No choice but to use the unavoidable middle man, the exchange companies. - page 5.

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Quote from: Kelward on August 07, 2023, 03:09:44 PM

You can not eliminate the middle man in businesses, especially in this digital age, be it fiat or cryptocurrencies, because they have come to stay. Big exchanges like Binance, are cashing in on being the middle man in businesses, an unavoidable indirect business associates, in your face, waiting for you to go through them.

No they didn't have come to stay. It's just a matter of time until we get rid of them all.
This is simply because the existence of these third parties is mainly related to the fact that exchanges are made with fiat money, whose identity cannot be hidden in any way. Peer-to-peer platforms can become completely decentralized if exchanges between users are carried out using crypto only, but users of these platforms are often in countries that do not support cryptocurrencies, so they are looking for local sellers so that they can use their local currencies to complete buying and selling operations. It means that the platform plays the role of the third party.
The problem with this third party is not that it gets a fee for the service, but rather it is the powers that it has, so it is able to possess the users’ private data, and this is what must be done to avoid it. I do not see any harm in the platforms providing third-party services without having the ability to track user data.

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For money transactions directly with clients, you must pay a fee to the bank when transferring money. It may not be immediately requested at the time of transfer but at the end of the month, and all transactions are recorded. So we still need a third party to handle the transaction.

And this is also the same as what we do in crypto, where we also pay the fee to the exchange or the seller who will send the money to us. Unless you meet the seller in person and hand over the money to you, you will not pay any fees because you are holding the money and not going through a transfer.

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Quote from: inthelongrun on August 10, 2023, 07:31:54 AM

Before, people dreamed of a financial system free from government and commercial grips. Now that bitcoin and crypto exist, these middlemen still exist. Because it is always easier said than done. I don't mind paying fees from these middlemen as long as my transactions are guaranteed secure.

Binance is becoming a giant company worth billions nowadays. I know there are a lot of haters on Binance but on the positive side, I am thankful for its peer-to-peer feature which is actually free. I can say that I saved thousands of dollars already otherwise me and my countrymen that are into crypto continued to pay 3% to 5% fees during cash-ins and cashouts.

I still don't understand your problem, why do you pay a fee of 3% to 5% every time you convert your bitcoins to cash? In addition to using P2P on binance, you can also trade P2P with trusted sellers you know. Or you can also use middleman and escrow, I don't think it will cost as much transaction fee as you are mentioning. I don't know if the transaction fee varies from region to region, but in my place, the transaction fee for the middleman is quite cheap. But using Binance is not bad, people hate it because they feel their privacy is violated.

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Before, people dreamed of a financial system free from government and commercial grips. Now that bitcoin and crypto exist, these middlemen still exist. Because it is always easier said than done. I don't mind paying fees from these middlemen as long as my transactions are guaranteed secure.

Binance is becoming a giant company worth billions nowadays. I know there are a lot of haters on Binance but on the positive side, I am thankful for its peer-to-peer feature which is actually free. I can say that I saved thousands of dollars already otherwise me and my countrymen that are into crypto continued to pay 3% to 5% fees during cash-ins and cashouts.

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Quote

One of the reasons why I like bitcoin is that it's decentralized, and you can do a P2P transaction with another bitcoin holder without any exchange being involved. But for convenience, transparency and scams that are associated with P2P, you don't have much choice but to patronize the services of these exchanges.

You can not eliminate the middle man in businesses, especially in this digital age, be it fiat or cryptocurrencies, because they have come to stay. Big exchanges like Binance, are cashing in on being the middle man in businesses, an unavoidable indirect business associates, in your face, waiting for you to go through them.

I definitely can't agree that you can't avoid middleman services in the digital age.
You don't need a middleman in the world of crypto, if you have knowledge about crypto and you know what you are doing.
Escrow services and multi-sig wallets are a thing in the crypto world. You don't necessarily need a centralized crypto exchange to serve as a middleman in your transactions. In fact, many crypto scams are done by centralized crypto exchange platforms.
Of course, many crypto noobs are going to use a middleman, because this gives them a false sense of security(and greater convenience).
The same thing applies to the fiat banking world. Many people think that using a bank will keep them safe from scams and a certain percentage of them usually get scammed by the bank.

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its not just exchanges.. even bitcoin devs are trying to push for a system where bitcoin is a reserve network for businesses/services to settle their reserves periodically and people are suppose to now use subnetwork bridges involving routing middlemen for their daily spends. yep routing that requires pass-the-parcel of reserve borrowing to hop along subnetworks paying a fee per hop

lets fight against the corporate agenda of holding bitcoin onchain development hostage where they want to offer middlemen services as a convenient alternative to the hostile stagnation of bitcoin onchain development

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Quote from: Alpha Marine on August 09, 2023, 11:04:16 AM

If and when Bitcoin becomes as popular as you say, exchanges will be like the banks of today.

LoL, you think so? And why do you think CEX would be like a bank by then? What makes you not think that there might be something that's cooking underground already towards creating a large DEX platform in the future, where anyone around the world can be able to buy and sell Bitcoin with several payment options and great liquidity? Like I still said, by then, the majority of people that will be using CEX will be doing so for the sake of trading. In any case, it's still my assumption, and it might not happen that way. But look at some banks that folded just this year; don't you think the same will apply for some CEX in the future and can lead to Crypto enthusiasts running away from using CEX?

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Quote from: Kelward on August 07, 2023, 03:09:44 PM

I believe that most business owners will prefer to transact money transfers with their customers directly without using an exchange, that will be a third party, and you'll have to pay this third party or middle man money for his services, whether you like it or not. I also believe that nothing beats transacting money directly with your clients or customers, no third party whatsoever. One of the reasons why I like bitcoin is that it's decentralized, and you can do a P2P transaction with another bitcoin holder without any exchange being involved. But for convenience, transparency and scams that are associated with P2P, you don't have much choice but to patronize the services of these exchanges.

You can not eliminate the middle man in businesses, especially in this digital age, be it fiat or cryptocurrencies, because they have come to stay. Big exchanges like Binance, are cashing in on being the middle man in businesses, an unavoidable indirect business associates, in your face, waiting for you to go through them.

I don't even get all the hate that is directed at exchanges by certain members of the forum. While understanding that people should keep custody of their own coins and that many exchanges have "gone rogue" in the past to steal customer funds, they have still brought a lot of good to the scene. Many people simply don't have the technical inclination to set up a wallet on a personal device and would prefer that aspect were handled by another company, as long as they're aware of the risks it makes no difference to them where the coins are stored. If they have larger amounts then potentially diversifying between exchanges is wider because you're at less risk of all of them going wrong.

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Quote from: Peanutswar on August 09, 2023, 09:47:21 AM

Companies and businesses use a third party for efficiency and less hassle on their part, if you have a budget why not buy or use a service so you can work efficiently, for example with here is the salary, they are using third party banks so they can distribute those salaries to their employees account and does not need to wait for a whole day just to give them a paycheck, another is the system use of their company, instead, they are using a file cabinet system, they use a system related into their task so they have the safe data in their database.
In cryptocurrency the use of it is for the decentralized but most of the people using the exchange or other centralized platform because being comvinent to them.

When you transfer cryptocurrency from wallet to wallet, on the one hand, it is convenient, but on the other hand - when transferring, you can make a mistake, the recipient may suddenly disappear and not understand what was agreed upon. This is why intermediaries - exchanges - are involved. Here there is at least some kind of guarantee.

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Quote from: Dr.Bitcoin_Strange on August 07, 2023, 06:20:21 PM

No, I really don't think they have come to stay because this is still early days for Bitcoin and cryptocurrency technology. By the time Bitcoin has really dominated across a whole lot of countries in the world, and if by then a great deal of people in the world are using Bitcoin, then you can even easily sell or buy Bitcoin on the street. You know that fiat currencies have really been in existence for quite a long time now compared to Bitcoin that is just 14 years, so by the time Bitcoin has been around for a very long time too and has been adopted by many people, it will be easy, and most of the exchanges you are talking about will even go out of business because people will not really be dependent on them unless for just future trading and other sorts of trading features. Even by then, there might also have been a real P2P DEX where there would be great liquidity and every transaction would go smoothly.

I think it's the other way round. The more Bitcoin becomes popular, the more exchanges become popular. People will always use a crypto exchange.
Even if there was a means that people would hold their Fiat currencies in decentralized bank accounts, people will still use the usual banking system. There is always an option, but a lot of people prefer a third party to hold money for them.
If and when Bitcoin becomes as popular as you say, exchanges will be like the banks of today.

Look at how things are today. People know that they can transact without centralized exchanges but they still prefer to use exchanges.

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Quote from: Kelward on August 07, 2023, 03:09:44 PM

You can not eliminate the middle man in businesses, especially in this digital age, be it fiat or cryptocurrencies, because they have come to stay. Big exchanges like Binance, are cashing in on being the middle man in businesses, an unavoidable indirect business associates, in your face, waiting for you to go through them.

Some of these exchanges require our personal information before we can evaluate them, implying that we do not care about our privacy just because we want a middleman service, which is contrary to how I believe bitcoin functions.

When looking for quick ways to transact with bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies, we turn to exchanges. However, if we can invest the time to learn about privacy and how important it is, we will be forced to adopt peer-to-peer transactions regardless of the risk.

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Quote from: Kelward on August 07, 2023, 03:09:44 PM

I believe that most business owners will prefer to transact money transfers with their customers directly without using an exchange, that will be a third party, and you'll have to pay this third party or middle man money for his services, whether you like it or not. I also believe that nothing beats transacting money directly with your clients or customers, no third party whatsoever. One of the reasons why I like bitcoin is that it's decentralized, and you can do a P2P transaction with another bitcoin holder without any exchange being involved. But for convenience, transparency and scams that are associated with P2P, you don't have much choice but to patronize the services of these exchanges.

You can not eliminate the middle man in businesses, especially in this digital age, be it fiat or cryptocurrencies, because they have come to stay. Big exchanges like Binance, are cashing in on being the middle man in businesses, an unavoidable indirect business associates, in your face, waiting for you to go through them.

Companies and businesses use a third party for efficiency and less hassle on their part, if you have a budget why not buy or use a service so you can work efficiently, for example with here is the salary, they are using third party banks so they can distribute those salaries to their employees account and does not need to wait for a whole day just to give them a paycheck, another is the system use of their company, instead, they are using a file cabinet system, they use a system related into their task so they have the safe data in their database.
In cryptocurrency the use of it is for the decentralized but most of the people using the exchange or other centralized platform because being comvinent to them.

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I think that exchanges simply play a different role and thus are very likely to stay. A person can send BTC from one address to another, and there's zero need for an exchange in that situation. But if you're a trader, you need an exchange, and centralized exchanges might be convenient for that. If you want to buy or sell BTC for fiat, that also often requires an exchange, although it doesn't have to be a place like Binance where they store your money. I, for one, usually use local exchanges where you, for example, send BTC to a certain address from your wallet and get a transfer onto a bank account, so nobody is storing anyone else's funds in this situation.
Also, if we're talking about active use of Bitcoin for payments, a custodial wallet can be more convenient if it's widely used because that allows 'instant payments' and very low fees.
I think it should just be accepted that there are some use cases for intermediaries, and that they are not going to disappear.

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I think you get it wrong, if a customer want to transfer bitcoin or any crypto to the service provider they don't need a middle-man they can directly transfer it from personal wallet to other personal wallet. The thing that needs an exchange is when the service provider need to cash out their exchange onto a fiat money.

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Quote from: Kelward on August 07, 2023, 03:09:44 PM

But for convenience, transparency and scams that are associated with P2P, you don't have much choice but to patronize the services of these exchanges.

Well, by using a self-hosted payment processor businesses rather able to gain more complete transparency, not the contrary. In terms of scams, I don't know what you truly mean by that, but I'm pretty there is nothing to worry about by not using third-party payment processors.

Quote from: Kelward on August 07, 2023, 03:09:44 PM

You can not eliminate the middle man in businesses, especially in this digital age, be it fiat or cryptocurrencies, because they have come to stay. Big exchanges like Binance, are cashing in on being the middle man in businesses, an unavoidable indirect business associates, in your face, waiting for you to go through them.

I'm sure you are completely wrong since it does avoidable. If businesses want to accept the Bitcoin payment option, they can use BTCPay Server and any related self-hostable payment processor for other cryptocurrencies. It truly depends on the business choices, and certainly those centralized exchanges or third-party is not a gatekeeper for a business to forcingly require them to use their services.

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Quote from: Kelward on August 07, 2023, 03:09:44 PM

You can not eliminate the middle man in businesses, especially in this digital age, be it fiat or cryptocurrencies, because they have come to stay. Big exchanges like Binance, are cashing in on being the middle man in businesses, an unavoidable indirect business associates, in your face, waiting for you to go through them.

I score very low on my level of trust for people generally but in business or any type of financial transactions best believe I don't trust the other party even if the person were my sibling. This level of mistrust for others came about as a result of a bad experience. I like that big exchanges like Binance and Kucoin are involved as middleman in the peer to peer transactions that take place on their platforms. I have had so many issues with other traders and transactions resolved quickly which otherwise would not have if there were no middleman.

In other non crypto businesses, some encourage middlemen because they are one of the fastest and best ways to market and sell your products or attract clients who require your services.

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Quote from: Kelward on August 07, 2023, 03:09:44 PM

I believe that most business owners will prefer to transact money transfers with their customers directly without using an exchange, that will be a third party, and you'll have to pay this third party or middle man money for his services, whether you like it or not.

Yup, this is true and that's why many business owners are cutting their ties with their third parties that process their payments which mostly are the banks or credit card companies. Because the fees that they charge to the customers and mostly to the business owners are outrageous.

Quote from: Kelward on August 07, 2023, 03:09:44 PM

I also believe that nothing beats transacting money directly with your clients or customers, no third party whatsoever. One of the reasons why I like bitcoin is that it's decentralized, and you can do a P2P transaction with another bitcoin holder without any exchange being involved. But for convenience, transparency and scams that are associated with P2P, you don't have much choice but to patronize the services of these exchanges.

You can not eliminate the middle man in businesses, especially in this digital age, be it fiat or cryptocurrencies, because they have come to stay. Big exchanges like Binance, are cashing in on being the middle man in businesses, an unavoidable indirect business associates, in your face, waiting for you to go through them.

That's true because even if you remove those third parties and you want to accept bitcoin for payments. You'll still need to exchange that somewhere and it could be on exchanges, another third party company like Bitpay and others.

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Quote from: Kelward on August 07, 2023, 03:09:44 PM

You can not eliminate the middle man in businesses, especially in this digital age, be it fiat or cryptocurrencies, because they have come to stay. Big exchanges like Binance, are cashing in on being the middle man in businesses, an unavoidable indirect business associates, in your face, waiting for you to go through them.

Yes, you can eliminate the middleman because they are not really necessary unless you don't believe the other part completely. But cryptocurrencies also came up with the idea of how to eliminate those middlemen that are centralized with the idea of bringing smart contracts into the play.

If you are not aware of what the smart contract is then it is a self-executing contract based on the terms you agreed to trade so when the conditions are met the trades will be executed which means no middlemen and your argument of middlemen is necessary whether it is centralized or decentralized.

But, if we take this into consideration how it will work if we replace it with an entire traditional banking system cause it is yet to be explored while I am presenting you with the facts it is possible,

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Quote from: Kelward on August 07, 2023, 03:09:44 PM

I believe that most business owners will prefer to transact money transfers with their customers directly without using an exchange, that will be a third party, and you'll have to pay this third party or middle man money for his services, whether you like it or not.

There's a regulation where the business owners are forced to transfer the wages via bank, it's mean you don't have any choice regardless you like it or not. There's no charge if the business owner and the employee are using a same bank, usually the employee get asked to create a bank account that the business is use too.

Actually, when you send your Bitcoin to other address you need to pay the fee to be included on the block, it's mean the reality is completely opposite with your imagination.

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Quote from: Captain Corporate on August 08, 2023, 03:29:14 PM

I feel like this isn't as bad as people make it out to be. First of all I could definitely do p2p if I want to, secondly the most important part is that you do not need exchanges when you are transacting with each other as well. Lets say that you are selling some apples, I pay you bitcoin and you give me apples and we go our separate ways, there was nobody in the middle. But if we are using fiat, in that case if we are doing credit card then there is tax and also banks that get a share, if we are using cash, we can still pay taxes, so in the end there is always a risk of someone else being in the middle, any credit card payment (which is almost all payments) go through banks, we rarely do not use banks, but with crypto we can at least not use middleman during transactions between each other.

After selling all the apples, how will the seller buy another apple? The apple producer might not accept cryptocurrency for payments. So the apple seller will have to exchange the crypto for fiat in exchange to make payments.

Some business owners will argue that using exchanges is convenient because it has high liquidity. Most of these businesses need to convert cryptocurrencies to fiat immediately to make purchases so exchanges will always be the best option. Middlemen can be reduced to a large extent if all parties in a transaction accept cryptocurrency. But we should also consider the risk associated with using them. My only advice is not to keep large sums in exchanges.

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