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Topic: [OFFICIAL]Bitfinex.com first Bitcoin P2P lending platform for leverage trading - page 292. (Read 723903 times)

legendary
Activity: 2618
Merit: 1007
Much more than chasing a few missed cents here and there on interests I would love to see the following 2 changes in history (at least until we have it finally downloadable or accessible via API):

* no "about 3 hours ago" stuff, always a timestamp
* year included in timestamp (e.g. 08 Jan 2014 13:37)

That would already be enough to at least build a parser manually until we can get that history exported officially. I have the data for 2013 at least now, which is enough for my tax statements - still it'd be great to just get a csv file and be done with it in the future.

Also congratulations to the guy/girl signing up through my reflink and trading enough to pay already a few 100 USD in fees (I receive 10% of these) - hope you made some nice profits with that! Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1868
Merit: 1023
Banks have penalties for early payment of mortgages.

If you want a way out of this lender vs borrower situation - try to think about what could increase both people's profit at the same time.

Hint: it has to do with capturing marginal utility that currently isn't captured.
newbie
Activity: 29
Merit: 0
Also the ability for borrowers to close a loan anytime and take a new offer at a better rate. While the lender is stuck at his pre-set rate and time..

That sounds exactly like how loans work. You're welcome to refinance or pay back by anticipation any time you want and the bank is not allowed to kick you out of your home.
legendary
Activity: 1428
Merit: 1000
Today i received a reply from support and it answered all my concerns:

The interests are calculated hourly. If the trader closes the position within one hour he will pay one hour interest. Otherwise he will pay interests calculated for each hour the position was opened (up to the next round hour).
Interests are paid every night around 00:00 GMT



So interest for cancelled refunds within the hour is accounted for and credited only at 0:00 GMT.
I 'd like apologized for my tone in previous messages, i was annoyed for getting 50% refunds within the hour, and felt being played seeing my balance staying the same.

@Ente  30 day loans between 0.7% - 0.94 % with half refunded within hours. Maybe its mainly due to yesterday's ending rally and traders closing prematurely their position! Also the ability for borrowers to close a loan anytime and take a new offer at a better rate. While the lender is stuck at his pre-set rate and time..
legendary
Activity: 2126
Merit: 1001
Gizmoh:
if this still is a problem of you now, on your second day: Tell us what exactly you did offer. Length, rate, fixed or flash rate. Even better, take a screenshot of the offers list at the moment you post it. Then we may figure out what exactly is going on here.
As I tried to write: Being successfull on BitFinex isn't about cutting fractions of a percent on interest fees. It's about Bitcoin trading first, and being in a longterm stable position (with stable interest rate and enough runtime) secondly.

Ente
legendary
Activity: 2126
Merit: 1001
I am a liquidity taker, as it is called now. I sometimes take as much liquidity that I push the interest rate quite a bit. When I do margin trading, I aim for weeks, up to months runtime of my position. So, of course I take all the liquidity I need, and subsequently replace the most expensive contracts with less expensive ones.
I don't care if I replace them within an hour or later. Honestly, those fractions of a percent are completely irrelevant to me, with price swings of several percent, or up to twenty percent a day. If I was to replace all my taken liquidity within an hour, I would take up new liquidity much faster than it is being replaced, the interest rate would skyrocket, and eventually there would be no offers left altogether!
So, people, relax, I am pretty sure this is a theoretical exploit. This here is about Bitcoin trading. Exploiting this for a few cents isn't worth the trouble, makes little sense economically, and won't even work on any reasonable scale.

Liquidity providers: Have a close look at the offers table. Left side, "liquidity offers", typically has many many "2 day" offers, the longer runtime offers start way more expensive. Right side, "liquidity demand", has almost only "30 day" requests, with only very few "2 day" requests with large markdown.

This means two things:
1) Liquidity takers want long runtime. They will pay more for that too. You will receive much more interest if you offer "30 days". First, because a higher rate is accepted, and second, because you don't have a break every other day.
2) The hypothetical user exploiting the "1 hour problem" would always take the least expensive offer, no matter the runtime, and cancel it after a few minutes (and then it takes much longer for such an inexpensive offer to reappear). So, When you offer your liquidity for 30 days at a slightly higher rate, only users will take it who intent to use it for more than two days, and pay the markup for that.

Finally, I pay higher interest for 30 day offers than flash rate. Just so I can predict the total costs of my position better.
So, if you are interested in a high, steady, risk-free income, fire up some 30 day offers! I'll meet you at the liquidity table! :-)

Ente

hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 500
Seriously, the exploit that it is possible to get loans interest free (or whatever that's now called) is known, it is not THAT hard to find out the time when this is calculated every hour and I also have been bitten by this every once in a while - it seems during a rally borrowers just take whatever is there, wait a bit until new lending offers pop up and then take these, cancelling the existing ones. Unfortunately Bitfinex does NOT seem to do interest calculation once an order completes over its lifetime or since the last midnight payment, whatever is shorter, but rather every hour on all active ones, for whatever weird reason.

While it is possible to exploit this, it doesn't seem to be done regularly. On a second thought, from the traders POV, it isn't worth the hassle. You can earn way more by effective trading, but you can also loose way more than the typical order of magnitude of the swap.

I'd guess that this unfortunate gap becomes largely visible only during flash crashes like the last days, where many people open positions during a very short timeframe. But there is the danger for an experienced and planful attacker to exploit this gap systematically, and probably the Bitfinex team is already aware of that.

Without knowing any internal details of the implementation, my guess is that it's non trivial to calculate the swap precisely in a way that scales out on a growing distributed system, since a complete trading position is comprised of N position changes multiplied with M involved loans.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
full member
Activity: 167
Merit: 100
Given points 1) and 2) I feel satisfied with the explanation.
But ideally prepayment penalties would make sense as it would give incentives to lenders to offer longer term loans.

no, thats traditional-banking bullshit, we dont need no "penalties" and such stuff

yes we do

or then lenders should also be able to claim back their money and force you out in that case if that's what you prefer. There needs to be an incentive to provide longer term loans.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
Given points 1) and 2) I feel satisfied with the explanation.
But ideally prepayment penalties would make sense as it would give incentives to lenders to offer longer term loans.
no, thats traditional-banking bullshit, we dont need no "penalties" and such stuff
Seriously, the exploit that it is possible to get loans interest free (or whatever that's now called) is known, it is not THAT hard to find out the time when this is calculated every hour and I also have been bitten by this every once in a while - it seems during a rally borrowers just take whatever is there, wait a bit until new lending offers pop up and then take these, cancelling the existing ones. Unfortunately Bitfinex does NOT seem to do interest calculation once an order completes over its lifetime or since the last midnight payment, whatever is shorter, but rather every hour on all active ones, for whatever weird reason.

This would be only fair, not a penalty to pay lenders for at least e.g. 1 hour or 1 day no matter how short in time a loan was taken since again it is possible to end up with nothing. Especially bad if you don't renew loans or don't use autolend and this just gets cancelled.

If the schedule to calculate is the same for everyone, then it seems like anyone with any swap open would be see it. ...so then it's trivially easy to game the system, especially if you use the API and do it with a bot.  This exploit pretty much kills lending for me (sad face).
legendary
Activity: 2618
Merit: 1007
Given points 1) and 2) I feel satisfied with the explanation.
But ideally prepayment penalties would make sense as it would give incentives to lenders to offer longer term loans.
no, thats traditional-banking bullshit, we dont need no "penalties" and such stuff
Seriously, the exploit that it is possible to get loans interest free (or whatever that's now called) is known, it is not THAT hard to find out the time when this is calculated every hour and I also have been bitten by this every once in a while - it seems during a rally borrowers just take whatever is there, wait a bit until new lending offers pop up and then take these, cancelling the existing ones. Unfortunately Bitfinex does NOT seem to do interest calculation once an order completes over its lifetime or since the last midnight payment, whatever is shorter, but rather every hour on all active ones, for whatever weird reason.

This would be only fair, not a penalty to pay lenders for at least e.g. 1 hour or 1 day no matter how short in time a loan was taken since again it is possible to end up with nothing. Especially bad if you don't renew loans or don't use autolend and this just gets cancelled.
sr. member
Activity: 288
Merit: 250
ManualMiner
Given points 1) and 2) I feel satisfied with the explanation.
But ideally prepayment penalties would make sense as it would give incentives to lenders to offer longer term loans.

no, thats traditional-banking bullshit, we dont need no "penalties" and such stuff
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
Dear Bitfinex Customers

.....

Last but not least we will also introduce a 1% fee on withdrawals that
require a fast execution (within 24 hrs).
All the others wires will take between 3 and 5 working days and will only
be subject to the current fees ( 10 usd per wire).

Certain of your comprehension I wish you all a happy and prosperous new
year.

Best regards
Raphael
Bitfinex Team


1%?!  Shouldn't it just be a flat rate, similar (but higher) to the regular wire?
full member
Activity: 152
Merit: 100
@gizmoh

If you think it's all so very unfair, simply don't use bitfinex. You say this is the first day you use bitfinex, you might want to consider to change your tone of voice... you are quite aggressive in the way you reply in this topic and personally I don't think that helps the conversation along. Just a thing to consider before posting...


legendary
Activity: 1067
Merit: 1000
If you think you are being exploited as a lender, become a borrower and exploit the system.

Free market == free choice.
legendary
Activity: 1428
Merit: 1000

Point 2) im getting around 50% refund. So many borrowers misclicking, i don't think so. Are you actively lending?

Lend at lower rates you will get less refunds and less frequently. As Bitfinex said, do it for a few days first

Thanks for the advice sleger.
legendary
Activity: 1428
Merit: 1000

Please before saying it's unfair consider the following:

1) The time at which swaps are calculated every hour is not known by anybody but Raphael.
2) The rate of people that take liquidity and give it back in less than 1 hr is almost nil (basis points, not even 1%).
3) It would be impossible for the system to calculate swaps every minute, an hour is actually a very good approximation.

Nobody is giving away anything for free, but each swap has 2 legs, the liquidity provider and the trader.
We have to think about both of them.

Have a good day

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team


Point 2) im getting around 50% refund. So many borrowers misclicking, i don't think so. Are you actively lending?

As this is my 1st day lending, I fail to understand the swaps calculation towards lenders who are get daily interest,  however im going to investigate this issue with a trading account.

You are very talkative indeed to be in your first day.
Perhaps you should first accumulate some experience on how our platform works before posting.

Have a good day

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team

Second time its a stay quiet reply, instead of my issues being answered !
Its my first day, so please explain to me why roughly around half of  loans being fulfilled are refunded within the hour.
How would this be different in the coming days? If the supposed unfair advantage to lender i'm pointing out is real, this trick will continue, as me learning the platform will not change this. Its in my interest that bitfinex works right for both parties, so please don't take this as a critique but rather a suggestion to investigate this issue.
full member
Activity: 167
Merit: 100

Point 2) im getting around 50% refund. So many borrowers misclicking, i don't think so. Are you actively lending?

Lend at lower rates you will get less refunds and less frequently. As Bitfinex said, do it for a few days first
sr. member
Activity: 446
Merit: 250
CAT.EX Exchange

Last but not least we will also introduce a 1% fee on withdrawals that
require a fast execution (within 24 hrs).
All the others wires will take between 3 and 5 working days and will only
be subject to the current fees ( 10 usd per wire).



Does this apply also to BTC and LTC withdrawals?

wires = cash
sr. member
Activity: 446
Merit: 250
CAT.EX Exchange

Please before saying it's unfair consider the following:

1) The time at which swaps are calculated every hour is not known by anybody but Raphael.
2) The rate of people that take liquidity and give it back in less than 1 hr is almost nil (basis points, not even 1%).
3) It would be impossible for the system to calculate swaps every minute, an hour is actually a very good approximation.

Nobody is giving away anything for free, but each swap has 2 legs, the liquidity provider and the trader.
We have to think about both of them.

Have a good day

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team


Point 2) im getting around 50% refund. So many borrowers misclicking, i don't think so. Are you actively lending?

As this is my 1st day lending, I fail to understand the swaps calculation towards lenders who are get daily interest,  however im going to investigate this issue with a trading account.

You are very talkative indeed to be in your first day.
Perhaps you should first accumulate some experience on how our platform works before posting.

Have a good day

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team
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