Topic: [OFFICIAL]Bitfinex.com first Bitcoin P2P lending platform for leverage trading - page 107. (Read 723974 times)

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Just because FRR aren't being taken doesn't mean they aren't contributing to supply. As I stated earlier, the Fixed rates are pegging themselves to FRR (minus a tiny amount to put them TOB), but FRR is pegged to market rate (determined by fixed rates). Just having all those orders on the books drives down price, just like any other order book. If BTC price was rising, you'd expect lending rates to increase. The simple fact is, FRR are lazy investors and they're driving down rates, just like lazy whales always do. Hell, I wouldn't mind if Bitfinex just scraped FRR. It sucks as a borrower, too, because your rates are always fluctuating. As a lender, it sucks because you'll never get your order taken.

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Must admit, I find it hard to get worked up about the FRR right now - there's been barely any FRR swaps taken in days, so it would seem that the fixed-rate market is in fact setting the going rate at the current level, and the FRR as a system is mostly just taking a giant chunk of supply and keeping it safely tucked away out of sight so that it can't wipe away the limited amount of demand.

It sets a ceiling, and a slowly descending ceiling at that, but it's not really controlling the current rate. If it were 'improved' to be a well-defined rate set by its own rules and responsive to the reality of supply/demand rather the self-referential definition we have (which is the improvement I advocate), I can only expect we'd see USD swap rates crushed even closer to zero. Right now there just seems to be too much money chasing too few traders.

And this with the price of bitcoin finally showing some signs of rising... can't tell if that's a collective statement of "Bullshit, it's going to be back to bear-town any day now", or a sign that even with an uptick the supply of funding is outpacing the need for funding, or just a result of people saying "Trading? Not right now, it's christmastime".

Right now you can toggle between paying interest daily or term. If you choose to autorenew, I see no issue with allowing it to autorenew at FRR or fixed via a similar toggle.

The major issue is that when you open a new margin position you "buy" loans at market value. When FRR is a market maker, it ends up competing with itself.

Where is a description of the process a trader can go through to indicate what to do when the term of a swap expires?  Traders are allowed to indicate whether to close the position or establish another swap, right?  And if you do establish another swap, what are your options?

http://bfxdata.com/swapstats/usd.php

You can see the FRR wall and that 100% of lends have been fixed in both the past 1 and 24 hours. Borrowers should have to explicitly request FRR. Automatically borrowed funds should always be fixed rate. When FRR autolenders are allowed to be market makers, of course they will drive the markets down with supply.

Let FRR be Y.

Y = market price

Let Fixed rate (driven by bots) be X.

X = Y - 0.01

Now that Fixed is the new market price we get:

Y = X

So over time, you have no choice but to have X and Y both go down.

I think the answers we've seen have more than answered that question.

To my mind the defective quality is that the FRR doesn't respond to swaps being taken at FRR - it can only be affected by fixed rate swaps being taken, so it acts as an upper boundary that absorbs any/all demand that makes it that far into the order-book without increasing its own rate in response to that excess demand.

Once the lower layers of 'undercutting' get cleared out, there's another $2.5M that can be taken without the going rate increasing by a single iota, which is just plain absurd. To fix it, we need a FRR that's set by its own rules (my suggestion being to use indicators of overall supply/demand to increment the automated rate up/down), rather than setting the rate by reference to a market that it is itself affecting. As it is we get a self-referential definition and it doesn't work.

"I looked over the FRR posts.  It seems lots of people don't like the ease with which so many lenders shirk their "responsibility" to choose a rate at which they are willing to lend.  Well, they aren't shirking it.  They are choosing to use "the average of all fixed-rate swaps, of all terms, weighted by their amount, as displayed" on the BitFinex site.  If you want to improve it, break it into several "Variable Rates," VR1, VR2, VR3, etc., each with whatever characteristics might be fun.  See what people like.  Maybe VRD1, VRD2, VRD7, etc, for FRR's that use average rates over the last N days.  Excluding the last hour would discourage whales from gaming it."

This is a very good point, it is what I originally thought would be the best way to spread out the offers, by using a delta. Either way, the rate at which someone chooses to lend is basically their decision, and I believe, as it was shown with increased bot usage, most people will simply choose "something is better than nothing". Those people were not really competing with active managers, but now, if they are not using the FRR, but rather a bot, they are. There is no such thing as an "acceptable rate", just an "acceptable rate for me". So, as I have repeated over and over again, the FRR simply let people who don't want to actively manage their funds dump it into a simple bucket, meaning that others could run circles around them, by simply managing their funds. Now, there is no FRR on the book that I can see...and rates are now 0.0388%, roughly half of what they used to be. I am not saying that this is SOLELY due to this, but even so, I think that you will always see a race to the bottom for the limited number of trades that happen during any given time span. I wish it was still 2013 and I could get multiple % per day, but, markets become more efficient with time.

In other news, the upgrade process is coming along well. I think you guys will be very happy with some of the new features and the improved performance. I am thinking, after this is complete, that we can then start addressing some of the long standing requests from the community. I know that some people I know want to have better control over reports, etc.

As we are going into this holiday season, I hope you all have a great time celebrating however you choose to do so. So, Happy Holidays to all, and I am going back to coding. Feel free to respond, as usual.

Good.  FRR was just a lazy way to manage money that should have never been implemented, and that encouraged the terrible low rates that now exist.  If you want to invest your money, spend a little time doing so, and get real returns, on an open market.  The FRR did nothing positive for the swap market.

The USD FRR doesn't even appear at the ask column now.

I may do that the next time; also; to consider: i was short on litecoin and the fact that I was unable to place a buy order was funny.
Just because I placed a buy order at 0.2 USD for 2000 LTC should NOT have invalidated my ability to buy, it was as if the engine counted the 2000 LTC buy order at CURRENT prices, not at the price at which I placed the order, that is, the *monetary value of that order* (which is 400 USD).

on usd lending its ok that FRR is 0.049% and ppl are undercutting to 0.043% but at BTC FRR at 0.07% some ppl are undercutting to 0.02% i bet because ppl autorenew at a fixed rate.

when it first came out, FRR was very useful. hope they come out with something better soon

Bitfinex PR might say: then don't lend................


FRR is useless for those who lend at it.
FRR is a joke for those who can't adjust it.
FRR is a silly joke for those who still maintain it.
FRR is a ridiculous joke for those who still think it has any functionality except distorting free swaps market.

Every creature must find a way to survive for itself.

Undercutting FRR is just a self-help measure to survive and a signal to protest
under existing monstrous FRR tyranny.

please take screenshots and pm them together with your username

thanks

Nope, it doesn't help.
As you may have noticed, 20 LTC was considered HIGHER VALUE than 6 BTC.

More than $1 million undercutting the FRR. I wonder what kind of returns are getting those trying to lend at the FRR...

It's a pity that we can no longer automatically lend our $, unless we autorenew at a fixed rate.

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