How about this:
I ask for refund after 71 days (with full form, and passport etc.) and they sent out the miner on day 72.... (maybe 73 depends how they calculating exactly)
How you would call that?!
And if you are not based in Swiss, and if you are only ordered 1-2 machines...forgett about to open a court case. I talked to my lawyer this morning about the whole issue:
He told me some interessting things:
1. You need to open a case in Swiss (Ok I knew it, but to do that, there are a lot more cost , a lot more, if u compare it to open a case in your country)
2. You need a lawyer from Swiss (Onyl lawyers have a licensure in Swiss, can work there..)
3. Lawyers in Swiss are "very" expensive (If you compare it to german lawyers)
4. In Swiss they dont have the thing "The looser have to pay all expenses" That means even if u r win, IF, its likely that u still have to pay your lawyer and court costs. So at the end your "win" get eating by the costs. Add think about the time you will put in...noone pays for it.
My lawyer is not specialized in that kind of "things", so dont put him (me) 100% on that, but mostly it should be rigth. He said he could organize it all, and sure he would do it, but hes a good lawyer and said to me, only do it, if it is about a lot of money..
Im sure this is what bitmine dealing with, they are very safe even if they loose 10-20 court cases...they dont care, cause even if they loose, they maybe need to pay back some money. Most of the people yelling here "lawyer" would do better if they not doing it, regarding the point 1-4.
Maybe now we know why they send out the early first delivering to the "one company" cant remember the name. They told they started an extra production line for them . Remember? Sure, if it is about a lot of money, then its worth to take it to the court, then bitmine.ch is right to be scared. But thousand single customers....they laughing about! Changing TOS, promising Shit etc.
If somebody have the time, the money, the fun to do it, Go for it! Im on your side. But at the end Bitmine with tousand of unhappy customers will be the winner in the game.
They know how to make the big money even with thousand unhappy customers....
Im pretty sure in for the next years bitmine.ch was the last company in Bitcoin where it works...good timing bitmine.ch! Well Done! ...
hey sawsawsaw
You might be right that this is the tactic of Bitmine AG, but i doubt they'll get through with this. My biggest concern is that they'll be insolvent at some point (the mentioned blockchain adress doesn't mean anything since we don't know anything about ther liabilities). If that happens, no lawsuit will help anyone. As soon as they're bankrupt, everybody (no matter where you live) can participate in the bankruptcy procedure. Therefore you need file your claim within 30 days. No lawyer needed. There are forms given by the swiss authoroties to file the claim. If they won't be bankrupt any time soon, you can enforce your rights with much less effort (and costs) then you described. Of course the entire procedure won't be free. But I rather spend USD 1'000 to get my money back than just accepting the situation without getting refunded at all.
To your questions:
1. correct
2. correct
3. correct. A lawyer in Switzerland charges between CHF 200 - 300 per hour (180 - 270 USD/h)
4. incorrect.
---
Swiss Civil Procedure Code:
Chapter 1: Procedural Costs
Art. 95 Definitions
1
The procedural costs include:
a. the court costs;
b. the party costs.
2
The court costs include:
a. the fee for the conciliation proceedings;
b. the fee for the decision (judgment fee);
c. the costs of taking evidence;
d. the costs of translation;
e. the costs of representation for a child (Art. 299 and 300).
3
The party costs include:
a. the reimbursement of necessary outlays;
b. the costs for professional representation;
c. in justified cases: reasonable com
Art. 106 General principles of allocation
1
The costs are charged to the unsuccessful party. If an action is not admitted by the
court or if it is withdrawn, the plaintiff is deemed to be the unsuccessful party; in
case of acceptance of the claim it is the defendant.
2
If no party entirely is successful, the costs are allocated in accordance with the
outcome of the case.
---
The only exception is, that you wont get party costs during the conciliation proceedings. The fee for the conciliation proceedings are charged to the unsuccessful party though. If you have calculatet the refund request period correct, the case is waterproof. If the unsuccessful party won't go bankrupt during the proceedings, they have to cover these costs.
There are no classactions in switzerland. But there is a thing called "Joinder of parties and joinder of actions":
Art. 15 Abs. 2: If two or more actions that are factual connected are raised against one and the
same defendant, each court that has jurisdiction over any one of the actions has
jurisdiction over all of them.
If bitmine doesn't refund me in time (May 10th), I'll go for it. I'll set up the complaint by myself, will somehow get it translated to Italian and will hand it over to a lawyer working in Bellinzona (already found a good one). If you live in antoher canton in Switzerland or outside Switzerland, you don't have to attend at the conciliation proceedings nor at the courttrial. The lawyercosts for the concilliation proceedings are about USD 1000, since the lawyer doesn't have to draft the lawsuit. The costs for the concilliation proceedings are about USD 220, but the unsuccessful party has to cover thes costs.
If I have to go that far, I'll share my lawsuit draft with all you guys, so you just have to fill in your name / dates etc. and provide me or the lawyer with the necessary evidence (e-mails). If we hand over all the lawsuits together to the lawyer, accoring to the "Joinder of actions", the costs of the lawyer will be a lot cheaper.
Why am I doing this?
Right now I don't have the time and I don't want to throw good money after bad invested money. But
- I truly hate Bitmine and the bad people involved (Zefir excluded) from the bottom of my heart.
- I hate to see how they abuse swiss business practices to trap customers.
- I somehow have a sense of justice
- I really like the law stuff
