socialism) was the revolutionary fight of the German nation. While in socialism and communism classes of people felt oppressed and felt the need to fight for their rights, in nazism the whole nation felt like it has to regain its status lost after the first world war.

It's interesting that the main enemy of NSDAP was KPD (Kommunistische Partei Deutschlands), so we can't say that they really wanted communism and socialism in their country. They only used these ideas because they were popular at the time. How to get the whole political spectrum on your side? Create a party that combines some ideas of the far left and some of the far right Grin
full member
Activity: 392
Merit: 115
December 11, 2019, 10:10:03 AM
#13
So for you the question is not what they have done (because they haven't nationalized the industry in the end) but what they said they were going to do once at the power?

Ok. Why not.

That means I can make you and TECSHARE vote for me if I say I won't nationalize anything and delete all regulations even if you know I won't?

Ok. Why not.
legendary
Activity: 2198
Merit: 1150
Freedom&Honor
December 11, 2019, 09:18:32 AM
#12
I have already posted the DAP party program before they changed their name (from 1913.) so here's the more relevant one from 1918. when they changed their name to the today-known NSDAP (National Socialist Workers Party)
https://www.docdroid.net/1vMbN4A/national-socialist-workers-party.pdf

So the name is enough of a proof right?

So Democratic Republic of China or the  Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea) are actually democracies and not dictatorships?

Wahou, I didn't know it was so easy!

Nazis were fascists, hence they were in favor of gathering all powers under one man. That's not socialism. That's dictatorship.

And about the socialist policies in there program, they were never applied so... Unless of course a foodstamp program is a socialist policy for you. But that means all the countries in the world were socialist countries at this period :/

Like I said...

Nah, they were only called the "National Socialist German Workers' Party", they weren't socialists just like every other failed attempt at socialism wasn't socialist.

This is so predictable I had to get it out of the way first thing.

Yeah it's predictable that when you say something stupid someone will call it out as stupid Smiley

Saying that Nazis were socialists because they had socialist in their name is as stupid as calling north korea a democracy for the same reason.

It's not because they had in in their name, it's because it's the truth.
I'm posting chronologically, so you'll get even more info later into the thread.
full member
Activity: 392
Merit: 115
December 11, 2019, 06:17:11 AM
#11
So the name is enough of a proof right?

So Democratic Republic of China or the  Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea) are actually democracies and not dictatorships?

Wahou, I didn't know it was so easy!

Nazis were fascists, hence they were in favor of gathering all powers under one man. That's not socialism. That's dictatorship.

And about the socialist policies in there program, they were never applied so... Unless of course a foodstamp program is a socialist policy for you. But that means all the countries in the world were socialist countries at this period :/

Like I said...

Nah, they were only called the "National Socialist German Workers' Party", they weren't socialists just like every other failed attempt at socialism wasn't socialist.

This is so predictable I had to get it out of the way first thing.

Yeah it's predictable that when you say something stupid someone will call it out as stupid Smiley

Saying that Nazis were socialists because they had socialist in their name is as stupid as calling north korea a democracy for the same reason.
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
December 11, 2019, 05:05:05 AM
#10
So the name is enough of a proof right?

So Democratic Republic of China or the  Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea) are actually democracies and not dictatorships?

Wahou, I didn't know it was so easy!

Nazis were fascists, hence they were in favor of gathering all powers under one man. That's not socialism. That's dictatorship.

And about the socialist policies in there program, they were never applied so... Unless of course a foodstamp program is a socialist policy for you. But that means all the countries in the world were socialist countries at this period :/

Like I said...

Nah, they were only called the "National Socialist German Workers' Party", they weren't socialists just like every other failed attempt at socialism wasn't socialist.

This is so predictable I had to get it out of the way first thing.
full member
Activity: 392
Merit: 115
December 11, 2019, 04:42:10 AM
#9
So the name is enough of a proof right?

So Democratic Republic of China or the  Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea) are actually democracies and not dictatorships?

Wahou, I didn't know it was so easy!

Nazis were fascists, hence they were in favor of gathering all powers under one man. That's not socialism. That's dictatorship.

And about the socialist policies in there program, they were never applied so... Unless of course a foodstamp program is a socialist policy for you. But that means all the countries in the world were socialist countries at this period :/
hero member
Activity: 1764
Merit: 584
December 11, 2019, 12:26:18 AM
#8
Well they called themselves as such, if they identify as socialists, they must be socialists! I don't about the exact policies they implemented but at least in paper, they tried to be socialist. Anyway, something I just dug up that some people here might be able to discuss about.

Quote
TRANSLATION OF DOCUMENT 1708-PS
Edited by: Dr. Robert Ley
Published by: Central Publishing House of the N.S.D.A.P.
Franz Eher, successor Munich

The program of the NSDAP

The program is the political foundation of the NSDAP and accordingly the primary political law of the State. It has been made brief and clear intentionally.

All legal precepts must be applied in the spirit of the party program.

Since the taking over of control, the Fuehrer has succeeded in the realization of essential portions of the Party program from the fundamentals to the detail.

The Party Program of the NSDAP was proclaimed on the 24 February 1920 by Adolf Hitler at the first large Party gathering in Munich and since that day has remained unaltered. Within the national socialist philosophy is summarized in 25 points:

1. We demand the unification of all Germans in the Greater Germany on the basis of the right of self-determination of peoples.

2. We demand equality of rights for the German people in respect to the other nations; abrogation of the peace treaties of Versailles and St. Germain.

3. We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people, and colonization for our surplus population.

4. Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently no Jew can be a member of the race.

5. Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in Germany only as a guest, and must be under the authority of legislation for foreigners.

6. The right to determine matters concerning administration and law belongs only to the citizen. Therefore we demand that every public office, of any sort whatsoever, whether in the Reich, the county or municipality, be filled only by citizens. We combat the corrupting parliamentary economy, office-holding only according to party inclinations without consideration of character or abilities.

7. We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.

8. Any further immigration of non-citizens is to be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since the 2 August 1914, be forced immediately to leave the Reich.

9. All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.

10. The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all Consequently we demand:

11. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of rent-slavery

12. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).

14. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.

15. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.

16. We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.

17. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.

18. We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, Schieber and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.

19. We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.

20. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.

21. The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.

22. We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.

23. We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that: a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race: b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the State to be published. They may not be printed in the German language: c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications, or any influence on them, and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life, and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.

24. We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: common utility precedes individual utility.

25. For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.

Adolf Hitler proclaimed the following explanation for this program on the 13 April 1928:

Explanation

Regarding the false interpretations of Point 17 of the program of the NSDAP on the part of our opponents, the following definition is necessary:

"Since the NSDAP stands on the platform of private ownership it happens that the passage" gratuitous expropriation concerns only the creation of legal opportunities to expropriate if necessary, land which has been illegally acquired or is not administered from the view-point of the national welfare. This is directed primarily against the Jewish land-speculation companies.
legendary
Activity: 2198
Merit: 1150
Freedom&Honor
December 10, 2019, 09:18:07 PM
#7
Here are the party principles of the Deutsche Arbeiter Partei or the German Workers Party from 1913.
Adolf Hitler will later join the party
https://www.docdroid.net/4qIxCKf/party.pdf

Yet another "nazis were socialists" thread. Oh, come on, this is ridiculous.

They didn't anything to nationalize private enterprises. Just for example, military industry was private owned. Heavy machinery was private owned. Hell, even the oil and mining industry were in a private sector.

Even more, they were doing opposite policy including privatization of public enterprises. If this is a socialist policy then Margaret Thatcher was a socialist as well.

If socialism means complete nationalization of private enterprise, what's the difference between socialism and communism?

Quote
Just like their racism, which was merely a tool to rob the jews who were quite wealthy then.
Just like the kulaks.
legendary
Activity: 3108
Merit: 1359
December 10, 2019, 08:46:46 PM
#6
They have implemented many programs to redistribute wealth to the working class
NSDAP was a party of cleptocrats and it would be strange to publish such non-science fiction stories. They were doing everything to centralize wealth, and their military agression was yet another tool for that. Just like their racism, which was merely a tool to rob the jews who were quite wealthy then.

If you are not sure, read Hitler's Mein Kampf:
Well, then you should consider China as a People's Democratic Dictatorship.

http://www.icwa.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/ADB-75.pdf

Because Mao has written it in his fantasy novels. He even managed to write it down into chinese constitution.
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 1468
December 10, 2019, 08:42:35 PM
#5
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Workers%27_Party

Nazis were all three: socialists, nationalists, and racists.

They have implemented many programs to redistribute wealth to the working class:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlXqFgqOviw

If you are not sure, read Hitler's Mein Kampf:

https://srv-file7.gofile.io/download/AUqaIT/meinkampf.pdf
jr. member
Activity: 47
Merit: 7
December 10, 2019, 08:42:18 PM
#4
I'd say both sides at extremes work in similarly destructive way. Not to mention the fact that Maoist China and Soviet Union repressed, killed and enslaved more people than were killed during the both world wars
legendary
Activity: 3108
Merit: 1359
December 10, 2019, 08:36:57 PM
#3
Yet another "nazis were socialists" thread. Oh, come on, this is ridiculous.

They didn't anything to nationalize private enterprises. Just for example, military industry was private owned. Heavy machinery was private owned. Hell, even the oil and mining industry were in a private sector.

Even more, they were doing opposite policy including privatization of public enterprises. If this is a socialist policy then Margaret Thatcher was a socialist as well.
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
December 10, 2019, 07:54:15 PM
#2
Nah, they were only called the "National Socialist German Workers' Party", they weren't socialists just like every other failed attempt at socialism wasn't socialist.
legendary
Activity: 2198
Merit: 1150
Freedom&Honor
December 10, 2019, 07:46:31 PM
#1


Party principles of the German Workers Party from 1913.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.53314721

Party principles of the National Socialist Workers Party from 1918. (DAP changed their name to NSDAP)
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.53319034

Party principles from the first National Socialist party in the Reich (from 1918.)
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.53323636

Strasser program
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.53326816

Some random quotes
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.53323521

Note:
Edited some of these posts moving my replies downwards so it would be easier to read through the OP.
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