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Topic: No Taxation...Donation! - page 4. (Read 4642 times)

legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
April 26, 2013, 01:26:35 PM
#94
Feel free to build up a night-watch-state like you want somewhere.
But don't force your idea of freedom upon me, please.

If you don't want to be forced upon you an idea, please stop supporting the state, who does force their ideas of freedom on you, and me, and other countries, if it can.  It's either or.  You can't be against force used against you, and in favor of force used against others.  That's called plenty of things, but, hypocrisy (probably not using it right) would be the simplest way to explain it.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
April 26, 2013, 01:22:52 PM
#93

When there is no choice to decline the services of the state, it is theft. If every bit of work you do - which you need to do to survive - results in stuff being taken from you, it is slavery. Sugar coat it all you like, but this is the reality of the situation.

The whole point of insurance and/or subscription models is that you pay a small fee in the expectation that you are unlikely to need their services. Not subscribing and then expecting to just pay your subs on the day is laughable - you will be given the choice of the market rate for fire fighters at short notice or accepting the alternatives.

Regarding their time - it wasn't spent already. They didn't have to risk their lives putting out a fire - they could just sit in their truck.

Feel free to build up a night-watch-state like you want somewhere.
But don't force your idea of freedom upon me, please.
I doubt it's gonna work, but it seems like there are a lot of Bitcoiners who do (because well the decantrilzed money is one of your things)
So there shoudl be quite a lot of people who are rich now or gonna be rich and could buy a small state together /at least if Bitcoin is successful.

I would be excited to watch this experiment, maybe I'm wrong and it does work.


full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
April 26, 2013, 01:20:50 PM
#92
I happen to share that opinion. Where we disagree is that you think it is also good if people are forced to rescue someone.

This law basically says "don't be an ass" and I'm fine with a law forcing this.
So yes, that's where the difference between our opinions is based on.

You want to lock people in cages for being 'an ass'?

There are some real shits on this planet, many of whom I would like nothing to do with. This doesn't mean I get to lock them in cages, just because I don't like them.

Oh yes, I want to.
At least the real big ones like mass murderers as a protection from let them continuing being that.


Quote
Can you define 'good things' objectively? Will everyone share the same opinion? If this was the case, you wouldn't need taxation at all - people would be willing to make the sacrifices without force.

As soon as you use force, to implement some subjective 'good', you are on a slippery slope to tyranny.

It's difficult but I try it by defining "suffering" and "loss of work" as bad things.

We aren't talking about mass murderers here, Mr Strawman... we're talking about someone not going out of their way to help another. You want to lock people up, just for inaction (ie. the default state of an individual).

How about the suffering of injured/dead fire fighters and their families? How about the loss of time that they could have been spending with them, instead of doing unpaid labour?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
April 26, 2013, 01:18:29 PM
#91
Quote
OK, so, force is moral if the suffering inflicted is outweighed by the suffering prevented?

Does that sound acceptable?

It's difficult to know how much "suffering prevented is", especially if it lies in the future, so it's a bit problematic.
But yes.

Indeed it is, very difficult. So already we've run up against a snag: how to predict how much suffering your infliction of suffering will prevent. But let's set that snag aside for the moment, for I've a very important question: Who does the weighing? The man whose suffering is being prevented? The man upon whom suffering is being inflicted to prevent the other's suffering? Or the man with the gun?
If possible a man who has some expertise in the field.
(so yes, more like scientists)
OK, so of those three men, which is more likely to have the expertise? The man whose house is burning down, the firefighter, or the man pointing the gun at the firefighter to make him put out the fire?
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
April 26, 2013, 01:17:22 PM
#90

You ignore the loss incurred by the fire fighters. Their time, risk and labour is not free and they could have been doing something else.

I don't ignore it, I know they have to be paid for this, but we are discussing about the way to do so.
Btw: Their time was already spent in that example.

Quote
Perhaps the home owner could have agreed to give a portion of the house as payment to the fire fighters? Then there would still be a house and the fire fighters would have been compensated for their labour. A free market trade, a negotiation, a voluntary act.

Oh great. "I'm a medic. I see you are dieing, well that will be 1 million $ (/10 BTC :3) to help you. Decide fast!"

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What we are discussing is paying $75 per year for fire protection, which those who lost their home refused to do. Therefore, the fire fighters have not been paid in this case.
Yes, because this payment model is awful there was a big loss.

Quote
The alternative of the fire fighters being paid via taxation is just treating everyone else as slaves; forcing people to labour, in order to extract wealth from them, is slavery.
I disagree. While there are many bad things in states that can end up in a kind of slavery-state it's not the taxation itself.
If done right, it doesn't enslave anyone (my personal opinion).

When there is no choice to decline the services of the state, it is theft. If every bit of work you do - which you need to do to survive - results in stuff being taken from you, it is slavery. Sugar coat it all you like, but this is the reality of the situation.

The whole point of insurance and/or subscription models is that you pay a small fee in the expectation that you are unlikely to need their services. Not subscribing and then expecting to just pay your subs on the day is laughable - you will be given the choice of the market rate for fire fighters at short notice or accepting the alternatives.

Regarding their time - it wasn't spent already. They didn't have to risk their lives putting out a fire - they could just sit in their truck.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
April 26, 2013, 01:15:40 PM
#89
Quote
OK, so, force is moral if the suffering inflicted is outweighed by the suffering prevented?

Does that sound acceptable?

It's difficult to know how much "suffering prevented is", especially if it lies in the future, so it's a bit problematic.
But yes.

Indeed it is, very difficult. So already we've run up against a snag: how to predict how much suffering your infliction of suffering will prevent. But let's set that snag aside for the moment, for I've a very important question: Who does the weighing? The man whose suffering is being prevented? The man upon whom suffering is being inflicted to prevent the other's suffering? Or the man with the gun?
If possible a man who has some expertise in the field.
(so yes, more like scientists)
There are more people involved in a state than just the one with the gun.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
April 26, 2013, 01:13:44 PM
#88
Quote
OK, so, force is moral if the suffering inflicted is outweighed by the suffering prevented?

Does that sound acceptable?

It's difficult to know how much "suffering prevented is", especially if it lies in the future, so it's a bit problematic.
But yes.

Indeed it is, very difficult. So already we've run up against a snag: how to predict how much suffering your infliction of suffering will prevent. But let's set that snag aside for the moment, for I've a very important question: Who does the weighing? The man whose suffering is being prevented? The man upon whom suffering is being inflicted to prevent the other's suffering? Or the man with the gun?
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
April 26, 2013, 01:13:13 PM
#87


Indeed it is a slippery rope and a lot of politics fail while doing this.
And you could discuss it, because right now there are people starving all over the planet. But the discussion whether or not this is a good idea would fill another hundred pages.
There just is no easy way out.

Not really.  It's been tried many times in communist countries.  People starved.  The free market does it best, because the central planners just don't have enough information and never will.
Rofl, free market alone does shit.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 253
April 26, 2013, 01:11:43 PM
#86


Indeed it is a slippery rope and a lot of politics fail while doing this.
And you could discuss it, because right now there are people starving all over the planet. But the discussion whether or not this is a good idea would fill another hundred pages.
There just is no easy way out.

Not really.  It's been tried many times in communist countries.  People starved.  The free market does it best, because the central planners just don't have enough information and never will.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
April 26, 2013, 01:07:33 PM
#85
Quote
OK, so, force is moral if the suffering inflicted is outweighed by the suffering prevented?

Does that sound acceptable?

It's difficult to know how much "suffering prevented is", especially if it lies in the future, so it's a bit problematic.
But yes.

Quote
That's a slippery slope.  Once you've justified the use of force to do good once, where do you draw the line?

Wouldn't it be better and more efficient to take money from everyone so you could have one centralised agency to give food to everyone to make sure they all have both the adequate amount and the necessary nutrition that everyone needs?  As one example

Indeed it is a slippery rope and a lot of politics fail while doing this.
And you could discuss it, because right now there are people starving all over the planet. But the discussion whether or not this is a good idea would fill another hundred pages.
There just is no easy way out.

Quote
It's really not, it's actually quite easy.  Unless you have to justify government actions, then it becomes impossible...
I guess you will throw a generalized sentence in my way like "Nobody should be forced" and be like "That is it".
I'm afraid it's not.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 253
April 26, 2013, 01:02:49 PM
#84


I know it's really vague, but well you want me to define how humanity's morality should be, that's a tough job.

It's really not, it's actually quite easy.  Unless you have to justify government actions, then it becomes impossible...
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 253
April 26, 2013, 01:00:25 PM
#83


Guess we can stop here, because I don't think one of us is going to convince the other.
I think he is kinda wrong, as long as the force used is not doing worse things than the good things it accomplishs, it's ok.
I see nothing wrong with forcing people to care at least a bit about others.

That's a slippery slope.  Once you've justified the use of force to do good once, where do you draw the line?

Wouldn't it be better and more efficient to take money from everyone so you could have one centralised agency to give food to everyone to make sure they all have both the adequate amount and the necessary nutrition that everyone needs?  As one example.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
April 26, 2013, 01:00:02 PM
#82
OK, that's "bad," we'll provisionally accept "suffering" in the place of "bad." What about "good"?

Okey, we have "bad", so we can move on by defining good as the opposite as bad. So "not suffering".

OK, so, force is moral if the suffering inflicted is outweighed by the suffering prevented?

Does that sound acceptable?
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
April 26, 2013, 12:58:02 PM
#81
OK, that's "bad," we'll provisionally accept "suffering" in the place of "bad." What about "good"?

Okey, we have "bad", so we can move on by defining good as the opposite as bad. So "not suffering".

I know it's really vague, but well you want me to define how humanity's morality should be, that's a tough job.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
April 26, 2013, 12:56:38 PM
#80
If you wouldn't force a prostitute to provide her service without pay, why would you force anyone else?
The prostitute isn't watching something burn up in flames.
There is no reason to force anything here and the bad defintely outweigths the good in this case.

-> this argument is invalid.

Your points boils down to this: "People will help me, or I will make them help me."

If you don't see the problem with this, see here.

The other points boil down to this:
"I am free to be whatever jackass I want to be"
If you don't see the problem with this, see here.

Generalization, it's not helpful at all.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
April 26, 2013, 12:56:26 PM
#79
If you wouldn't force a prostitute to provide her service without pay, why would you force anyone else?
The prostitute isn't watching something burn up in flames.
There is no reason to force anything here and the bad defintely outweigths the good in this case.

-> this argument is invalid.
So, force is moral if the "good" outweighs the "bad"? Could you objectively define those concepts for me?

Quote
It's difficult, but I try it by defining "suffering" and "loss of work" as bad things.
OK, that's "bad," we'll provisionally accept "suffering" in the place of "bad." What about "good"?
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
April 26, 2013, 12:54:24 PM
#78
If you wouldn't force a prostitute to provide her service without pay, why would you force anyone else?
The prostitute isn't watching something burn up in flames.
There is no reason to force anything here and the bad defintely outweigths the good in this case.

-> this argument is invalid.
So, force is moral if the "good" outweighs the "bad"? Could you objectively define those concepts for me?

Quote
It's difficult, but I try it by defining "suffering" and "loss of work" as bad things.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
April 26, 2013, 12:51:57 PM
#77
If you wouldn't force a prostitute to provide her service without pay, why would you force anyone else?
The prostitute isn't watching something burn up in flames.
There is no reason to force anything here and the bad defintely outweigths the good in this case.

-> this argument is invalid.

Your points boils down to this: "People will help me, or I will make them help me."

If you don't see the problem with this, see here.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
April 26, 2013, 12:50:52 PM
#76
If you wouldn't force a prostitute to provide her service without pay, why would you force anyone else?
The prostitute isn't watching something burn up in flames.
There is no reason to force anything here and the bad defintely outweigths the good in this case.

-> this argument is invalid.
So, force is moral if the "good" outweighs the "bad"? Could you objectively define those concepts for me?
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
April 26, 2013, 12:49:00 PM
#75
If you wouldn't force a prostitute to provide her service without pay, why would you force anyone else?
The prostitute isn't watching something burn up in flames.
There is no reason to force anything here and the bad defintely outweigths the good in this case.

-> this argument is invalid.
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