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Topic: "No Reserve" explanation - page 4. (Read 9028 times)

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
December 28, 2011, 11:47:27 PM
#84
If someone put in a long position for 10K BTC at $3.50 and Bitcoinica bought 10K BTC at $3.50, as long as no one is putting in a short position to counter that they will not sell the 10K BTC that they purchased. The reason they were liquid before is because lots of people were taking up contrary positions, but if everyone starts going the other way then they would stop allowing people to go long until/unless they get more actual USD with which to buy additional BTC.

Now, that doesn't explain why someone who took a short couldn't liquidate at a loss, which is the more confusing/problematic issue at hand. If Bitcoinica is out of USD because everyone goes long and I come along and put in a short at $4.30 or whatever, then if I chose to liquidate that short at a loss right after taking the position there's no reason to not allow that.

If you liquidate your short position, you are still buying. It's the same as opening a long position.

Practically, this is a problem, and I don't really know how real world brokerages resolve this problem. I only know that some forex brokers actually trade against their clients.

This is the real issue, and has unfortunately been drowned out by cypherdoc.  I believe it solution is to treat a short position like you are treating a long position.... You won't sell the bitcoins out from under the longs, don't sell the USD out from under the shorts.  They are effectively holding dollars, and you sold their dollars.

he will have to if the price keeps rising.
sr. member
Activity: 446
Merit: 250
December 28, 2011, 11:46:27 PM
#83

If someone put in a long position for 10K BTC at $3.50 and Bitcoinica bought 10K BTC at $3.50, as long as no one is putting in a short position to counter that they will not sell the 10K BTC that they purchased. The reason they were liquid before is because lots of people were taking up contrary positions, but if everyone starts going the other way then they would stop allowing people to go long until/unless they get more actual USD with which to buy additional BTC.

Now, that doesn't explain why someone who took a short couldn't liquidate at a loss, which is the more confusing/problematic issue at hand. If Bitcoinica is out of USD because everyone goes long and I come along and put in a short at $4.30 or whatever, then if I chose to liquidate that short at a loss right after taking the position there's no reason to not allow that.

If you liquidate your short position, you are still buying. It's the same as opening a long position.

Practically, this is a problem, and I don't really know how real world brokerages resolve this problem. I only know that some forex brokers actually trade against their clients.
I'm pretty sure that real world brokerages have access to really quick short term loans.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
December 28, 2011, 11:44:17 PM
#82
If someone put in a long position for 10K BTC at $3.50 and Bitcoinica bought 10K BTC at $3.50, as long as no one is putting in a short position to counter that they will not sell the 10K BTC that they purchased. The reason they were liquid before is because lots of people were taking up contrary positions, but if everyone starts going the other way then they would stop allowing people to go long until/unless they get more actual USD with which to buy additional BTC.

Now, that doesn't explain why someone who took a short couldn't liquidate at a loss, which is the more confusing/problematic issue at hand. If Bitcoinica is out of USD because everyone goes long and I come along and put in a short at $4.30 or whatever, then if I chose to liquidate that short at a loss right after taking the position there's no reason to not allow that.

If you liquidate your short position, you are still buying. It's the same as opening a long position.

Practically, this is a problem, and I don't really know how real world brokerages resolve this problem. I only know that some forex brokers actually trade against their clients.

This is the real issue, and has unfortunately been drowned out by cypherdoc.  I believe it solution is to treat a short position like you are treating a long position.... You won't sell the bitcoins out from under the longs, don't sell the USD out from under the shorts.  They are effectively holding dollars, and you sold their dollars.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
December 28, 2011, 11:43:41 PM
#81

When Bitcoinica customers buy Bitcoins, we will hedge on Mt. Gox to buy for them, and they will have positions.
 

i think this is where the problem lies.  when the market goes straight up, the delay btwn when your customers buy and when you hedge on mtgox puts you into a losing position.


We delay the execution of all orders by 1-2 seconds. When the orders are executed, we always have the latest price.

if this were the case, you wouldn't be having reserve problems with btc and you'd let those buys and short cover orders through.  if you had 10,000 in stock you'd always have 10,000 in stock with perfect execution and hedging.  but you don't so there is slippage somewhere that you're telling us.
If someone put in a long position for 10K BTC at $3.50 and Bitcoinica bought 10K BTC at $3.50, as long as no one is putting in a short position to counter that they will not sell the 10K BTC that they purchased. The reason they were liquid before is because lots of people were taking up contrary positions, but if everyone starts going the other way then they would stop allowing people to go long until/unless they get more actual USD with which to buy additional BTC.

Now, that doesn't explain why someone who took a short couldn't liquidate at a loss, which is the more confusing/problematic issue at hand. If Bitcoinica is out of USD because everyone goes long and I come along and put in a short at $4.30 or whatever, then if I chose to liquidate that short at a loss right after taking the position there's no reason to not allow that.

If you liquidate your short position, you are still buying. It's the same as opening a long position.

Practically, this is a problem, and I don't really know how real world brokerages resolve this problem. I only know that some forex brokers actually trade against their clients.

well at least you admit, Zhou. 

they co-locate onto the exchange to limit slippage.

This has nothing to do with slippage.

We are talking about running out of USD reserves.

and thats a problem in the sense that the shorts can't get out if the price keeps rising.
vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 502
December 28, 2011, 11:42:34 PM
#80

When Bitcoinica customers buy Bitcoins, we will hedge on Mt. Gox to buy for them, and they will have positions.
 

i think this is where the problem lies.  when the market goes straight up, the delay btwn when your customers buy and when you hedge on mtgox puts you into a losing position.


We delay the execution of all orders by 1-2 seconds. When the orders are executed, we always have the latest price.

if this were the case, you wouldn't be having reserve problems with btc and you'd let those buys and short cover orders through.  if you had 10,000 in stock you'd always have 10,000 in stock with perfect execution and hedging.  but you don't so there is slippage somewhere that you're telling us.
If someone put in a long position for 10K BTC at $3.50 and Bitcoinica bought 10K BTC at $3.50, as long as no one is putting in a short position to counter that they will not sell the 10K BTC that they purchased. The reason they were liquid before is because lots of people were taking up contrary positions, but if everyone starts going the other way then they would stop allowing people to go long until/unless they get more actual USD with which to buy additional BTC.

Now, that doesn't explain why someone who took a short couldn't liquidate at a loss, which is the more confusing/problematic issue at hand. If Bitcoinica is out of USD because everyone goes long and I come along and put in a short at $4.30 or whatever, then if I chose to liquidate that short at a loss right after taking the position there's no reason to not allow that.

If you liquidate your short position, you are still buying. It's the same as opening a long position.

Practically, this is a problem, and I don't really know how real world brokerages resolve this problem. I only know that some forex brokers actually trade against their clients.

well at least you admit, Zhou. 

they co-locate onto the exchange to limit slippage.

This has nothing to do with slippage.

We are talking about running out of USD reserves.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
December 28, 2011, 11:40:02 PM
#79

When Bitcoinica customers buy Bitcoins, we will hedge on Mt. Gox to buy for them, and they will have positions.
 

i think this is where the problem lies.  when the market goes straight up, the delay btwn when your customers buy and when you hedge on mtgox puts you into a losing position.


We delay the execution of all orders by 1-2 seconds. When the orders are executed, we always have the latest price.

if this were the case, you wouldn't be having reserve problems with btc and you'd let those buys and short cover orders through.  if you had 10,000 in stock you'd always have 10,000 in stock with perfect execution and hedging.  but you don't so there is slippage somewhere that you're telling us.
If someone put in a long position for 10K BTC at $3.50 and Bitcoinica bought 10K BTC at $3.50, as long as no one is putting in a short position to counter that they will not sell the 10K BTC that they purchased. The reason they were liquid before is because lots of people were taking up contrary positions, but if everyone starts going the other way then they would stop allowing people to go long until/unless they get more actual USD with which to buy additional BTC.

Now, that doesn't explain why someone who took a short couldn't liquidate at a loss, which is the more confusing/problematic issue at hand. If Bitcoinica is out of USD because everyone goes long and I come along and put in a short at $4.30 or whatever, then if I chose to liquidate that short at a loss right after taking the position there's no reason to not allow that.

If you liquidate your short position, you are still buying. It's the same as opening a long position.

Practically, this is a problem, and I don't really know how real world brokerages resolve this problem. I only know that some forex brokers actually trade against their clients.

well at least you admit, Zhou. 

they co-locate onto the exchange to limit slippage.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
December 28, 2011, 11:38:53 PM
#78
but i am observant.  and i see problem after problem after problem.

Emphasis mine.

sure.  you have thousands of bitcoins on hand but you won't sell them or allow ppl to cover b/c you THINK there are too many long positions?  LOL.

Z, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the issue WAS (it's fixed now) that all the BTC were held in long positions.  He can't sell BTC that belong to his users.

Emphasis added.

ok Zhoutong, prove it to me.

OPEN UP ALL BUYING AND SHORT COVERING RIGHT NOW.

Just sayin...
vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 502
December 28, 2011, 11:38:00 PM
#77

When Bitcoinica customers buy Bitcoins, we will hedge on Mt. Gox to buy for them, and they will have positions.
 

i think this is where the problem lies.  when the market goes straight up, the delay btwn when your customers buy and when you hedge on mtgox puts you into a losing position.


We delay the execution of all orders by 1-2 seconds. When the orders are executed, we always have the latest price.

if this were the case, you wouldn't be having reserve problems with btc and you'd let those buys and short cover orders through.  if you had 10,000 in stock you'd always have 10,000 in stock with perfect execution and hedging.  but you don't so there is slippage somewhere that you're telling us.
If someone put in a long position for 10K BTC at $3.50 and Bitcoinica bought 10K BTC at $3.50, as long as no one is putting in a short position to counter that they will not sell the 10K BTC that they purchased. The reason they were liquid before is because lots of people were taking up contrary positions, but if everyone starts going the other way then they would stop allowing people to go long until/unless they get more actual USD with which to buy additional BTC.

Now, that doesn't explain why someone who took a short couldn't liquidate at a loss, which is the more confusing/problematic issue at hand. If Bitcoinica is out of USD because everyone goes long and I come along and put in a short at $4.30 or whatever, then if I chose to liquidate that short at a loss right after taking the position there's no reason to not allow that.

If you liquidate your short position, you are still buying. It's the same as opening a long position.

Practically, this is a problem, and I don't really know how real world brokerages resolve this problem. I only know that some forex brokers actually trade against their clients.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
December 28, 2011, 11:35:27 PM
#76

When Bitcoinica customers buy Bitcoins, we will hedge on Mt. Gox to buy for them, and they will have positions.
 

i think this is where the problem lies.  when the market goes straight up, the delay btwn when your customers buy and when you hedge on mtgox puts you into a losing position.


We delay the execution of all orders by 1-2 seconds. When the orders are executed, we always have the latest price.

if this were the case, you wouldn't be having reserve problems with btc and you'd let those buys and short cover orders through.  if you had 10,000 in stock you'd always have 10,000 in stock with perfect execution and hedging.  but you don't so there is slippage somewhere that you're telling us.

which is precisely why he can't buy any btc on mtgox to hedge sales to you.  if you're trying to cover a short position but can't and the market goes to $8 tomorrow, you'll be liquidated.
hero member
Activity: 482
Merit: 500
December 28, 2011, 11:33:36 PM
#75

When Bitcoinica customers buy Bitcoins, we will hedge on Mt. Gox to buy for them, and they will have positions.
 

i think this is where the problem lies.  when the market goes straight up, the delay btwn when your customers buy and when you hedge on mtgox puts you into a losing position.


We delay the execution of all orders by 1-2 seconds. When the orders are executed, we always have the latest price.

if this were the case, you wouldn't be having reserve problems with btc and you'd let those buys and short cover orders through.  if you had 10,000 in stock you'd always have 10,000 in stock with perfect execution and hedging.  but you don't so there is slippage somewhere that you're telling us.
If someone put in a long position for 10K BTC at $3.50 and Bitcoinica bought 10K BTC at $3.50, as long as no one is putting in a short position to counter that they will not sell the 10K BTC that they purchased. The reason they were liquid before is because lots of people were taking up contrary positions, but if everyone starts going the other way then they would stop allowing people to go long until/unless they get more actual USD with which to buy additional BTC.

Now, that doesn't explain why someone who took a short couldn't liquidate at a loss, which is the more confusing/problematic issue at hand. If Bitcoinica is out of USD because everyone goes long and I come along and put in a short at $4.30 or whatever, then if I chose to liquidate that short at a loss right after taking the position there's no reason to not allow that.
vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 502
December 28, 2011, 11:33:19 PM
#74
ok Zhoutong, prove it to me.

OPEN UP ALL BUYING AND SHORT COVERING RIGHT NOW.

It has been opened for a few hours. Over 13,000 BTC sell orders processed.
vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 502
December 28, 2011, 11:32:46 PM
#73

When Bitcoinica customers buy Bitcoins, we will hedge on Mt. Gox to buy for them, and they will have positions.
 

i think this is where the problem lies.  when the market goes straight up, the delay btwn when your customers buy and when you hedge on mtgox puts you into a losing position.


We delay the execution of all orders by 1-2 seconds. When the orders are executed, we always have the latest price.

if this were the case, you wouldn't be having reserve problems with btc and you'd let those buys and short cover orders through.  if you had 10,000 in stock you'd always have 10,000 in stock with perfect execution and hedging.  but you don't so there is slippage somewhere that you're NOT telling us.

Our customers have leverage, and we don't have. When they buy a lot on margin, we are practically on fractional reserve on USD. When our USD reserve is depleted, we can't fulfill any more requests.

It's the same if we don't have any Bitcoins for people to short sell, we will have to halt selling.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
December 28, 2011, 11:32:17 PM
#72
ok Zhoutong, prove it to me.

OPEN UP ALL BUYING AND SHORT COVERING RIGHT NOW.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
December 28, 2011, 11:31:26 PM
#71

When Bitcoinica customers buy Bitcoins, we will hedge on Mt. Gox to buy for them, and they will have positions.
 

i think this is where the problem lies.  when the market goes straight up, the delay btwn when your customers buy and when you hedge on mtgox puts you into a losing position.


We delay the execution of all orders by 1-2 seconds. When the orders are executed, we always have the latest price.

if this were the case, you wouldn't be having reserve problems with btc and you'd let those buys and short cover orders through.  if you had 10,000 in stock you'd always have 10,000 in stock with perfect execution and hedging.  but you don't so there is slippage somewhere that you're telling us.


He never had BTC reserve problems.  He ran out of USD.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
December 28, 2011, 11:30:16 PM
#70

When Bitcoinica customers buy Bitcoins, we will hedge on Mt. Gox to buy for them, and they will have positions.
 

i think this is where the problem lies.  when the market goes straight up, the delay btwn when your customers buy and when you hedge on mtgox puts you into a losing position.


We delay the execution of all orders by 1-2 seconds. When the orders are executed, we always have the latest price.
Which is why there's that thing called spread... so anyone who thinks Bitcoinica is losing a lot of money by the price going up, I don't think that's the case. They're probably making a ton of money is all, as they take about 1-2% out of every transaction.

if he were, he wouldn't have halted trading.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
December 28, 2011, 11:29:12 PM
#69

When Bitcoinica customers buy Bitcoins, we will hedge on Mt. Gox to buy for them, and they will have positions.
 

i think this is where the problem lies.  when the market goes straight up, the delay btwn when your customers buy and when you hedge on mtgox puts you into a losing position.


We delay the execution of all orders by 1-2 seconds. When the orders are executed, we always have the latest price.

if this were the case, you wouldn't be having reserve problems with btc and you'd let those buys and short cover orders through.  if you had 10,000 in stock you'd always have 10,000 in stock with perfect execution and hedging.  but you don't so there is slippage somewhere that you're NOT telling us.
hero member
Activity: 482
Merit: 500
December 28, 2011, 11:27:48 PM
#68

When Bitcoinica customers buy Bitcoins, we will hedge on Mt. Gox to buy for them, and they will have positions.
 

i think this is where the problem lies.  when the market goes straight up, the delay btwn when your customers buy and when you hedge on mtgox puts you into a losing position.


We delay the execution of all orders by 1-2 seconds. When the orders are executed, we always have the latest price.
Which is why there's that thing called spread... so anyone who thinks Bitcoinica is losing a lot of money by the price going up, I don't think that's the case. They're probably making a ton of money is all, as they take about 1-2% out of every transaction.
vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 502
December 28, 2011, 11:26:20 PM
#67

When Bitcoinica customers buy Bitcoins, we will hedge on Mt. Gox to buy for them, and they will have positions.
 

i think this is where the problem lies.  when the market goes straight up, the delay btwn when your customers buy and when you hedge on mtgox puts you into a losing position.


We delay the execution of all orders by 1-2 seconds. When the orders are executed, we always have the latest price.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
December 28, 2011, 11:24:44 PM
#66

When Bitcoinica customers buy Bitcoins, we will hedge on Mt. Gox to buy for them, and they will have positions.
 

i think this is where the problem lies.  when the market goes straight up, the delay btwn when your customers buy from you and when you hedge on mtgox puts you into a losing position.
vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 502
December 28, 2011, 11:20:44 PM
#65
sure.  you have thousands of bitcoins on hand but you won't sell them or allow ppl to cover b/c you THINK there are too many long positions?  LOL.

Z, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the issue WAS (it's fixed now) that all the BTC were held in long positions.  He can't sell BTC that belong to his users.

It's also correct if you explain like this. All the coins belong to customers, not me.
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