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Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information - page 359. (Read 2761645 times)

sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
I should have local (trustless) signing online tomorrow (no password sent to the server). A big thank you to CFB, Antonios, BloodyRookie and Jaguar0625 for all their help with this Smiley
I want to make sure people understand that it is not "trustless" signing. Unfortunately, the way we are doing it, you still have to trust the server. You don't send the password to the server, but you sign an array of bytes that the server sent to you. How do you know that this array really represents the transaction you intended to sign? To be sure, the client would need to parse and verify it, so the client needs to know exactly how each transaction type should be represented as a byte array. This is not a secret, it is in the source code, but if you need to implement this logic on the client side, you might as well construct the byte array yourself, and not trust the server to do it for you correctly. So by letting the client be simple and lazy and let the server construct the byte array, you necessarily have to trust the server. Furthermore, you have to trust that the server response you received has not been modified in transit - and the issue of using SSL to talk to the server becomes important again.


legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1134
James is a beast with great ideas and implementation. But our opinions are not trolling. If you like nodecoin please explain to me why its good for Nxt. I'd love to change my mind if it is.

James is one of the few here actively developing his ideas.  I support people who produce.

The goal of nodecoin is to offer a simple reward for running a node and supporting the network.  As issuer, James is free to issue the asset as he sees fit.  As with any asset in AE, there is no intrinsic value.  Only time will tell if nodecoins will have any real market value...  if there is no market, then it becomes one of (possibly) hundreds of worthless assets listed in AE.  

nodecoin is an experiment, and will live or die (as any other asset) on its own with no harm to NXT.

+ 1

Now we have no rewards for the guys running nodes, then we have nodecoin, don't worry about it. If it worth nothing in the end, no harm is done. Love the ideas of James. We need to get a lot of nodes out there and Peerexplorer is not always filled with enough cashes.

It pollutes and confuses the brand and user experience.
I forgot about the marketing aspects. Maybe some marketing guys who understand human behavior a bit would like to comment on whether NXT becomes more or less attractive, if they automatically get bonus coins just for running NXT. Do people prefer to get free stuff or do they hate it?

Does this confuse or enhance what NXT is? Does it improve or degrade the user experience?

James

Edit: I could just see the big problem this creates. What if everyone that installs NXT started getting dozens of free coins that they could sell in AE? It would be like a multifaceted faucet if people could select what free coins they wanted and which ones they didnt want.
legendary
Activity: 1205
Merit: 1000
James is a beast with great ideas and implementation. But our opinions are not trolling. If you like nodecoin please explain to me why its good for Nxt. I'd love to change my mind if it is.

James is one of the few here actively developing his ideas.  I support people who produce.

The goal of nodecoin is to offer a simple reward for running a node and supporting the network.  As issuer, James is free to issue the asset as he sees fit.  As with any asset in AE, there is no intrinsic value.  Only time will tell if nodecoins will have any real market value...  if there is no market, then it becomes one of (possibly) hundreds of worthless assets listed in AE.  

nodecoin is an experiment, and will live or die (as any other asset) on its own with no harm to NXT.

+ 1

Now we have no rewards for the guys running nodes, then we have nodecoin, don't worry about it. If it worth nothing in the end, no harm is done. Love the ideas of James. We need to get a lot of nodes out there and Peerexplorer is not always filled with enough cashes.

It pollutes and confuses the brand and user experience.
Pffff  Lips sealed

The average crypto enthusiast don't run nodes or understand this, why would it hurt the brand? Maybe it even attracts miner 2.0 because they can finally mine on the Nxt network. Who knows, just let it happen, that's were AE is made for!  Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1134
nodecoin is a response to the need for people to get regular and predictable feedback for running a NXT node. It satisfies this requirement. As to what all the other side effects it creates, I am just a simple C programmer and when you start extrapolating things like the behaviors of large groups of people, well, I admit I cannot predict. AUR proves this.

Also, notice that if trying to boost the NXT network via nodecoin purchases doesnt work, what have we lost? Without nodecoin, there wouldnt even be that option. nodecoin price fluctuations do not impact NXT. nodecoin is not NXT. nodecoin is a NXT asset. If NXT relies on nodecoin for all of its network infrastructure incentive and nodecoin fails, then where are we? I think we would be where we are now, without nodecoin.

James

There's a saying that when you're up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember that you originally intended to drain the swamp.   That's what we've got here.  

The original problem is that everybody eventually comes to the realization that forging NXT isn't getting them rich like they expected Bitcoin mining would do, in fact, if they've got under 2000 NXT, they probably won't even mine a single block in a year (if all NXT owners had their client open and were forging too).   This is a disappointment and demotivator to them, and understandably so.  But hey, that what PoS as implemented by NXT is.  Everybody gets the same ROI / interest rate on their stake, and if you ain't got much stake, your equal share of the pie is gonna be really, really small.  

The original BCNext (and I believe correct) solution to the problem is to realize that NXT doesn't need super expensive computers to keep the node network going, that people will keep their clients open and bear the minimal expense as an altruistic item on their part, that instead of profit motive to run NXT we have community spirit.

Some people feel that a bigger motive / incentive is needed.  This is very noble and I am not cutting them down.  But I come back to my previously stated BCNext's First Law - For every attempt to create a new incentive in the zero-sum NXT system, an equal and opposite disincentive is created somewhere else in that system.  

Money in NXT is not created out of thin air every few minutes like it is in BCT.  There is only so much and if it goes into one person's pocket, it came out of somebody else's pocket.

So here's the bottom line question.  If nodecoin is created as a new source of value to motivate people to support the NXT network, WHOSE POCKET DID THIS VALUE COME FROM IN THE FORM OF NXT?
It comes from the pockets of people who speculate in nodecoin. It is their BTC converted to NXT that they will be spending to support nodecoin, which supports NXT nodes.

It is not a zerosum situation at all, when external money flows in and buys NXT to buy nodecoins
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 500
I don't get why we can't build coins on top of NXT (ala Nodecoin, etc.). I don't think it would make NXT less valuable because these coins built on NXT require NXT to be stable. If of course we want these these Nodecoin-like crypto's to replace the Bitcoin-clones.

Even though Nodecoin is in essense POW imo. NXT will grow if cryptos make NXT the platform to grow on.

For example, if 100 Nodecoin-like crypto's are built on top of NXT as a result of NXT being more secure compared to Bitcoin, unless of course "Nodecoin"(s) make it more likely to have an effect like a 51% attack for NXT, then from my view the NXT system will become more valuable because NXT will be their backbone.

Maybe my thinking is wrong...idk Tongue


also...can any other crypto do something like 'nodecoin'?  Huh
sr. member
Activity: 316
Merit: 250
Simcoin Puny Humans Communicator
I'm not saying I know the answer to this as I have just thought of this this second. But if bitcoin from the beginning gave miners bitcoins AND "minecoins". What would bitcoin's value look
like today?
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1134
Can anyone tell me why I get nodecoin even though I'm not running the nodecoin script?
Because the nodeminers that are running have detected that you are actually running a NXT node. In their supreme evilness, they then report to central "destroy NXT" headquarters that you must be rewarded for doing so. This will then make you immediately stop running a NXT node, thus destroying all of NXT.

muhwahwahwahwa

James
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
What about a TF coin?

It will be awarded to all the nodes that publish their IP address that enables transparent forging. Based on the nodecoin discussion, I am convinced this will kill TF. After all, anything that reinforces a certain behavior is sure to do the exact opposite.

James

Edit: Too late, I just issued TFcoin. TF is doomed!

can you issue an emulecoin while youre at it?
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
nodecoin is a response to the need for people to get regular and predictable feedback for running a NXT node. It satisfies this requirement. As to what all the other side effects it creates, I am just a simple C programmer and when you start extrapolating things like the behaviors of large groups of people, well, I admit I cannot predict. AUR proves this.

Also, notice that if trying to boost the NXT network via nodecoin purchases doesnt work, what have we lost? Without nodecoin, there wouldnt even be that option. nodecoin price fluctuations do not impact NXT. nodecoin is not NXT. nodecoin is a NXT asset. If NXT relies on nodecoin for all of its network infrastructure incentive and nodecoin fails, then where are we? I think we would be where we are now, without nodecoin.

James

There's a saying that when you're up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember that you originally intended to drain the swamp.   That's what we've got here.  

The original problem is that everybody eventually comes to the realization that forging NXT isn't getting them rich like they expected Bitcoin mining would do, in fact, if they've got under 2000 NXT, they probably won't even mine a single block in a year (if all NXT owners had their client open and were forging too).   This is a disappointment and demotivator to them, and understandably so.  But hey, that what PoS as implemented by NXT is.  Everybody gets the same ROI / interest rate on their stake, and if you ain't got much stake, your equal share of the pie is gonna be really, really small.  

The original BCNext (and I believe correct) solution to the problem is to realize that NXT doesn't need super expensive computers to keep the node network going, that people will keep their clients open and bear the minimal expense as an altruistic item on their part, that instead of profit motive to run NXT we have community spirit.

Some people feel that a bigger motive / incentive is needed.  This is very noble and I am not cutting them down.  But I come back to my previously stated BCNext's First Law - For every attempt to create a new incentive in the zero-sum NXT system, an equal and opposite disincentive is created somewhere else in that system.  

Money in NXT is not created out of thin air every few minutes like it is in BCT.  There is only so much and if it goes into one person's pocket, it came out of somebody else's pocket.

So here's the bottom line question.  If nodecoin is created as a new source of value to motivate people to support the NXT network, WHOSE POCKET DID THIS VALUE COME FROM IN THE FORM OF NXT?
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1005
Guys, calm down. Where is the warranty, that some James II will not create nodecoin II? Who will stop this? James had an idea, he worked on it, we see it works in AE, so let things happen. Time and market will show, it was good idea or bad. It cost nothing today to make a xxxcoin as asset (ok James, time is money and you work is money). These last days i see a lot of killing of new ideas, that's worry me the most. We are decentralized (I think), source is open, everybody is free to do what they think they can do good. Don;t kill motivation and initiative and move on.

That's my 2 NXT. Sorry for english.
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1134
Will we indeed have this same discussion with every single one of the hopefully hundreds of coins that will be created in the future?

Hey...  watch it there now...  you might be making too much sense there fella!!!   Grin

That's clearly not the point. The problem is trying to solve this issue in this way creates all kinds of other potential issues. Nodecoin is not building an asset on top of the AE, its hacking functionality in sideways that should be a part of the core implementation using the nxt unit as a fee. James is not part of the core team. JP and CfB(for now) are. They are all capable and intelligent along with many others here. Some we should be discussing how to implement a proper node support structure together. Everyone wants to talk about it. So how about everyone put their heads together and figure out the RIGHT way to have a robust network of reliable nodes.
TF will do this, but now we have to worry about TFcoin. It will actually reward people who support TF by publishing their IP addresses.

Now that I have realized I can destroy anything by creating a NXT asset that reinforces the behavior of that anything, nothing is safe anymore. All the desired actions will automatically get tokens of appreciation from a robot. That in turn will corrupt and dilute the essence of the very fabric of the universe. I think this will end up creating a quantum computer! This is horrible hacking at its highest level!

James


hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
I should have local (trustless) signing online tomorrow (no password sent to the server). A big thank you to CFB, Antonios, BloodyRookie and Jaguar0625 for all their help with this Smiley

What does this mean for us?
sr. member
Activity: 308
Merit: 250
Can anyone tell me why I get nodecoin even though I'm not running the nodecoin script?
legendary
Activity: 1205
Merit: 1000
James is a beast with great ideas and implementation. But our opinions are not trolling. If you like nodecoin please explain to me why its good for Nxt. I'd love to change my mind if it is.

James is one of the few here actively developing his ideas.  I support people who produce.

The goal of nodecoin is to offer a simple reward for running a node and supporting the network.  As issuer, James is free to issue the asset as he sees fit.  As with any asset in AE, there is no intrinsic value.  Only time will tell if nodecoins will have any real market value...  if there is no market, then it becomes one of (possibly) hundreds of worthless assets listed in AE.  

nodecoin is an experiment, and will live or die (as any other asset) on its own with no harm to NXT.

+ 1

Now we have no rewards for the guys running nodes, then we have nodecoin, don't worry about it. If it worth nothing in the end, no harm is done. Love the ideas of James. We need to get a lot of nodes out there and Peerexplorer is not always filled with enough cashes.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1010
I like to see this side of you. You never showed your sense of humor before it is quite funny. BTW nodecoin to me is not "bad" for nxt. I think we are better off without it.

I'm sure we all want to end this discussion. Can some people who are pro nodecoin please state why James should continue with it and be specific.

BTW I think how you were able to get nodecoin to work was very clever and all by yourself, amazing.

I will not state pro or against, because it is not the fundamental discussion.
If we are going to engage in that kind of discussion, we would need to do it for each and every coin someone wants to create.

And who would judge? Another committee? "The community"?
Which community? The one here on BCT? The one on nextcoin.org? The one on nxtcrypto? Reddit?

The fact is that the genie is out of the bottle and this isn't something you can "vote" on.

The discussion is not about whether or not a particular implementation of a feature is good or bad, but the fact that apparently we are now seeing what this particular feature does.



I myself only think I'd rather not have nodecoin. I'm not super against it. But others have said it will hurt or kill Nxt. Isn't it worth discussing if some believe that?

I've said all I can about this. I'll leave this discussion.


I want to make clear I am not attacking you or anyone.
I just am trying to clear up the discussion by getting it off the specific issue of "NodeCoin".
This seems to be far wider than one specific instance.
So, is this a Pandora's Box?

That's clearly not the point. The problem is trying to solve this issue in this way creates all kinds of other potential issues. Nodecoin is not building an asset on top of the AE, its hacking functionality in sideways that should be a part of the core implementation using the nxt unit as a fee. James is not part of the core team. JP and CfB(for now) are. They are all capable and intelligent along with many others here. Some we should be discussing how to implement a proper node support structure together. Everyone wants to talk about it. So how about everyone put their heads together and figure out the RIGHT way to have a robust network of reliable nodes.

I repeat my question about Pandora's Box Wink
sr. member
Activity: 308
Merit: 250
I should have local (trustless) signing online tomorrow (no password sent to the server). A big thank you to CFB, Antonios, BloodyRookie and Jaguar0625 for all their help with this Smiley
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
these are questions for which it would be nice to have clear and concise answers:

1) why is the forging mechanism insufficient for protecting the nxt network?

currently there are not decentralization

...
the transaction fees are still too damn high, forging rewards are way to low & come too slow for all but the richest Nxters.
...
In my opinion, you're better off dishing out smaller rewards at a faster pace. People are like lab rats who feel rewarded when they get a pellet. It would be better to get .001 NXT every couple of days than 10 NXT after many months. It is simple psychology. Almost every successful software "invention" these days is successful because it's addicting. Twitter, facebook, Angry Birds, Flappy Birds, Candy Crush, Farmville. All very successful and all very addicting. Give the people their pellets and they will be addicted and they will forge.



2) what behavior does the nodecoin encourage? is it possible to encourage this behavior through a modification of the forging mechanism?

yes with share fee group

I don't get your idea, or I get it. I don't know.
Instead of leasing forge power, you commit with your account to share fees among others in the same "share fee group" if you forge a node. You still try to forge a block on your own, but you commit to share the incentive with others if you are successful (with special conditions like committing to run the node for some time, ...). Could this be done with AT and would that make sense?

I really like this idea because your node still has to be online to be part of the shared group.
It retains the decentralisation and number of nodes.

Forging is a bit like bingo/lottery anyway rather than mining and it smooths out the impact of penalty and people pool hopping if the pool was based on a single node...
So generally in stead of buying a single big ticket you are offering to share your ticket and any winnings with lots of others and vice versa
Penalties would only affect the nodes in the shared pool an would not take huge chunks of NXT out of the forging balance in one go by taking a whole pool out.

currently there are very few transactions and therefore the fees for forging (1 nxt) are unattractive
so I think that node coin could short term until the number of transactions does not increase a very good solution


3) who will pay for nodecoins once they are mined? why will they pay for nodecoins?


lease active nodes for several services


4) the answer to #3 above, should also help to answer this question: does the existence of nodecoins dilute the value of 1 nxt?

i propose to mantein forging fees with share fee group and using nxt coins
and i propose lease active nodes using node coin

in the future if the transactions goes up forging fees will be more interesting to ensure the network


member
Activity: 94
Merit: 10
James

P.S. If somebody wants to pay me to kill nodecoin all you have to do is pay the server costs.

If all you want is to reward people to run a node or server you can reward them Nxt which was created and set up to do so.
OK, I will use all the NXT I have and then give it all away to people for running their NXT node. Yes, thats a very good idea. I will send myself 100 million NXT and use that to fund this. Would that work?

James

Edit: I need evil-knievel's help to get the 100 million NXT out of thin air first, so dont hold your breath for this

I understand. But you control some funds, right? We also have tech/infras committees to apply for funds, right?
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
I support Nodecoin and jl777 !
sr. member
Activity: 316
Merit: 250
Simcoin Puny Humans Communicator
I like to see this side of you. You never showed your sense of humor before it is quite funny. BTW nodecoin to me is not "bad" for nxt. I think we are better off without it.

I'm sure we all want to end this discussion. Can some people who are pro nodecoin please state why James should continue with it and be specific.

BTW I think how you were able to get nodecoin to work was very clever and all by yourself, amazing.

I will not state pro or against, because it is not the fundamental discussion.
If we are going to engage in that kind of discussion, we would need to do it for each and every coin someone wants to create.

And who would judge? Another committee? "The community"?
Which community? The one here on BCT? The one on nextcoin.org? The one on nxtcrypto? Reddit?

The fact is that the genie is out of the bottle and this isn't something you can "vote" on.

The discussion is not about whether or not a particular implementation of a feature is good or bad, but the fact that apparently we are now seeing what this particular feature does.



I myself only think I'd rather not have nodecoin. I'm not super against it. But others have said it will hurt or kill Nxt. Isn't it worth discussing if some believe that?

I've said all I can about this. I'll leave this discussion.
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