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Topic: [OFFICIAL]Bitfinex.com first Bitcoin P2P lending platform for leverage trading - page 91. (Read 723903 times)

member
Activity: 93
Merit: 10
Is it better to do Margin trading in fiat or btc? You can do both right?
If you hold 1 BTC, you can sell that one and another one, so you gain the difference of 1 BTC movement on the way down.
If you hold 1 BTC worth of USD, you can sell 3 BTC, so you gain 3x BTC movement on the way down.

Do not ask me why it is done this way on bitfinex. But you see how holding BTC in bear markets is a bad idea.

I thought they changed that a while ago, so that if you go short against a deposit of BTC or long against a deposit of USD you "borrow" (without any fees) from your own funds before you take any swap. I remember an announcement saying that they'd realised that the way it was set up you effectively got more leverage by holding your deposit in the same currency as you were borrowing, and that the change had evened it out so that it didn't matter which one you started out holding.
This is the status after the change, or at least it worked that way a month ago? Maybe they corrected the errors, but I still have a long ltcbtc position after selling that pair, even if history shows a sell. Their platform is criminally insane... Cheesy

if you could provide the relevant order history, we can figure out why you have a positive balance when you said you have sold the pair. I don't think there are these type of errors in the platform as you have claimed
full member
Activity: 151
Merit: 100
Is it better to do Margin trading in fiat or btc? You can do both right?
If you hold 1 BTC, you can sell that one and another one, so you gain the difference of 1 BTC movement on the way down.
If you hold 1 BTC worth of USD, you can sell 3 BTC, so you gain 3x BTC movement on the way down.

Do not ask me why it is done this way on bitfinex. But you see how holding BTC in bear markets is a bad idea.

I thought they changed that a while ago, so that if you go short against a deposit of BTC or long against a deposit of USD you "borrow" (without any fees) from your own funds before you take any swap. I remember an announcement saying that they'd realised that the way it was set up you effectively got more leverage by holding your deposit in the same currency as you were borrowing, and that the change had evened it out so that it didn't matter which one you started out holding.
This is the status after the change, or at least it worked that way a month ago? Maybe they corrected the errors, but I still have a long ltcbtc position after selling that pair, even if history shows a sell. Their platform is criminally insane... Cheesy
full member
Activity: 136
Merit: 100
Is it better to do Margin trading in fiat or btc? You can do both right?
If you hold 1 BTC, you can sell that one and another one, so you gain the difference of 1 BTC movement on the way down.
If you hold 1 BTC worth of USD, you can sell 3 BTC, so you gain 3x BTC movement on the way down.

Do not ask me why it is done this way on bitfinex. But you see how holding BTC in bear markets is a bad idea.

I thought they changed that a while ago, so that if you go short against a deposit of BTC or long against a deposit of USD you "borrow" (without any fees) from your own funds before you take any swap. I remember an announcement saying that they'd realised that the way it was set up you effectively got more leverage by holding your deposit in the same currency as you were borrowing, and that the change had evened it out so that it didn't matter which one you started out holding.
legendary
Activity: 3808
Merit: 1723
How does the maintenance margin work exactly? Its at 15%

If you use maximum leverage, your initial margin is 30% - out of your total position size, you pay for 30% yourself and take out swap to pay for the other 70%. The amount you owe to the swap provider remains fixed, so as the price goes against you and the total value of your position shrinks, the percentage of it that's marked as "owed" increases, and the amount that you own "yourself" shrinks. If that part shrank to 0% you'd have a position worth exactly what you owe and would absolutely have to be liquidated immediately to avoid loss. For safety, the margin call comes when 'your' portion is 15%

So if you started out with the price at $200, with $100/0.5BTC of your own, you'd be able to borrow and sell another 1.166BTC to get $233, bringing you up to a total of $333 of which you provided $100 (30%). You'll continue to owe your swap provider 1.166BTC, so your position remains open until the position as a whole is worth 1.372BTC - at that point you have 1.166 owed and 1.372-1.166 = ~0.2BTC owned, (and 0.2 is 15% of 1.372, or at least it is when you use the exact numbers rather than these rounded versions)

Since you have $333, the specific price point where that's worth 1.372BTC is $242/BTC, but the maximum distance from your starting price will vary - it'll be the same percentage difference each time, so long as you always use the same degree of leverage, and it'll be more "forgiving" (further away) if you use less leverage, since you then start out owning a larger percentage of your position, so it takes longer to shrink down to 15%

tl;dr: Your margin call comes when (Position value - Swap debt)/Position value ≤ 15%

Or to rearrange that a bit, when Position value = Swap debt/0.85 (since your swap debt is a fixed quantity you can calculate that one ahead of time and work out what pricepoint implies that position value)

Yes thanks for the explanation. I was used to margin and initial margin when it came to stocks but here its confusing because it BTC. Thanks for the formula it makes sense.

So if I start out with a price of $200. with $100/0.5BTC of my own and I only sell another 0.5BTC in swap. So my total sell order is 1.0BTC

I currently have 0.5BTC and I borrow another 0.5BTC. So my swap dept is =0.5BTC

Position Value = 0.5/0.85 = 0.588 BTC

So with a starting price of $200, the margin call would occur at $200 / 0.588 = $340 ?
legendary
Activity: 2618
Merit: 1007
Hi

maybe stupid question, but I have entered BTC swap, offering BTC for 5 days. Can I somehow cancel this transaction?
on other exchanges it was possible

thanks
As long as the offer was not taken, you can cancel it. If it is already taken, it will be used up to the 5 days you offered, as intended.
newbie
Activity: 44
Merit: 0
Hi

maybe stupid question, but I have entered BTC swap, offering BTC for 5 days. Can I somehow cancel this transaction?
on other exchanges it was possible

thanks
full member
Activity: 151
Merit: 100

.......

Is this error related to the one where you click sell, while "Market" is selected and your order gets placed as LIMIT instead?

.........


How often does this error happen? How do you place a market order, is the only way to click sell, while "Market" is selected?
Almost anytime you return to the tab with bitfinex and click buy/sell when the "MARKET" was selected previously. Also: market orders use to throw up random message of "selling under/over ticker price, you you really want to do this?!" That one happens so often it makes my ulcers laugh at me!
full member
Activity: 151
Merit: 100
I have a strange error.

I sold on margin some 10 LTC on LTCBTC pair.
Then I sold 10 more.

But I am holding a long position on 20 on LTCBTC pair.

WTF?!?!

Did the buttons malfunction or something?
Is this error related to the one where you click sell, while "Market" is selected and your order gets placed as LIMIT instead?

Actually, I checked the history and it says "LTCBTC    -10.0    0.007852"
Is that a sell order? then why am I holding a long position?

I checked the last 12 days of offer history and yep... only negative numbers in LTCBTC, yet, I hold a positive position.

You little rascals!

The math says that you must have had 40 LTC to start with.  But I wouldn't doubt that the problem is with the display and that you started at zero and now have a short position.  They recently fixed a problem I mentioned with "available balance", so there might be some residual display errors.  Hopefully they aren't math errors!
Nope. I had 0 LTCUSD and saw it will be going down, so I went short. and I ended up with a long position, even if my history says -10 LTCBTC (and another -10 in smaller fractions). When I saw it yesterday when I sold, I just thought it was only a display thing. But today I sold 1 LTCBTC more and ended up with 19 LTCBTC.

So there... it explains a LOT about all the complaints people have been having about them.
full member
Activity: 151
Merit: 100
Is it better to do Margin trading in fiat or btc? You can do both right?
If you hold 1 BTC, you can sell that one and another one, so you gain the difference of 1 BTC movement on the way down.
If you hold 1 BTC worth of USD, you can sell 3 BTC, so you gain 3x BTC movement on the way down.

Do not ask me why it is done this way on bitfinex. But you see how holding BTC in bear markets is a bad idea.
sr. member
Activity: 444
Merit: 250
I prefer evolution to revolution.
I have a strange error.

I sold on margin some 10 LTC on LTCBTC pair.
Then I sold 10 more.

But I am holding a long position on 20 on LTCBTC pair.

WTF?!?!

Did the buttons malfunction or something?
Is this error related to the one where you click sell, while "Market" is selected and your order gets placed as LIMIT instead?

Actually, I checked the history and it says "LTCBTC    -10.0    0.007852"
Is that a sell order? then why am I holding a long position?

I checked the last 12 days of offer history and yep... only negative numbers in LTCBTC, yet, I hold a positive position.

You little rascals!

The math says that you must have had 40 LTC to start with.  But I wouldn't doubt that the problem is with the display and that you started at zero and now have a short position.  They recently fixed a problem I mentioned with "available balance", so there might be some residual display errors.  Hopefully they aren't math errors!
full member
Activity: 595
Merit: 101
Chromia - Relational Blockchain

.......

Is this error related to the one where you click sell, while "Market" is selected and your order gets placed as LIMIT instead?

.........


How often does this error happen? How do you place a market order, is the only way to click sell, while "Market" is selected?
full member
Activity: 151
Merit: 100
I have a strange error.

I sold on margin some 10 LTC on LTCBTC pair.
Then I sold 10 more.

But I am holding a long position on 20 on LTCBTC pair.

WTF?!?!

Did the buttons malfunction or something?
Is this error related to the one where you click sell, while "Market" is selected and your order gets placed as LIMIT instead?

Actually, I checked the history and it says "LTCBTC    -10.0    0.007852"
Is that a sell order? then why am I holding a long position?

I checked the last 12 days of offer history and yep... only negative numbers in LTCBTC, yet, I hold a positive position.

You little rascals!
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
This site seems extremely confusing. Here is all I want to do.

I have 6 BTC I just deposited into my exchange account.

I want to sell those BTC for USD now and then in a couple days convert it all into BTC again and withdraw my BTC...how do I do this? All I see is $ numbers, no actual trading.
  • First, make sure your funds are in the Exchange wallet, not the Deposit or Trading wallets - you can transfer funds between them on the 'Manage Wallets' page
  • Then open up the Exchange tab from the main page. There's a couple of things to specify to enter an order - the Amount (6 BTC) in the box in the centre, the order type from the little dropdown menu on the right-hand side - to sell immediately to the best offer you'd want 'Market', to wait to sell only if/when there's someone willing to pay a price you specify you'd want to use 'Limit' then enter a price. The 'Stop' types probably aren't needed for your intentions.
  • Having entered your desired order details, click the big red button labelled 'Sell'
  • A few days later, repeat the process but enter the details on the left-hand side of the page and click the big green button labelled "Buy"
ah a visual explanation was needed here, didn't realized that. Good work. Cheers!!!
full member
Activity: 136
Merit: 100
This site seems extremely confusing. Here is all I want to do.

I have 6 BTC I just deposited into my exchange account.

I want to sell those BTC for USD now and then in a couple days convert it all into BTC again and withdraw my BTC...how do I do this? All I see is $ numbers, no actual trading.
  • First, make sure your funds are in the Exchange wallet, not the Deposit or Trading wallets - you can transfer funds between them on the 'Manage Wallets' page
  • Then open up the Exchange tab from the main page. There's a couple of things to specify to enter an order - the Amount (6 BTC) in the box in the centre, the order type from the little dropdown menu on the right-hand side - to sell immediately to the best offer you'd want 'Market', to wait to sell only if/when there's someone willing to pay a price you specify you'd want to use 'Limit' then enter a price. The 'Stop' types probably aren't needed for your intentions.
  • Having entered your desired order details, click the big red button labelled 'Sell'
  • A few days later, repeat the process but enter the details on the left-hand side of the page and click the big green button labelled "Buy"
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
This site seems extremely confusing. Here is all I want to do.

I have 6 BTC I just deposited into my exchange account.

I want to sell those BTC for USD now and then in a couple days convert it all into BTC again and withdraw my BTC...how do I do this? All I see is $ numbers, no actual trading.

I think what you need here is just exchange and not trading. So go to Exchange tab and put those 6 BTC for sale (of course on maximum price) and get your USD. And then hold on to this unless you decide to convert them to BTC, all you need to do is to buy BTC back from exchange (of course on cheap possible).
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 502
This site seems extremely confusing. Here is all I want to do.

I have 6 BTC I just deposited into my exchange account.

I want to sell those BTC for USD now and then in a couple days convert it all into BTC again and withdraw my BTC...how do I do this? All I see is $ numbers, no actual trading.
sr. member
Activity: 248
Merit: 251
Could somebody please explain to me why I am seeing -ve profit at this moment.

I sold 8 BTC on base price under $246.40 on Trailing Stop of $2 when price was $248.40 and now when price is like $246.41 I see -$7.99, I mean no matter what happens even if price goes down to $246.1 I still see -ve P/L. Why so ?

Please help me fast I want to understand this : what price will be good for my position.


Refresh the page
sr. member
Activity: 444
Merit: 250
I prefer evolution to revolution.
As you can see I had bought 11 btc on limit order with base rate of 228.83 and I placed short orders also of limit type on different rates.

1. Would trailing stop instead of limit order here made me better profit and how could I have achieved it.
A trailing stop SELL order may have made you some profit.  The logic of the trade is that it is a limit sell order at a price a certain amount below the highest price reached since the trailing stop was placed.  You enter the trade with the amount of distance you want to use.  A larger amount will require a bigger drop from the high.  Whether or not you'd get more profit depends on what the price did and how large a trail you choose.
2. Now price is $245 and say I set trailing stop sell order for $2 so does that mean my order will become active when price will fall to $243 and once its get active what will decide my profit price rise or price down and by how much price my order will be executed.
If the price doesn't go up from 245, but instead goes down (and maybe up and down, but never over 245) to 243, then yes, you will sell at 243 and that will determine your profit.  If it goes over 245, say to 247.10, then it will only have to fall $2 (to 245.10) for you to sell at that price (245.10 if the high was 247.10).
3. Same question like 2 but this time for trailing stop buy order.
If the price doesn't go down from 245, but instead goes up (and maybe down and up, but never under 245) to 247, then you will end up buying at 247.  If it does go down, say to 235 before ever recovering by $2 (to 237), then you will buy at $237.
I am missing a point here really and I need to understand that I can make profit even selling btc when I expect price to go low but then how can I make profit on short order by selling low, something doesn't make sense to me. Because I always thinks that I need to buy btc first beofre I can sell them and make profit when price is high, this whole idea of shorting when you got no existing long orders doesn't make sense to me.
Selling short means that you borrow BTC to sell.  If you don't have any BTC, then you need to have USD.  If you don't have USD or BTC, then you can't sell short.  If you do, then... Let's say you have 11 BTC.  You can sell short 11 BTC without borrowing (you borrow from yourself).  But with leverage, you can sell more, say 11 more for 22 altogether.  This means you've borrowed 11 BTC, and you will pay interest on it until you buy it back.  If the price goes up, you'll still pay interest, and take a loss when you buy it back for more than you sold it.

WARNING!  If you have 11 BTC and you sell 22 (your 11, plus 11 more that you borrowed), then you're using leverage and if the price goes up enough (they estimate the target price and call it "liquidation price"), then your position will be liquidated.  This means you'll buy 22 and pay for them from the proceeds of the (original) short sale, and since the price is higher now, you'll have to pay extra, and the extra will be generated by selling some of the 11 you had at first.
sr. member
Activity: 444
Merit: 250
I prefer evolution to revolution.
On the Withdraw page, the left part of the page has a table under which it is written, "This is your available balance. If you have limit orders, open positions, unused or active swaps, this will decrease your available balance. To increase it, you can cancel limit orders or reduce/close your positions."  The table indicates 0 for all columns of my Trading wallet.  To the right is my "Account Overview" for my Trading wallet, which shows 105.44 BTC.  I also have a short position of -14btc and two limit sells of 8btc each, for a total reduction of 30 btc in case all goes to hell.  So I should show about 75btc available.

Is this a bug, or is there some reason that my available balance in BTC is about 75 BTC short?

I sent this to support too, but I'm impatient :-).
kov
hero member
Activity: 492
Merit: 500
Can anyone help me with the formula to determine the price at which a margin call would be triggered for a series of open positions?

For example:


-5 BTC available for trading (16.67 BTC available at max initial leverage)

-Open a short position for 9BTC @ $250/BTC => 55.55% initial margin
-Initial margin call expected to trigger at $478.13/BTC

-Trade goes against me, up to $275/BTC

-At this point, I want to open a second short position, still anticipating a decrease in price. I want to determine two things:
1) What is the largest new short position I could open? Would it require a weighted average margin of 30%?
2) What is the new price at which I'd expect a margin call if I max out my leverage?


EDIT: Nevermind - figured out the calculation. You have to build in the loss from the original trade and act as if you reset with a new trade in the cumulative amount of T1 and T2 total units.
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