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Topic: New Mt Gox Press Release - Feb 10 - they are claiming flaw in bitcoin protocol ! - page 5. (Read 33066 times)

zyk
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 101
with reissuing fraud possible because of the bitcoin protocol itself , there needs to be a software applied which guarentees

that the same coins being tried to use

no exchange uses this up to date....so  EXCHANGES ARE UNSAFE
FTFY

sorry...he fixed it for me already..


but whats BTC gonna do without exchanges....at least in the shorttime??
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1018
Had Mt Gox been competent at all when designing their custom wallet software, they would have noted that tx-ids are mutable
You overstate your case, unless you wish to argue that Satoshi was not competent.

In any case, the reissue fraud is more or less independent of mutation.  The way you protect yourself against double payment when reissuing is that you must spend at least some of the same coins so that only one transaction or the other can get mined.  If you do this, no amount of mutation will result in funds loss (though it might confuse people!),  if you don't do this then you can still have payments doubled up even with no mutation at all.   (E.g. first payment delay, second authored, second gets confirmed, first gets rebroadcast and makes it in too).


with reissuing fraud possible because of the bitcoin protocol itself , there needs to be a software applied which guarentees

that the same coins being tried to use

no exchange uses this up to date....so  BTC is UNSAFE

Don't know if you are mentally challenged or just a FUD spreader.

Read again: BTC is perfectly safe. Transaction malleability is a well documented issue and its nothing to be worried about unless you run a custom bitcoin impletation which is vulnerable to transaction malleability. The standard implentation is (Bitcoin-QT, bitcoind) is perfectly safe.

sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
Cuddling, censored, unicorn-shaped troll.
that the same coins being tried to use

no exchange uses this up to date....so  BTC is UNSAFE

That is completely false, the coins sent on the second Tx are NOT the same.
There is no BTC serious flaw.

Client withdraws money
Client receives the coins
Client later calls MtGox support and says "i want the same amount of coins again, even though my balance is zero".
Mt Gox sends the same amount of coins again.

That's it.
legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 3191
Leave no FUD unchallenged
with reissuing fraud possible because of the bitcoin protocol itself , there needs to be a software applied which guarentees

that the same coins being tried to use

no exchange uses this up to date....so  EXCHANGES ARE UNSAFE
FTFY
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
Gox being gox.  Whenever something goes wrong with them it's never their fault and always the result of some outside factor.

I agree with others that by gox blaming bitcoin for the problem its going to lead to some really bad press in the coming days/weeks.  As usually though things will eventually smooth out as people realize bitcoin is still sound.
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
I haven't read this entire thread yet, but is this true? The TX ID can be modified and re-broadcast to effectively double-spend? If this is the case, not only is MtGox justified in their issues, but they've also demonstrated to the entire world how stupid this community is to believe BTC is without flaw and can't be taken to $0 if the right individuals were to go through this protocol with a fine-toothed comb. What a terrible concept to implement. What is the purpose of a TX ID if not to identify a TX? What could possibly be achieved by allowing such an ID to be modified?

You got Goxed  Smiley

It only shows how terrible software MtGox has.

The good news is Im confident MtGox is finally out of business and they will not scam more people with their fraction reserve practices
zyk
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 101
Had Mt Gox been competent at all when designing their custom wallet software, they would have noted that tx-ids are mutable
You overstate your case, unless you wish to argue that Satoshi was not competent.

In any case, the reissue fraud is more or less independent of mutation.  The way you protect yourself against double payment when reissuing is that you must spend at least some of the same coins so that only one transaction or the other can get mined.  If you do this, no amount of mutation will result in funds loss (though it might confuse people!),  if you don't do this then you can still have payments doubled up even with no mutation at all.   (E.g. first payment delay, second authored, second gets confirmed, first gets rebroadcast and makes it in too).


with reissuing fraud possible because of the bitcoin protocol itself , there needs to be a software applied which guarentees

that the same coins being tried to use

no exchange uses this up to date....so  BTC is UNSAFE
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
That's not actually a Bitcoin double-spend, though.
This. Quit talking about double spending, this is confusing. Notice that MtGox communication don't talk about double spend at all, either.
It's just a voluntary MtGox double send.

Yes, that is a more apt naming for it.

I just examined an outgoing transaction from Mt. Gox that I made earlier and how it got noted in the blockchain. Their regular scriptIn seems to be with an uncompressed pubkey. Anyone seen different scriptIns from Mt. Gox?
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1001
This is the land of wolves now & you're not a wolf
It seems that if they are going down, they want to try and take the entire ship with it
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 1199
Seems like a lot of us misunderstood gox annoucment.

Like we alreadyy know bug was in their system not in bitcoin network.
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
We must all do our parts to counter this bad press by creating Positive PR in the Media . Please support the bitcoin space mission https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-flag-going-to-space-yes-space-the-final-frontier-441303


I am trying to generate positive NEWS for Bitcoin


The damage has already been done we must know counteract this negative NEWS and start creating positive NEWS in the MEDIA
full member
Activity: 286
Merit: 100
Now, can somebody hack their news CMS so we can modify the statement?
There is not much that needs to be changed:

"A bug in OUR bitcoin software makes it possible ..."
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1005
Seems to me the problem here is that Gox, amazingly enough, is once again unable to meet its obligations and casts the blame on something, anything else, crashing the price of Bitcoin and generating bad press.  This is called pissing in the well.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
You overstate your case, unless you wish to argue that Satoshi was not competent.
Considering some of the bugs that made it into his initial release, it's at least safe to say he's a better cryptographer than software engineer.

In any case, the reissue fraud is more or less independent of mutation.  The way you protect yourself against double payment when reissuing is that you must spend at least some of the same coins so that only one transaction or the other can get mined.  If you do this, no amount of mutation will result in funds loss (though it might confuse people!),  if you don't do this then you can still have payments doubled up even with no mutation at all.   (E.g. first payment delay, second authored, second gets confirmed, first gets rebroadcast and makes it in too).
It appears that Mt Gox was trying to function using "dead reckoning" accounting by treating their internal database as canonical when in fact only the blockchain is canonical. This is incompetent accounting even in the fiat world - it's like going off your checkbook balance exclusively and never checking your actual bank account balance. (For everybody not born in ancient times, this is an analogy from the dark ages of the 1980s and 1990s).

That's what I meant by being incompetent. If one of your UTXOs gets spent by being included in a transaction that makes it into the blockchain, your wallet should notice this regardless of anything else you think should be happening. Theirs didn't - if it did they wouldn't have this problem.

This is in addition to other errors like not accounting for coin maturation and also their long, multi-year history of failing to respond to problems proactively when they are first pointed out as opposed to waiting for catastrophe to take action.
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
We must all do our parts to counter this bad press by creating Positive PR in the Media . Please support the bitcoin space mission https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-flag-going-to-space-yes-space-the-final-frontier-441303


I am trying to generate positive NEWS for Bitcoin
zyk
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 101
that implies thats really the bitcoin protcol itself which needs an urgent fix or it can´t get anymore traction...OMG
staff
Activity: 4284
Merit: 8808
Had Mt Gox been competent at all when designing their custom wallet software, they would have noted that tx-ids are mutable
You overstate your case, unless you wish to argue that Satoshi was not competent.

In any case, the reissue fraud is more or less independent of mutation.  The way you protect yourself against double payment when reissuing is that you must spend at least some of the same coins so that only one transaction or the other can get mined.  If you do this, no amount of mutation will result in funds loss (though it might confuse people!),  if you don't do this then you can still have payments doubled up even with no mutation at all.   (E.g. first payment delay, second authored, second gets confirmed, first gets rebroadcast and makes it in too).
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
Cuddling, censored, unicorn-shaped troll.
That's not actually a Bitcoin double-spend, though.
This. Quit talking about double spending, this is confusing. Notice that MtGox communication don't talk about double spend at all, either.
It's just a voluntary MtGox double send.
sr. member
Activity: 742
Merit: 250
Hmm... so Mt. Gox is clearly lying...i dont think they are stupid and that they dont realize that they ARE lying... Could this be for a reason to push down the price of BTC worldwide and buy some BTC on other exchanges to solve the BTC liquidity issue they might have? do you think this might be true?
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1001
minds.com/Wilikon
I haven't read this entire thread yet, but is this true? The TX ID can be modified and re-broadcast to effectively double-spend? If this is the case, not only is MtGox justified in their issues, but they've also demonstrated to the entire world how stupid this community is to believe BTC is without flaw and can't be taken to $0 if the right individuals were to go through this protocol with a fine-toothed comb. What a terrible concept to implement. What is the purpose of a TX ID if not to identify a TX? What could possibly be achieved by allowing such an ID to be modified?

Read it then.
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