[OFFICIAL]Bitfinex.com first Bitcoin P2P lending platform for leverage trading - page 31.

Timetwister

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Quote from: Samarkand on November 10, 2017, 09:26:49 AM

Quote from: Quickseller on November 09, 2017, 03:37:20 PM

...

I believe they have created additional corporate entities to receive money through so they have been able to receive (and send) USD via the banking system. I understand they are primarily catering to institutional customers so they may not be willing to deal in USD via the banking system for smaller amounts.

I agree with your statement. However, it is probably a legal grey area if you create a new corporate entity for the sole purpose of being able to receive money
after you lost banking relationships with your main business.

Since my post yesterday an additional 30M of Tether have been released. I somehow doubt that institutional investors are buying all these Tether when they
could simply buy Bitcoin directly using a more reputable service like Gemini. Let´s assume that you are an institutional investor willing to buy Bitcoin. Why would
you wire 10M (or more) to Tether just in order to trade on Bitfinex when you could also skip this step and buy Bitcoin at Gemini or a comparable site
without the intermediary buy of Tethers?

I lend some USD there. I just simply used fiat to buy BTC, deposited them on Bitfinex, sold them and lent the money. What's the point Tether?

Samarkand

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Quote from: deisik on November 10, 2017, 11:20:27 AM

...
Correlation doesn't mean causation

Obviously, these two things seem to be closely related to each other, but we can't say with certainty that the recent price rise was due to "printing" Tether tokens and people buying real bitcoins with them, thereby pushing the price up. It could very well be the other way round. Anyway, it is something new, and I'm as concerned as you are and likely anyone else if it is not a sort of FRB at best or a Ponzi at worst. We should definitely seek for further information, and it would be nice if someone from Bitfinex came to us and explained all these things in a simple and comprehensible language

Yes, the causal connection could definitely be the other way around, too.

However, I think my interpretation is more likely, because newly issued Tethers often ended up in margin positions a few hours after the issuance.
This is just too much of a coincidence. If it looks like a duck...

Regarding my earlier post I probably need to clarify that I don´t think that all of the 2017 rally can be attributed to Tether issuance. Nonetheless,
I think that Tether contributed to the price increase, which then lead to increased media coverage, which caused inflows of
genuine money. Push the price up a few hundred dollars using margin positions powered by Tether and watch real money flow in by people, who buy
in due to the (artificial) price rise.

deisik

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English ⬄ Russian Translation Services

Quote from: Samarkand on November 10, 2017, 11:07:28 AM

Quote from: Quickseller on November 10, 2017, 10:41:32 AM

...If I had to guess, I would say someone with $10mm doesn’t use Gemini because you cannot realistically buy that much bitcoin on Gemini (doing so would effectively clear the order book). If you wanted to buy $2mm worth of bitcoin on Gemini you would lose about 2.5% via slippage based on Gemini’s order book. Buying $2mm on bitfinex would result in less than $50 in slippage (<1%) based on their current order book.

Interesting! I was under the impression that Gemini had really good liquidity, but apparently you are right and it isn´t really suited for really big
purchases of several millions $.

I continued digging into the Tether accusations and found this interesting plot:

I´m not really sure who created it, but if the displayed correlation between Tether and BTC price is correct the BTC rally of 2017 has
to be approached with a healthy scepticism.

Correlation doesn't mean causation

Obviously, these two things seem to be closely related to each other, but we can't say with certainty that the recent price rise was due to "printing" Tether tokens and people buying real bitcoins with them, thereby pushing the price up. It could very well be the other way round. Anyway, it is something new, and I'm as concerned as you are and likely anyone else if it is not a sort of FRB at best or a Ponzi at worst. We should definitely seek for further information, and it would be nice if someone from Bitfinex came to us and explained all these things in a simple and comprehensible language

Samarkand

sr. member

Activity: 658

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Quote from: Quickseller on November 10, 2017, 10:41:32 AM

...If I had to guess, I would say someone with $10mm doesn’t use Gemini because you cannot realistically buy that much bitcoin on Gemini (doing so would effectively clear the order book). If you wanted to buy $2mm worth of bitcoin on Gemini you would lose about 2.5% via slippage based on Gemini’s order book. Buying $2mm on bitfinex would result in less than $50 in slippage (<1%) based on their current order book.

Interesting! I was under the impression that Gemini had really good liquidity, but apparently you are right and it isn´t really suited for really big
purchases of several millions $.

I continued digging into the Tether accusations and found this interesting plot:

I´m not really sure who created it, but if the displayed correlation between Tether and BTC price is correct the BTC rally of 2017 has
to be approached with a healthy scepticism.

Quickseller

copper member

Activity: 2996

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Quote from: Samarkand on November 10, 2017, 09:26:49 AM

Quote from: Quickseller on November 09, 2017, 03:37:20 PM

...

I believe they have created additional corporate entities to receive money through so they have been able to receive (and send) USD via the banking system. I understand they are primarily catering to institutional customers so they may not be willing to deal in USD via the banking system for smaller amounts.

I agree with your statement. However, it is probably a legal grey area if you create a new corporate entity for the sole purpose of being able to receive money
after you lost banking relationships with your main business.

Since my post yesterday an additional 30M of Tether have been released. I somehow doubt that institutional investors are buying all these Tether when they
could simply buy Bitcoin directly using a more reputable service like Gemini. Let´s assume that you are an institutional investor willing to buy Bitcoin. Why would
you wire 10M (or more) to Tether just in order to trade on Bitfinex when you could also skip this step and buy Bitcoin at Gemini or a comparable site
without the intermediary buy of Tethers?

If I had to guess, I would say someone with $10mm doesn’t use Gemini because you cannot realistically buy that much bitcoin on Gemini (doing so would effectively clear the order book). If you wanted to buy $2mm worth of bitcoin on Gemini you would lose about 2.5% via slippage based on Gemini’s order book. Buying $2mm on bitfinex would result in less than $50 in slippage (<1%) based on their current order book.

Samarkand

sr. member

Activity: 658

Merit: 282

Quote from: Quickseller on November 09, 2017, 03:37:20 PM

...

I believe they have created additional corporate entities to receive money through so they have been able to receive (and send) USD via the banking system. I understand they are primarily catering to institutional customers so they may not be willing to deal in USD via the banking system for smaller amounts.

I agree with your statement. However, it is probably a legal grey area if you create a new corporate entity for the sole purpose of being able to receive money
after you lost banking relationships with your main business.

Since my post yesterday an additional 30M of Tether have been released. I somehow doubt that institutional investors are buying all these Tether when they
could simply buy Bitcoin directly using a more reputable service like Gemini. Let´s assume that you are an institutional investor willing to buy Bitcoin. Why would
you wire 10M (or more) to Tether just in order to trade on Bitfinex when you could also skip this step and buy Bitcoin at Gemini or a comparable site
without the intermediary buy of Tethers?

Timetwister

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Activity: 1199

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Quote from: illyiller on November 10, 2017, 04:19:45 AM

Quote from: thinkdifferent on November 10, 2017, 01:39:57 AM

Is it safe to lend money on this site?

I never lend money without taking collateral so asking your feedbacks.

It's "safe" if you consider that they got hacked last year and can't explain how it happened. Personally, I don't think the lending rates there justify the exchange risk. It's "easy money" if you think about it like parking money in a bank account and letting the interest stack, but it's much more risky than that.

Given all the volatility and money flowing into the cryptocurrency markets, I think there's much more money to be made trading altcoins/tokens. Or otherwise BTC on leverage. I would only keep money on Bitfinex if I were actively holding a trade. Otherwise I would get my coins the hell outta there.

I can't wait until DEXs change all this and put the centralized exchanges out of business...

It's not worth lending BTC in general, but interest rates for USD are quite good.

deisik

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English ⬄ Russian Translation Services

Quote from: illyiller on November 10, 2017, 04:19:45 AM

Quote from: thinkdifferent on November 10, 2017, 01:39:57 AM

Is it safe to lend money on this site?

I never lend money without taking collateral so asking your feedbacks.

It's "safe" if you consider that they got hacked last year and can't explain how it happened. Personally, I don't think the lending rates there justify the exchange risk. It's "easy money" if you think about it like parking money in a bank account and letting the interest stack, but it's much more risky than that.

Given all the volatility and money flowing into the cryptocurrency markets, I think there's much more money to be made trading altcoins/tokens. Or otherwise BTC on leverage. I would only keep money on Bitfinex if I were actively holding a trade. Otherwise I would get my coins the hell outta there.

I can't wait until DEXs change all this and put the centralized exchanges out of business...

We may have to wait longer than you expect

When Bitfinex got hacked last year, I raised a question whether 70 million dollars (that were stolen from the exchange, if I'm not mistaken) would suffice for developing a fully functional decentralized exchange based on the Bitcoin blockchain (read integrated right into Bitcoin). Most people replied that it would be more than enough. Over a year has passed since then, but we still don't see any DEX's in Bitcoin. Wtf, it took almost a year and a half to get SegWit finally activated in this coin, and it will likely take as much to active LN (a necessary step to decentralized exchanges in Bitcoin), if not longer

illyiller

hero member

Activity: 697

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Quote from: thinkdifferent on November 10, 2017, 01:39:57 AM

Is it safe to lend money on this site?

I never lend money without taking collateral so asking your feedbacks.

It's "safe" if you consider that they got hacked last year and can't explain how it happened. Personally, I don't think the lending rates there justify the exchange risk. It's "easy money" if you think about it like parking money in a bank account and letting the interest stack, but it's much more risky than that.

Given all the volatility and money flowing into the cryptocurrency markets, I think there's much more money to be made trading altcoins/tokens. Or otherwise BTC on leverage. I would only keep money on Bitfinex if I were actively holding a trade. Otherwise I would get my coins the hell outta there.

I can't wait until DEXs change all this and put the centralized exchanges out of business...

thinkdifferent

full member

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ASK ME FOR LOANS

Is it safe to lend money on this site?

I never lend money without taking collateral so asking your feedbacks.

Quickseller

copper member

Activity: 2996

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Quote from: squatter on November 09, 2017, 05:25:57 PM

Quote from: Quickseller on November 09, 2017, 03:37:20 PM

I believe they have created additional corporate entities to receive money through so they have been able to receive (and send) USD via the banking system. I understand they are primarily catering to institutional customers so they may not be willing to deal in USD via the banking system for smaller amounts.

At a glance, that sounds good, but why would institutional investors be trading at Bitfinex?

Liquidity.

Quote

In some jurisdictions, there are fully licensed ETNs. There are CFTC-regulated futures live now on LedgerX,

These do not have liquidity

Quote

And GBTC has been trading for years now,

Lack of liquidity, poor pricing and high fees (to hold the security).

squatter

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STOP SNITCHIN'

Quote from: Quickseller on November 09, 2017, 03:37:20 PM

I believe they have created additional corporate entities to receive money through so they have been able to receive (and send) USD via the banking system. I understand they are primarily catering to institutional customers so they may not be willing to deal in USD via the banking system for smaller amounts.

At a glance, that sounds good, but why would institutional investors be trading at Bitfinex? In some jurisdictions, there are fully licensed ETNs. There are CFTC-regulated futures live now on LedgerX, and CME is coming next month. The finance sector seems to have reached consensus that an ETF in the United States isn't far off, either. And GBTC has been trading for years now, and fetches a very hefty premium due to its availability to mainstream investors.

I find it very hard to believe that institutional investors would be pumping tens or hundreds of millions of dollars into an unlicensed/unregulated entity with a very questionable past (the unexplained hack, the debt tokens, etc).

Quickseller

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Activity: 2996

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Quote from: Samarkand on November 09, 2017, 02:43:51 PM

According to bfxdata active USD Margin Funding has crossed the magic number of 300M USD for the first time:
https://www.bfxdata.com/swaphistory/usd

I´m still not convinced that all claims made regarding the influence of Tether on the current BTC rally are true, but
something definitely seems a bit odd. After all Bitfinex lost their main banking relationships and nevertheless in the last
months active Margin Funding has increased substantially and often coincided with the issuance of new Tethers.
How much real money could actually have arrived at Bitfinex without the ability to deposit money in a bank account
for the majority of their clients? I´m not even mentioning the fact that they recently shut down their operations in the US,
which should have decreased the total amount of Bitfinex clients and the US definitely was not a small market for them.

All of this happened in spite of a claim by Tether that Tether issuance is unlikely to increase by much in the near future. Ironically,
Tether has issued nearly 500M $ since they made that statement.

I believe they have created additional corporate entities to receive money through so they have been able to receive (and send) USD via the banking system. I understand they are primarily catering to institutional customers so they may not be willing to deal in USD via the banking system for smaller amounts.

Samarkand

sr. member

Activity: 658

Merit: 282

According to bfxdata active USD Margin Funding has crossed the magic number of 300M USD for the first time:
https://www.bfxdata.com/swaphistory/usd

I´m still not convinced that all claims made regarding the influence of Tether on the current BTC rally are true, but
something definitely seems a bit odd. After all Bitfinex lost their main banking relationships and nevertheless in the last
months active Margin Funding has increased substantially and often coincided with the issuance of new Tethers.
How much real money could actually have arrived at Bitfinex without the ability to deposit money in a bank account
for the majority of their clients? I´m not even mentioning the fact that they recently shut down their operations in the US,
which should have decreased the total amount of Bitfinex clients and the US definitely was not a small market for them.

All of this happened in spite of a claim by Tether that Tether issuance is unlikely to increase by much in the near future. Ironically,
Tether has issued nearly 500M $ since they made that statement.

Rogerdale

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I don't receive verification SMS for withdrawal. Does anyone have the same issue?

Sukrim

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I guess whatever is stated here:
https://www.bitfinex.com/legal/cst/segwit2x

"4. Settlement—BT2s: In the case of BT2, Segwit2x shall be deemed to exist only if a blockchain has diverged incompatibly from the Incumbent Blockchain. Any settlements of BT2 shall be to B2X. If no Segwit2x blockchain exists pursuant to these T+Cs, BT2 tokens shall be deemed to have a value equal to zero and shall be removed from the platform. All open orders for any BT2 trading pair will be converted into open orders for corresponding B2X trading pairs to ensure pricing continuity and minimize disruption for users trading BTC pairs on leverage prior to the Chain Split Event."

TryNinja

legendary

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What is going to happen with people who bought B2X future tokens at Bitfinex now that Segwit2x isn't happening anymore?

This guy for example, bought 90 B2X: https://medium.com/@bartjellema/why-i-just-bought-90-b2x-bitcoin-segwit2x-futures-f94d0ee13eb9

Ente

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Quote from: mayax on November 08, 2017, 10:57:40 AM

https://medium.com/@bitfinexed/bitfinex-never-repaid-their-tokens-bitfinex-started-a-ponzi-scheme-86a9291add29 Wink

Certainly an interesting read..

Ente

mayax

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https://medium.com/@bitfinexed/bitfinex-never-repaid-their-tokens-bitfinex-started-a-ponzi-scheme-86a9291add29 Wink

deisik

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English ⬄ Russian Translation Services

Quote from: TheQuin on November 08, 2017, 04:49:28 AM

Quote from: deisik on November 08, 2017, 04:35:20 AM

Ultimately, it all comes down to your risk tolerance, mine seems to be low while yours is certainly higher

To be fair for full disclosure I bought all my BTC from $20-$200 and have already cashed out a nice profit so it is easy for me to be relaxed. If the price goes to zero I will have only missed an opportunity to make more rather than having lost something I invested. I wish I could be this relaxed when I'm trading fiat markets, crypto does a weird thing to me where I'm able to disassociate it from money

It certainly doesn't work this way

For example, I didn't buy any bitcoins at all with my own money (I only reinvested here and there). All my bitcoins as well as other cryptos came to me through various jobs, but this doesn't change anything. I just can't see my profits go down even if I know it for certain that I'm long ago past the break-even point (read it is way below zero). I'd rather "suffer" paper profits unearned than real losses incurred. So, as I said in my previous post, it is all about your risk tolerance, and that seems to be sort of a built-in feature

Topic: [OFFICIAL]Bitfinex.com first Bitcoin P2P lending platform for leverage trading - page 31. (Read 723903 times)