No choice but to use the unavoidable middle man, the exchange companies. - page 4.

Kelward

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Quote from: Solosanz on August 13, 2023, 03:35:27 AM

Quote from: Kelward on August 13, 2023, 03:04:26 AM

It doesn't mean when you're use third party, you will be safe.

Middleman is always be a trusted, reputable and experienced, but if the middleman act unfair because the scammer bribed him, then what you can do? or maybe you have an evidence where you can prove if you're legit, but the scammer create a fake evidence in order to convince the middleman, if the middleman make a mistake by trusting the scammer, what you can do?

You made a valid point, because if the middleman is compromised then it becomes a double scam, where the victim becomes the overall loser. Therefore, one should not loose guard but be very cautious, in any financial dealings whether directly or using a middleman. This is why if someone must use middleman or exchanges as the case may be in bitcoin, to do any transaction, it is better to use the ones that have good track record. That is why reputable and trusted exchanges like Binance, who are very innovative, will stand the test of time, because trust is the key word in any financial matters.

Litzki1990

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P2P transactions are usually completed without any third party intervention. Third party transactions are somewhat risky and expensive. Only the middleman has to pay us without any reason. To solve this problem, the top exchanges have now introduced P2P systems where buying and selling activities can be conducted very easily without any third party intervention. P2P trading system is not risk free but of course there are risks but if you are careful then there is no chance of losing your money through such method. So before making such transactions, you must take utmost care and then proceed with the transaction.

Solosanz

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Quote from: Kelward on August 13, 2023, 03:04:26 AM

The concept of the middle man is an interesting topic in the study of economics, because of the argument about their relevance in business transactions. Some sees them as blessings, important intermediaries that makes transactions easy and convenient, while others sees than as an unavoidable evil, that you call to interferer, they reap and grow fat from other people's business dealings. Anyhow you look at it, whether you like them or not, they perform the important tasks of exchanges.

Because bitcoin P2P transactions are not one hundred percent reliable, especially when you're transacting with people that you don't know, using trusted exchanges becomes important because they guarantee peace of mind that most probably you won't be scammed.

It doesn't mean when you're use third party, you will be safe.

Middleman is always be a trusted, reputable and experienced, but if the middleman act unfair because the scammer bribed him, then what you can do? or maybe you have an evidence where you can prove if you're legit, but the scammer create a fake evidence in order to convince the middleman, if the middleman make a mistake by trusting the scammer, what you can do?

Kelward

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Quote from: Obari on August 09, 2023, 01:38:36 AM

Quote from: Kelward on August 07, 2023, 03:09:44 PM

Exactly mate I agree absolutely with you and no matter how we paint it, the middle men which are the exchanges are in one way or the other inevitable and I've always seen several threads preaching against exchanges and after closer observations, I noticed that what they reay preach against is storing on those exchanges and not trading on them.
Over the years, exchanges have made transacting with bitcoin and cryptocurrencies in general much more easier and even more secure through their escrow services and at the end, crypto is traded for fiat in cases where bitcoin isn't accepted and one of the safest way to do this is through P2P on exchanges.

[/quote]

The concept of the middle man is an interesting topic in the study of economics, because of the argument about their relevance in business transactions. Some sees them as blessings, important intermediaries that makes transactions easy and convenient, while others sees than as an unavoidable evil, that you call to interferer, they reap and grow fat from other people's business dealings. Anyhow you look at it, whether you like them or not, they perform the important tasks of exchanges.

Because bitcoin P2P transactions are not one hundred percent reliable, especially when you're transacting with people that you don't know, using trusted exchanges becomes important because they guarantee peace of mind that most probably you won't be scammed.

Yamane_Keto

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I watched an educational video about how the current payment system works, whether it was Visa or transfers between different banks and different countries. The reality of the current financial system is very complex, and if payments are made directly, what happens in the background is that your banking data is shared between many banking entities or even Google Play and Apple Pay.

Bitcoin transactions provide the user with smooth and speedy transfers with some privacy if he knows how to hide his data well. Users resort to third parties, either because of the support of sufficient adoption, such as using Visa cards that can be loaded with Bitcoin and pay anywhere Visa is accepted, or because of the delay in transactions by an amount Average over 10 minutes.
Both of them, with time and development, will be considered causes of the past.

image sources

https://www.fintechtris.com/blog/infusing-blockchain-into-banking
https://twitter.com/RR2Capital/status/1672869233125105665

mv1986

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Quote from: panganib999 on August 11, 2023, 06:11:51 PM

The point of crypto is to cut the middle man and make it so you have full agency over your finances. Although I get where you're coming from especially with the ever-growing number of scammers in the industry. At the end of the day it's not as if it's compulsory, but you gotta understand that the choice of exercising your power over your money comes with its caveats, which these intermediaries solve by making sure that when push comes to shove, the ones truly at fault will receive the sanction. This happens in regular P2P, I've had experiences where some people refrained from sending me my money, or have gone so far as to scam me by sending fake receipts. Binance catches wind of this and immediately resolves the transaction without me getting scammed. It's all about what matters the most to you really when you're transacting. Are you more worried about your identity? If so then go off grid and find a non-custodial conversion method. But if you're like 99% of the industry and you want to stay safe when you're transacting, then a little compromise in the name of security wouldn't be that much.

Not really much to add to that, well summed up. The only thing I would add is that I think it is more a question of "when" than "if" we are approaching perfection when it comes to p2p transactions where any implied middleman role approaches zero importance. If you take a service like Bisq.network, it is pretty good already, but the question is how scalable these applications are when you are running a business with a thousand clients and are sometimes dependent on arbitration regardless of the incentives that should make both parties stick to the agreement. There is still some friction here and there, but I am optimistic that the friction will be so negligible very soon that third party roles can be decentralized and automated.

But as soon as there are transactions in and out of crypto involved, like exchanging Bitcoin for fiat, foul play is still possible if the party that wants to play foul is willing to take a penalty while achieving nothing else but both parties losing when both parties would be better off if the contract is adhered to. Those problems, as far as I know, are still not fully solved.

panganib999

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The point of crypto is to cut the middle man and make it so you have full agency over your finances. Although I get where you're coming from especially with the ever-growing number of scammers in the industry. At the end of the day it's not as if it's compulsory, but you gotta understand that the choice of exercising your power over your money comes with its caveats, which these intermediaries solve by making sure that when push comes to shove, the ones truly at fault will receive the sanction. This happens in regular P2P, I've had experiences where some people refrained from sending me my money, or have gone so far as to scam me by sending fake receipts. Binance catches wind of this and immediately resolves the transaction without me getting scammed. It's all about what matters the most to you really when you're transacting. Are you more worried about your identity? If so then go off grid and find a non-custodial conversion method. But if you're like 99% of the industry and you want to stay safe when you're transacting, then a little compromise in the name of security wouldn't be that much.

Wimex

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Quote from: Aanuoluwatofunmi on August 07, 2023, 03:49:35 PM

Quote from: Kelward on August 07, 2023, 03:09:44 PM

I believe that most business owners will prefer to transact money transfers with their customers directly without using an exchange, that will be a third party, and you'll have to pay this third party or middle man money for his services, whether you like it or not.

In cryptocurrency, we have many ways to safely resist ay third party influence in what we do as long as we have the knowledge on how to go about it, bitcoin is not what we can just assume to be thesame as the way we treat other cryptocurrencies which are centralized, using bitcoin privately begin with the kind of wallet we use, many people will create a crypto account and take that as wallet from the exchanges they use, while some will rely on other people in helping them through what they would have learnt to know by themselves.

I think that for a person who uses bitcoin the best thing to do is to make these exchanges by himself, without the need for help from a third party, because I consider that this would be a bit counterproductive for said individual. It is true that these platforms provide very striking features, but there is no way to avoid this type of method, for the simple fact that it might not be as safe as you think, although I am also clear that if you are not knowledgeable or skilled in doing it on your own, You could choose this other option yourself, that is, it could be taken as plan B. In any case, they are not bad, and as all services of this type have their risk, so it is best to use something with which you feel comfortable, and Of course, they have a decent reputation to avoid bad times, without lowering their guard, since a failure can exist at any moment... so, in conclusion, the use of an intermediary is based on choice and how the person feels with said platform.

bayu7adi

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dont be greedy

I've come to realize that third-party dominance in the realm of finance is remarkably pronounced. Even up to the present moment, many folks continue to engage with third-party services due to their stellar reputation, a factor that significantly impacts trust.

Executing true peer-to-peer transactions faces challenges, given the persistent presence of prominent companies with high repute and a large user base. Modern individuals consistently seek seamless service, and this very desire propels companies to emerge as centralized platforms catering to the masses. It's an inevitability we can't escape.

Gyfts

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Bitcoin isn't supposed to eliminate a middle man entirely. It seems as if you're obfuscating centralization and the idea of a middle man. There's some overlap, but they aren't the same. Centralization forces there to be an intermediary between a sender and receiver. If you're dealing with fiat, that intermediary is technically the government even though you don't really think about them being involved in P2P transactions. When you pay someone with fiat, the government is endorsing the value of the funds, therefore they are integral to the transaction. Using payment processors or exchanges are just adding additional factors. Bitcoin eliminates the centralization portion entirely, and it becomes the buyer and sellers discretion to add safeguarding factors to their transactions (exchanges, escrows, middle man, etc.)

I'd note that an exchange isn't a safeguard but to someone who believes they can't hold their own private keys for whatever reason, that avenue exists.

d5000

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Quote from: Husires on August 11, 2023, 04:22:00 AM

Quote from: d5000 on August 11, 2023, 03:46:42 AM

4. no middleman at all - P2P exchanges without human escrow, e.g. atomic swaps or Ethereum token exchanges, person-to-person exchange, and some exotic ways like the exchange of hard disk space to crypto (via platforms like Sia), and of course the exchange of goods/services for crypto directly.

I think you are confusing here between a middleman and trust in a third party. All transfers that take place here are P2P, but there is trust in a third party.

I honestly don't see any difference between a "middleman" and a "trusted third party". The trusted third party in the different exchange models has control over some processes, the further "down" in my list, the less processes they manage. So they're a "middleman" in some part of the process. However, in the P2P/multisig escrow model, the middleman only has control if one of the parties involved in the trade isn't satisfied with the result, so if both parties are satisfied, the middleman isn't necessary and doesn't have any control. That's because often the "P2P exchange with human intervention" is a quite good compromise between "no middleman at all" and "a middleman managing too many processes".

Quote from: Husires on August 11, 2023, 04:22:00 AM

So far, there is no real decentralized exchange between different blockchains, so we need to trust a third party.

That's not true imo. Atomic swaps are trustless. The only way to break them is malware or 51% attacks. The problem is that they have some optionality, so they can lead to situations where one party has to pay a fee and loses control over their coins for a short period without the exchange taking place. Atomic Swap options are a way to deal with that, with one party paying a fee.

Tony116

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Quote from: inthelongrun on August 11, 2023, 04:27:13 AM

Quote from: Tony116 on August 10, 2023, 08:27:10 AM

Quote from: inthelongrun on August 10, 2023, 07:31:54 AM

Before, people dreamed of a financial system free from government and commercial grips. Now that bitcoin and crypto exist, these middlemen still exist. Because it is always easier said than done. I don't mind paying fees from these middlemen as long as my transactions are guaranteed secure.

Binance is becoming a giant company worth billions nowadays. I know there are a lot of haters on Binance but on the positive side, I am thankful for its peer-to-peer feature which is actually free. I can say that I saved thousands of dollars already otherwise me and my countrymen that are into crypto continued to pay 3% to 5% fees during cash-ins and cashouts.

I still don't understand your problem, why do you pay a fee of 3% to 5% every time you convert your bitcoins to cash? In addition to using P2P on binance, you can also trade P2P with trusted sellers you know. Or you can also use middleman and escrow, I don't think it will cost as much transaction fee as you are mentioning. I don't know if the transaction fee varies from region to region, but in my place, the transaction fee for the middleman is quite cheap. But using Binance is not bad, people hate it because they feel their privacy is violated.

3% to 5% is the usual gap in our local exchanges here compared to the real bitcoin price in the open market. Prior to Binance and other exchanges' p2p, we do not have many options to buy bitcoin and to cashout it out to our local currency. Meets-ups are a little popular as well to save some bucks but that didn't interest me. Huge trades are also happening in our biggest hotel casinos in the capital city but that's a plane away from me and even if it saves me a few thousand dollars I am also not interested in revealing myself.

At present, I do not have many updates as I am mostly on Binance. There are already trading exchanges but I heard the spreads are still around 1% to 3% which is still big if you're buying or selling significant amounts.

Many are also not fond of Binance due to its KYC but that's also far from our local exchanges here that keep on asking for documents like 2 to 3 times a year.

If what you say is true, for small investors like us, the fee from 3% to 5% is really quite a high fee and if in your situation, I will do the same as you. Making money these days is not easy and we cannot afford to lose that hard earned money, although many will criticize you and me for using Binance to avoid those high fees. But if they were in your situation, I believe they would do the same.
But in the future, you may find a better solution with cheaper fees than centralized exchanges and it's safe for you, I think you should also try with it to protect your privacy as well as your property.

inthelongrun

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Quote from: Tony116 on August 10, 2023, 08:27:10 AM

Quote from: inthelongrun on August 10, 2023, 07:31:54 AM

Before, people dreamed of a financial system free from government and commercial grips. Now that bitcoin and crypto exist, these middlemen still exist. Because it is always easier said than done. I don't mind paying fees from these middlemen as long as my transactions are guaranteed secure.

Binance is becoming a giant company worth billions nowadays. I know there are a lot of haters on Binance but on the positive side, I am thankful for its peer-to-peer feature which is actually free. I can say that I saved thousands of dollars already otherwise me and my countrymen that are into crypto continued to pay 3% to 5% fees during cash-ins and cashouts.

I still don't understand your problem, why do you pay a fee of 3% to 5% every time you convert your bitcoins to cash? In addition to using P2P on binance, you can also trade P2P with trusted sellers you know. Or you can also use middleman and escrow, I don't think it will cost as much transaction fee as you are mentioning. I don't know if the transaction fee varies from region to region, but in my place, the transaction fee for the middleman is quite cheap. But using Binance is not bad, people hate it because they feel their privacy is violated.

3% to 5% is the usual gap in our local exchanges here compared to the real bitcoin price in the open market. Prior to Binance and other exchanges' p2p, we do not have many options to buy bitcoin and to cashout it out to our local currency. Meets-ups are a little popular as well to save some bucks but that didn't interest me. Huge trades are also happening in our biggest hotel casinos in the capital city but that's a plane away from me and even if it saves me a few thousand dollars I am also not interested in revealing myself.

At present, I do not have many updates as I am mostly on Binance. There are already trading exchanges but I heard the spreads are still around 1% to 3% which is still big if you're buying or selling significant amounts.

Many are also not fond of Binance due to its KYC but that's also far from our local exchanges here that keep on asking for documents like 2 to 3 times a year.

Husires

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It is the main reason for creating Bitcoin. You do not need to trust a third party to exchange your money on your behalf, as this party must have full access to your account and exchange coins on your behalf. This trust is protected by government laws, but this does not prevent the misuse of these banks for deposits. Customers, which is exactly what happens in centralized exchanges, where the more money they get without regulatory oversight, the higher the chance of misuse.

Quote from: d5000 on August 11, 2023, 03:46:42 AM

1. a middleman who manages everything (your money and your exchange processes) - your centralized exchange-wallet of choice,
2. a middleman who manages only the exchange process - instant exchanges
3. a middleman who only manages the single most problematic thing: dispute management - P2P exchanges with human escrow, escrow services
4. no middleman at all - P2P exchanges without human escrow, e.g. atomic swaps or Ethereum token exchanges, person-to-person exchange, and some exotic ways like the exchange of hard disk space to crypto (via platforms like Sia), and of course the exchange of goods/services for crypto directly.

I think you are confusing here between a middleman and trust in a third party. All transfers that take place here are P2P, but there is trust in a third party.
So far, there is no real decentralized exchange between different blockchains, so we need to trust a third party.

d5000

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Disagree with the OP. The good thing about crypto is that you have got a lot of choices!

You can have:

1. a middleman who manages everything (your money and your exchange processes) - your centralized exchange-wallet of choice,
2. a middleman who manages only the exchange process - instant exchanges
3. a middleman who only manages the single most problematic thing: dispute management - P2P exchanges with human escrow, escrow services
4. no middleman at all - P2P exchanges without human escrow, e.g. atomic swaps or Ethereum token exchanges, person-to-person exchange, and some exotic ways like the exchange of hard disk space to crypto (via platforms like Sia), and of course the exchange of goods/services for crypto directly.

I think the experiences from the last year (FTX et al.) and concerns about privacy are driving slowly all users gradually down that "ladder". Most will however stop at 2 or 3, as option 4 is often a bit technical or impractical in the case of person-to-person exchange. However, goods/services to crypto should also become much bigger than now once volatility decreases further. Just now we're quite on a good path to that.

dothebeats

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Quote from: jeraldskie11 on August 10, 2023, 06:53:27 PM

If we could only trust someone we don't see, then it's good to transact with them. But the reality is that there are many bad people out there. So if ever there's an opportunity to do bad things, they will usually do it especially when we talk about money. That's why transactions with no middleman is not a guarantee, there are lots of cases of hacking in P2P since you can't determine the identity of the person you are trading with. Since we are talking about crypto and we don't know who's really the person we are trading with, service fee of an intermediary is not a waste.

I agree, it is better to pay someone to guarantee safety rather than lose all of that money by getting scammed. I mean what's a small rate compared to the whole sum you are hoping to use for the transaction? Personally, I don't mind paying the rate of a middleman that will secure my transaction, I view it as a service fee for every transaction I do.

romero121

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While cashing out as well as while we involve into trading activities there is a need for exchange. Another thing when a person is new to the cryptomarket, they feel more confident when they've got a support team to raise queries. For people who have been using cryptocurrency for longer time period this isn't a big issue. They'll easily skip the middle man as they've used to Cashout with traders based on trust and for such things to happen with the new ones it takes time. As the title states usage of exchanges were unavailable to some extent.

jeraldskie11

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If we could only trust someone we don't see, then it's good to transact with them. But the reality is that there are many bad people out there. So if ever there's an opportunity to do bad things, they will usually do it especially when we talk about money. That's why transactions with no middleman is not a guarantee, there are lots of cases of hacking in P2P since you can't determine the identity of the person you are trading with. Since we are talking about crypto and we don't know who's really the person we are trading with, service fee of an intermediary is not a waste.

AmoreJaz

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Quote from: coupable on August 10, 2023, 12:11:13 PM

Quote from: Kelward on August 07, 2023, 03:09:44 PM

You can not eliminate the middle man in businesses, especially in this digital age, be it fiat or cryptocurrencies, because they have come to stay. Big exchanges like Binance, are cashing in on being the middle man in businesses, an unavoidable indirect business associates, in your face, waiting for you to go through them.

No they didn't have come to stay. It's just a matter of time until we get rid of them all.
This is simply because the existence of these third parties is mainly related to the fact that exchanges are made with fiat money, whose identity cannot be hidden in any way. Peer-to-peer platforms can become completely decentralized if exchanges between users are carried out using crypto only, but users of these platforms are often in countries that do not support cryptocurrencies, so they are looking for local sellers so that they can use their local currencies to complete buying and selling operations. It means that the platform plays the role of the third party.
The problem with this third party is not that it gets a fee for the service, but rather it is the powers that it has, so it is able to possess the users’ private data, and this is what must be done to avoid it. I do not see any harm in the platforms providing third-party services without having the ability to track user data.

we are going into that route because there are so many scammers on the loose, so we need an assurance that we won't get rekt in those p2p services. hence, the third party platform or escrow is still a must today. otherwise, you need to be careful in dealing with p2p platforms as you can easily get scammed without the possibility of getting back your funds.

justdimin

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Quote from: davis196 on August 10, 2023, 05:30:50 AM

I definitely can't agree that you can't avoid middleman services in the digital age.
You don't need a middleman in the world of crypto, if you have knowledge about crypto and you know what you are doing.
Escrow services and multi-sig wallets are a thing in the crypto world. You don't necessarily need a centralized crypto exchange to serve as a middleman in your transactions. In fact, many crypto scams are done by centralized crypto exchange platforms.
Of course, many crypto noobs are going to use a middleman, because this gives them a false sense of security(and greater convenience).
The same thing applies to the fiat banking world. Many people think that using a bank will keep them safe from scams and a certain percentage of them usually get scammed by the bank.

There are people who just use bitcoin in a "send fiat from bank account to exchange account, trade, then send fiat from exchange account to bank account" and that's all they do. This is why they do not see the chances that they could use it without any centralized platform. I understand that we all know how that can be done, but they do not, and that's their problem.

Unfortunately this has to be something to look for if you want to get the full benefit of bitcoin but they do not. This is why they do not know what you know and they do not agree with you. According to them, there is no way you could avoid middleman, because they do not know how you could avoid it, and they use it in a sense that it would be impossible to do that.

Topic: No choice but to use the unavoidable middle man, the exchange companies. - page 4. (Read 869 times)