[OFFICIAL]Bitfinex.com first Bitcoin P2P lending platform for leverage trading - page 33.

deisik

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Quote from: TheQuin on November 06, 2017, 11:29:57 AM

Quote from: deisik on November 06, 2017, 11:13:10 AM

I still don't get it

I understand perfectly well about being long in BTC and receiving B2X tokens (read you have bitcoins in your account), but I don't quite understand the part between the parts you made bold. In other words, the quote you posted could be read as "Users that are financed [...] short any BTC trading pair will receive B2X". Doesn't it contradict the parts which are bold in your post since you can be short or long BTC in "any BTC trading pair"? This makes no sense to me. If I read it literally, it basically means that both lenders and borrowers should be credited B2X coins which is nonsense, obviously. What am I missing here or is it just Bitfinex not being quite clear in their statement?

It's just that Bitfinex list the other currency pairs the other way round. So being long BTCUSD means you borrowed USD to buy BTC. Being short ETHBTC means you borrow ETH to buy BTC. In both cases, you did not borrow the BTC and therefore own it and get the split token.

It would be simpler to understand if exchanges always listed BTC is the first currency. If they called it BTCETH then the example I just gave would also be a long trade. I have no idea why they don't do it that way

An idea has just struck me

It makes sense to lend your bitcoins (so that you get B2X tokens) and at the same time short the same amount of bitcoins. By lending and borrowing, you will 1) receive some percentage spread (since you can lend at higher rates and borrow at lower, it is pretty easy to do) and 2) protect yourself from any price crash if that should happen due to the hard fork while still receiving the B2X tokens, which you can sell at any time you deem right. Anyone want to comment on this?

TheQuin

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Quote from: deisik on November 06, 2017, 11:13:10 AM

I still don't get it

I understand perfectly well about being long in BTC and receiving B2X tokens (read you have bitcoins in your account), but I don't quite understand the part between the parts you made bold. In other words, the quote you posted could be read as "Users that are financed [...] short any BTC trading pair will receive B2X". Doesn't it contradict the parts which are bold in your post since you can be short or long BTC in "any BTC trading pair"? This makes no sense to me. If I read it literally, it basically means that both lenders and borrowers should be credited B2X coins which is nonsense, obviously. What am I missing here or is it just Bitfinex not being quite clear in their statement?

It's just that Bitfinex list the other currency pairs the other way round. So being long BTCUSD means you borrowed USD to buy BTC. Being short ETHBTC means you borrow ETH to buy BTC. In both cases, you did not borrow the BTC and therefore own it and get the split token.

It would be simpler to understand if exchanges always listed BTC is the first currency. If they called it BTCETH then the example I just gave would also be a long trade. I have no idea why they don't do it that way.

deisik

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Quote from: TheQuin on November 05, 2017, 08:11:03 AM

Quote from: CHKALOV on November 04, 2017, 12:38:30 PM

Who understood or from the experience of past forks: if I borrow USD (not bitcoins) and buy bitcoins before fork will I receive b2x tokens?
I read this statement https://www.bitfinex.com/posts/223 but it is clearly only about the borrowing of bitcoins.

If you borrow USD to buy Bitcoins then at the time of the fork you will own those Bitcoins and therefore get the B2X tokens.
From the statement you linked to:

Quote

Specifically, in the case of a hard fork event, lenders will receive both BTC and B2X. Anyone that is short BTC/USD or long any BTC trading pair (ETH/BTC, LTC/BTC, etc.) will owe B2X to the lender, effectively making the user short B2X. An exception is being made where BTC is borrowed but is not in use as financing collateral. In that case, B2X will accrue to the lender. Users that are financed long BTC/USD or short any BTC trading pair will receive B2X.

I bolded the bit that confirms that. If you buy BTC in a trade then you are long BTC in trading parlance

I still don't get it

I understand perfectly well about being long in BTC and receiving B2X tokens (read you have bitcoins in your account), but I don't quite understand the part between the parts you made bold. In other words, the quote you posted could be read as "Users that are financed [...] short any BTC trading pair will receive B2X". Doesn't it contradict the parts which are bold in your post since you can be short or long BTC in "any BTC trading pair"? This makes no sense to me. If I read it literally, it basically means that both lenders and borrowers should be credited B2X coins which is nonsense, obviously. What am I missing here or is it just Bitfinex not being quite clear in their statement?

TheQuin

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Quote from: Timetwister on November 06, 2017, 10:20:38 AM

When should we have BTC at Bitfinex to get the new bitcoin segwit2x?

At the moment that BTC block 494,784 is mined. The last block mined was 493,348 so another 1,436 blocks to ago, roughly another 10 days. So it should be on the 16th November. That is dependant on the network not getting slowed down too much with some of the miners going off to mine BCH. As it gets nearer the estimate becomes more accurate.
Best to make sure it is there a bit before so you don't risk the transaction getting stuck when they disable deposits.

Timetwister

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Quote from: TheQuin on November 05, 2017, 10:56:26 PM

Quote from: CHKALOV on November 05, 2017, 03:30:07 PM

Thank you for the answer, but I'm not a native english speaker. Are you sure that "financed" means buying on borrowed funds, but not borrowing funds?

Financed in a trading context just means trading on margin. The full context this time was "financed long BTC/USD" so that can only mean borrowing USD to buy BTC.

To understand how Bitfinex is dealing with the fork you just need to think about who actually owns the coin at the moment it is forked. The owner gets the split token, not the borrower. USD is not being forked (don't give Janet Yellen ideas). If you have a margin BTC buy (are financed long BTC/USD) you borrowed USD to buy BTC. You bought the BTC, so own it and did not borrow it.

When should we have BTC at Bitfinex to get the new bitcoin segwit2x?

TheQuin

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Quote from: CHKALOV on November 05, 2017, 03:30:07 PM

Thank you for the answer, but I'm not a native english speaker. Are you sure that "financed" means buying on borrowed funds, but not borrowing funds?

Financed in a trading context just means trading on margin. The full context this time was "financed long BTC/USD" so that can only mean borrowing USD to buy BTC.

To understand how Bitfinex is dealing with the fork you just need to think about who actually owns the coin at the moment it is forked. The owner gets the split token, not the borrower. USD is not being forked (don't give Janet Yellen ideas). If you have a margin BTC buy (are financed long BTC/USD) you borrowed USD to buy BTC. You bought the BTC, so own it and did not borrow it.

CHKALOV

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Quote from: TheQuin on November 05, 2017, 08:11:03 AM

Quote from: CHKALOV on November 04, 2017, 12:38:30 PM

Who understood or from the experience of past forks: if I borrow USD (not bitcoins) and buy bitcoins before fork will I receive b2x tokens?
I read this statement https://www.bitfinex.com/posts/223 but it is clearly only about the borrowing of bitcoins.

If you borrow USD to buy Bitcoins then at the time of the fork you will own those Bitcoins and therefore get the B2X tokens.
From the statement you linked to:

Quote

Specifically, in the case of a hard fork event, lenders will receive both BTC and B2X. Anyone that is short BTC/USD or long any BTC trading pair (ETH/BTC, LTC/BTC, etc.) will owe B2X to the lender, effectively making the user short B2X. An exception is being made where BTC is borrowed but is not in use as financing collateral. In that case, B2X will accrue to the lender. Users that are financed long BTC/USD or short any BTC trading pair will receive B2X.

I bolded the bit that confirms that. If you buy BTC in a trade then you are long BTC in trading parlance.

The only situation that it works the other way round is where someone borrows BTC, in this case, the B2x belongs to the lender.

Thank you for the answer, but I'm not a native english speaker. Are you sure that "financed" means buying on borrowed funds, but not borrowing funds?

TheQuin

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Quote from: CHKALOV on November 04, 2017, 12:38:30 PM

Who understood or from the experience of past forks: if I borrow USD (not bitcoins) and buy bitcoins before fork will I receive b2x tokens?
I read this statement https://www.bitfinex.com/posts/223 but it is clearly only about the borrowing of bitcoins.

If you borrow USD to buy Bitcoins then at the time of the fork you will own those Bitcoins and therefore get the B2X tokens.
From the statement you linked to:

Quote

Specifically, in the case of a hard fork event, lenders will receive both BTC and B2X. Anyone that is short BTC/USD or long any BTC trading pair (ETH/BTC, LTC/BTC, etc.) will owe B2X to the lender, effectively making the user short B2X. An exception is being made where BTC is borrowed but is not in use as financing collateral. In that case, B2X will accrue to the lender. Users that are financed long BTC/USD or short any BTC trading pair will receive B2X.

I bolded the bit that confirms that. If you buy BTC in a trade then you are long BTC in trading parlance.

The only situation that it works the other way round is where someone borrows BTC, in this case, the B2x belongs to the lender.

CHKALOV

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Who understood or from the experience of past forks: if I borrow USD (not bitcoins) and buy bitcoins before fork will I receive b2x tokens?
I read this statement https://www.bitfinex.com/posts/223 but it is clearly only about the borrowing of bitcoins.

0x3d

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Anyone else seeing sometimes weird and wrong numbers on Bitfinex' REST API?

Specifically this is about https://api.bitfinex.com/v1/pubticker/btcusd

Now that the price is currently hovering on low volume around 7110 that API endpoint sometimes returns the correct price value, sometimes a value between 120~150$ above the real price.

Correct:

Code:

{
"mid": "7118.15",
"bid": "7116.8",
"ask": "7119.5",
"last_price": "7116.8",
"low": "6930.1",
"high": "7348.4",
"volume": "50659.55555046",
"timestamp": "1509794526.055699"
}

{
"mid": "7112.55",
"bid": "7111.7",
"ask": "7113.4",
"last_price": "7113.7",
"low": "6930.1",
"high": "7348.4",
"volume": "50559.01356782",
"timestamp": "1509794600.6583316"
}

Not so right:

Code:

{
"mid": "7247.25",
"bid": "7247.2",
"ask": "7247.3",
"last_price": "7247.2",
"low": "6820.0",
"high": "7448.0",
"volume": "63495.49522234",
"timestamp": "1509794571.6418443"
}

{
"mid": "7241.95",
"bid": "7241.9",
"ask": "7242.0",
"last_price": "7241.9",
"low": "6820.0",
"high": "7448.0",
"volume": "63507.08039514",
"timestamp": "1509794579.0906284"
}

{
"mid": "7260.05",
"bid": "7259.4",
"ask": "7260.7",
"last_price": "7260.6",
"low": "6820.0",
"high": "7448.0",
"volume": "63486.30370678",
"timestamp": "1509794588.0283325"
}

Please note the returned timestamp values, all these have been returned within a timespan of about a minute and the price has been nowhere near 7250. Any clue what's going on there?

Edit: Seems fixed now that the price is again above the wrong value.

TheQuin

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Quote from: deisik on November 03, 2017, 03:41:38 AM

Quote from: Colorblind on November 03, 2017, 02:01:19 AM

I understand there is a theoretical risk in lending money for marginal trading, but have someone actually lost their money using that feature?

Thanks!

I don't think you can lose money this way

Since otherwise it would mean exchange insolvency (which is what you seem to implicitly refer to yourself). Personally, I once lent out at too cheap rate (entered one extra zero in the rate filed), but I don't think that could count as losing your money. I just earned less but that was pretty much all. Someone could likely come up with other possibilities and "ways" where you might in fact lose money by lending out. Though I myself can't think up anything like that (apart from insolvency, of course)

That's pretty much the case. There is no risk that the loan is ever defaulted on because the exchange has automated risk management systems in place. If the customer that borrowed your funds' position is moving against them then they will get a forced liquidation so that the loan is repaid. So the only risk is that something happens to the exchange.

deisik

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Quote from: Colorblind on November 03, 2017, 02:01:19 AM

I understand there is a theoretical risk in lending money for marginal trading, but have someone actually lost their money using that feature?

Thanks!

I don't think you can lose money this way

Since otherwise it would mean exchange insolvency (which is what you seem to implicitly refer to yourself). Personally, I once lent out at too cheap rate (entered one extra zero in the rate filed), but I don't think that could count as losing your money. I just earned less but that was pretty much all. Someone could likely come up with other possibilities and "ways" where you might in fact lose money by lending out. Though I myself can't think up anything like that (apart from insolvency, of course)

Colorblind

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This text is irrelevant

I understand there is a theoretical risk in lending money for marginal trading, but have someone actually lost their money using that feature?

Thanks!

TheQuin

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Quote from: Timetwister on November 02, 2017, 05:59:28 AM

Quote from: Sukrim on November 02, 2017, 04:06:20 AM

Quote from: HowardF on November 01, 2017, 11:55:17 AM

Never use FRR, it takes forever to actually lend out anything.

Nope. It highly depends on the time frame - if you use 2-3 days that might be true, but then again if you are using FRR you don't have to care about short term rate spikes anyways.

How fast is it when doing 30 days FRR? There seems to be a gigantic wall of offers anyway.

It's not any quicker to get lent out using 30 days as you're in the same queue. But if you manage to get lent out at FRR using 30 days means you have a good chance to stay lent out for some time and then the interest you receive is variable ie. goes up and down with the FRR. I found it quite good to use 30 day FRR when there aren't many offers and you can get filled easily, the problem is that most of the time that isn't the case. Then someone returns the loan early and you have to log back in change it to a rate that will get lent out. After a couple of months of trying, I decided that automation was essential to making the most income.

Timetwister

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Quote from: Sukrim on November 02, 2017, 04:06:20 AM

Quote from: HowardF on November 01, 2017, 11:55:17 AM

Never use FRR, it takes forever to actually lend out anything.

Nope. It highly depends on the time frame - if you use 2-3 days that might be true, but then again if you are using FRR you don't have to care about short term rate spikes anyways.

How fast is it when doing 30 days FRR? There seems to be a gigantic wall of offers anyway.

Sukrim

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Quote from: HowardF on November 01, 2017, 11:55:17 AM

Never use FRR, it takes forever to actually lend out anything.

Nope. It highly depends on the time frame - if you use 2-3 days that might be true, but then again if you are using FRR you don't have to care about short term rate spikes anyways.

TheQuin

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Quote from: HowardF on November 01, 2017, 11:55:17 AM

Quote from: Timetwister on November 01, 2017, 06:33:42 AM

How are FRR orders executed, older ones first? Anyway it takes forever to get one executed.

Never use FRR, it takes forever to actually lend out anything. They do lend the oldest orders first, and expect durring very high volume it can take a week or more to work through the FRR order wall. Always go for a bot that just undercuts FRR so you're coin actually gets lent out. There are several available if you look (I just happen to be the author of a free open source one, check my sig).

Howard's product is very good but if you don't have a server to run it on I'd recommend coinlend.org. It doesn't have a lot in the way of features but it is free and does the job of getting your coins lent out most of the time pretty well.

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I do Stuff, and stuff.....

Quote from: Timetwister on November 01, 2017, 06:33:42 AM

How are FRR orders executed, older ones first? Anyway it takes forever to get one executed.

Never use FRR, it takes forever to actually lend out anything. They do lend the oldest orders first, and expect durring very high volume it can take a week or more to work through the FRR order wall. Always go for a bot that just undercuts FRR so you're coin actually gets lent out. There are several available if you look (I just happen to be the author of a free open source one, check my sig).

Timetwister

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How are FRR orders executed, older ones first? Anyway it takes forever to get one executed.

MOB

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I had assumed November 9th as well, hence my surprise when just 9 days after the announcement BFX cut off lending for all US customers. I don't know why they would say one thing and then do another.

You can still buy and withdraw crypto, but that's all. BFX has the ability to process USD withdrawals, they simply don't want to for small-time customers. You can read about it in prior announcements from August or so.

The announcement also should have said what will happen to customers who have USD/BTC tied up in 26+ day lending at the time of the announcement. That money will be returned to US accounts after Nov. 9th, but those accounts will be completely frozen. They will be unable to buy BTC, withdraw BTC, or do anything else.

Why create this situation? It is eminently foreseeable and could be addressed by simply cutting off lending 30+ days before accounts are frozen. BFX management is bizarrely incompetent, supposing they care at all about their customers.

Topic: [OFFICIAL]Bitfinex.com first Bitcoin P2P lending platform for leverage trading - page 33. (Read 723861 times)