Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information - page 629. (Read 2761629 times)

Traditional transaction processors generate 1 record per account transaction and confirm it.
Existing card/ATM networks cheat because they do 'authorise' and then confirm/clear the transaction later, and they can only do this because they can reverse and everyone is identifiable.. This model has always been flawed and what is being suggested sounds like it.
The above sounds like its going in that direction by segmenting network/node functions and creating special nodes, this will end up like the above I suspect and flawed.

This is a hard problem - if it was easy to solve the bank networks would not be like they are, they were built when latency was a much bigger problem than it is today, and while its much less of a problem, I agree with CIYAM we ignore it at our peril.

Existing transaction processing systems create a transaction or a block on demand for a single transaction when it arrives, the record is linked to the account and in most systems the TPS limit (H/W not withstanding) it based the time to confirm the transaction (checks, business rules etc) by a single Transaction processor and the account (which is normally locked for the duration of a live transaction) but other than that the systems are inherently asynchronous and process as many transactions in parallel are there are processors.

There are millions of mobiles in Africa sending transactions, via GSM SMS + VPN back to servers in Europe, at over 300tps with confirmation times of less than 10s and these transactions are fully authorised and cleared, and this number is going to grow and the systems exist to service it.

In NXT as I understand it we have a record that is going to be formed whether there are transactions are not, and a single transaction processor - the node that has been chosen to forge.
At 100 tps, with one block every minute that means 6000 records in a block - or have I got that wrong?
So this node needs to confirm all the transactions in the block and then broadcast the results to the rest.
So we have all these nodes available to do work but only one of them at anyone time processes the transactions.
And all those transactions need to go to the right node irrespective of the latency from the client to the forging node.

Depends what your market is, if you never want to get into the physical retail environment - this is not an issue and you can drop it it can be handled in client software, the website takes your payment, completes the purchase and later you get final confirmation or a rejection - just like any other credit card and bitcoin!

If you want it used in shops, then when you are standing at a till, with a queue of people behind you, there needs to be a guaranteed transaction performance - this is hard and this is why the card companies technically cheat and have built the business model to ensure other people carry the liability e.g. retailer / customer.

Solving this is a combination of node, network and the ability to marshall the work, get it to the right place in the network in advance of execution and then execute it in a guaranteed timeframe - when you know the best timeframe you can achieve then communities like retail will look at it and decide whether its ok, do you need to be sub-second - no, can you take minutes - no.

I can see the issue but I cannot tell you the answer - if I knew the answer I would be building it perhaps between us we will find it.

I think you are dead on with this sentence.

I love this little guy

Exactly what I was trying to explain (perhaps you'll accept it when it comes from CfB rather than me).

This is exactly the problem that so many of the "alts" have - they think that you can just reduce the confirmation time and everything is fine.

We can reduce. But if u set gap between blocks to 10 sec then u'll need 6 times more confirmations to get the same reliability.

Could you describe the nature of these changes?

I am still very satisfied with the development.

I am on board with you, too.
Sorry, but Yoda-talk is not helping at all.
As I said: people are actively reaching out here. So move a bit, too, BCNext.

I can understand if CfB is contractually obliged not to tell anything, but BCNext is reading this, too.

And I would like to appeal to change your way of wanting to go ahead by sharing more information with the people who are developing here.
I don't need this info myself, so even do it via PM if need be, but change!

It's a simple matter of changing your mind, because the circumstances have changed.

This is bad communication.

I am not insulting you (sorry if you were offended) but you in fact have only posted your opinions (things like the "ping" time I posted is a *fact* at least at the time that I checked which was actually *while* I was writing my reply).

I know you are very keen to be able to have Nxt "sing and dance" but I don't make the rules about how the internet works or how the GCF works or many other such things.

I do know that the reason why many silly alt clones with fast confirmation times have big fork problems though which is what I've been talking about (they naively ignored things like "network latency" to try and promote their "fast confirmation times").

I proposed a simpler method, but CIYAM said it was impossible.
Do you think using current method (without the random factor) we can simply reduce the time between blocks to 50 seconds? 30 seconds? 10 seconds?

James

Indeed. China, India, South-America and Africa is where the real money is at.
These are the markets we want more than anything. This is the 550~ billion dollar remittance market. Currently western union and similar companies hold monopoly on this with 12.5% fees.
TWELVE POINT MOTHERFUCKING FIVE!

NXT would be a godsend to them and they can forge more NXT with a raspberry pi with solar power in these impoverished nations too.

NXT can truly change the world

Small typo: It's Johns Hopkins University, not John Hopkins.

Why do you keep insulting me? What are the facts? You throw out "network latency" and 300 millisecond hop time. Please use numbers. How many network hops do we need to assume for reaching consensus on a block? Is 30 not enough?

I have proposed a design that I feel addresses your parameters, but you do not even seem to try to understand it before dismissing it as fantasy. Maybe I didn't clarify how I see it working....

Ignoring method for establishing cutoff, the fundamental problem is that we are bandwidth limited. So we have nodes that are very slow that want to submit transactions and also make sure all nodes come to the same answer most of the time.

To solve this, I am suggesting separating block creation into three phases, an uplink phase, a consensus phase and a downlink phase. [Ultimately, uplink for one block could be overlapped with downlink for previous block]

All nodes uplink to hallmarked servers. Hallmarked servers reach consensus using high speed connections. All the nodes get sent or ask for block from multiple hallmarked servers to make sure Evil Bob isnt lurking. Any discrepancies during downlink phase is broadcast far and wide to immediately punish Evil Bob. I know a lot of details are lacking, I am talking about theoretical possibilities and ignoring the difficulty of implementation.

I estimate 100+ hallmarked servers can reach consensus in about 3 seconds. My evidence for this is the ripple network. If ripple can do it, so can NXT.

I estimate the downlink phase to take about double or triple the consensus phase, so total time 9 to 12 seconds.

Please dont insult me by words, give me numbers to refute my model

James

Then, you'll understand.

No.  I am right there with you and so are many others.  But leaning back to watch what happens next seems to be the only "action" we can take until the source code is released and becomes OURS, not THEIRS.

I am seriously considering taking a break from NXT until April.

It seems that I am the only one having issues with this.
So maybe it's the best to lean back and watch as none of my initiatives have gthered attention so far.

None taken (it sucks using internet here) but China will be the world's biggest economy within a few years.

So you can't really ignore it when you are considering anything economical at all.

Sent 5K TestNxt , enjoy it .

You are correct (and I was wrong) that Auroracoin is not an official Icelandic Government project or currency.  It is being promoted by an Icelandic entrepreneur named Baldur Friggjar Odinsson whose name is at the bottom of some of the Auroracoin.org text.  He is almost certainly goes by "balduro" here on bitcointalk - that is the moderator of the Auroracoin [ANN] thread and its mere 31 pages since Feb 2.  It's a pretty good bet that Baldur himself is set up somehow to mine a good chunk of the other half of Auroracoins after the first half are "airdropped" to his people on March 25. (To non-Americans, the whole "airdrop" thing is kind of a joke because our former Central Banker Ben Bernanke said in a speech that it was so important to get cash in the hand of people to spend and break the ongoing  recession that he would drop it from helicopters, leading to his nickname of "Helicopter Ben").

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/annaur-auroracoin-a-cryptocurrency-for-iceland-446062

One angle that is very important here, I think, is inflationary vs. non-inflationary coins.  Iceland has been absolutely clobbered by inflation and that is at the heart of their problem in many ways.  Auroracoin is a litecoin clone and so is inflationary.    NXT is PoS and non-inflationary.  Somehow, if they're going to take a mass national plunge into cryptocurrency in the next month,  you could probably get a lot of Icelanders to prefer dealing with NXT rather than Auroracoin because if it's one thing they understand, it's dilution of their currency.  Iceland is a small, isolated group of people.  If we can't get NXT penetration into a group like that, we're never gonna make it in the big wide world with a hundred other altcoins all trying to get attention in their own way...

I say let's give Baldur a round of sincere hearty applause.  The guy runs a thread and coin pretty much by himself with only 31 pages, and yet comes up with a cryptocurrency that (1) is just behind NXT in market cap on coinmarketcap.com and (2) is about to be the first "official" cryptocoin for an entire nation.   We've got 5000+ members and 2000+ pages and have been working on establishing ourselves 3-4 times longer than he has, and we're just barely ahead of one guy...

Anyway, I think if we don't reach out to make contact with Baldur and somehow try to do a cooperative effort with him at NXT, I think we will be missing out on a big, big opportunity.  Just thinking out loud and trying to spark some brainstorming here....

Hell, we've got whales that could give 3 NXT to everybody in Iceland for the same price Klee made a donation to a brain fund.  No disrespect to Klee, who did a WONDERFUL thing with a science angle to boot, but if an NXT whale matched Baldur's attempt to get everybody in Iceland a cryptocoin start with NXT to get out of their rut, which event do you think the media would cover more?  And which event would do more to reinforce the reputation of NXT as a premier pioneer in the cryptocurrency world?

I tell ya, we gotta figure out some way of connecting with Baudur ASAP for our mutual best interests...




 

where does this public node reside at?  if not a VPS and only you have physical access to it (its not in a datacenter, etc) then it should be safe