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Topic: Parity watch -> Who's next? - page 16. (Read 68224 times)

legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1005
March 30, 2013, 11:08:52 PM
#91
We can never know the true efficiency distribution of all miners, but if you take a straight line from zero to one, on a chart where you display efficiency of all miners, sorted by efficiency, you would get total surface of 0.5,  and if you start from an assumption that the most efficient miner is at 0.5, you would get total of 0.75 under the curve.  Thus my assumption for total miner efficiency of 0.5 to 0.75.   In practice, it could be higher,  but if it is lower, it would be a temporary situation.

I think you forget, many people are willing to mine at a loss due to the prospect of long term Bitcoin ownership.
Which is still a dumb idea.

Spend $100 in electricity and get 0.5 BTC, or spend $100 on Bitcoins and get 1.0 BTC.  The choice should be obvious.  Mining at a loss is never a good (financial) idea.
legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1077
March 30, 2013, 10:57:03 PM
#90
Read your linked post. I think you're disregarding one-time cost of the asic miner unit. With asic the one-time cost is the large factor, energy cost less so. At least for now.

So I'm guessing energy used for mining should be considerably less than $2 to $3 million when rate is at $1000/BTC.


Difficulty grows with total hash rate, it doesn't care about power efficiency per hash.

Once you have the hardware, it makes economic sense to keep mining as long as your costs per one Bitcoin mined are less then one Bitcoin.

And if your cost is, for example 0.3 coins per coin, it makes sense to expand (in a sense of buying new hardware).  And buying new hardware will increase difficulty up to the point, perhaps at 0.5, perhaps higher, where you stop expanding.

Those two incentives create a situation where you will always have some miners that are close to zero profit, and not very many of those that are spending 0.1 BTC to mine 1 BTC.

We can never know the true efficiency distribution of all miners, but if you take a straight line from zero to one, on a chart where you display efficiency of all miners, sorted by efficiency, you would get total surface of 0.5,  and if you start from an assumption that the most efficient miner is at 0.5, you would get total of 0.75 under the curve.  Thus my assumption for total miner efficiency of 0.5 to 0.75.   In practice, it could be higher,  but if it is lower, it would be a temporary situation.

Unfortunately electricity is not the only cost of mining. There are many costs associated with it. Some of these are minor (pun not intended), for example:
  • Storage
  • Tax
  • Maintenance

However, you are ignoring what is easily the second-greatest cost to mining: hardware depreciation. ASICs are useful for mining and only mining. With the current arms race, which is likely to continue, an ASIC unit becomes obsolete as soon as it can no longer mine efficiently enough to beat its own electrical (& storage and maintenance) costs. Over an ASIC's lifetime, its value shrinks until it reaches zero as soon as it starts losing money.

If miners behaved as you stated, the lifetime of an ASIC will be very short. Even assuming a conservative estimate of ASIC speed growth, the cost per coin should double every few months. How much an ASIC unit makes could be modelled with the equation:

Code:
Profit = 0.5 × (C−e) × d − $
 (C = initial gross earnings per day
  e = daily operation costs
  d = number of days until ASIC worthless
  $ = initial cost of the ASIC)

Miners, as a whole, will always get more ASICs as long as the profit is positive. Assume that we reach an equilibrium state, with buying a new ASIC equally likely to be profitable or unprofitable. Assuming the a conservative rate of growth (let's use 200 days because it's a nice round number), we can simplify this model thus:

Code:
0 = 0.5 × C × d − $
0 = 0.5 × C × 200 (log C − log e) − $
0 = 100C × (log C − log e) − $
$ = 100C × (log C − log e)
 (log represents to the base of 2)

Your number, "efficiency", is given as e/C. As C and $ should in theory be related proportionally, we can introduce a new constant Q = $/C. Our equation is then thus:

Code:
Q = 100 × [log (C/e)]
2^Q = (C/e)^100
(1/2^Q)^(1/100) = e/C
(1/2)^(Q/100) = e/C
 (log represents to the base of 2)

This equation points out that the efficiency constant will decrease with an increase in one-time cost of the ASIC. An Avalon ASIC costs ~120 BTC at market price and earns approximately 4 BTC every day, so the experimental value for Q is 30 days (note that the formula has units of 2x days on both sides; the right side has the value hidden after the substitution of d). Therefore:

Code:
e/C = (1/2)^(Q/100)
    = (1/2)^(30/100)
    = (1/2)^(3/10)
    ≈ 0.8

Therefore, miners will actually use significantly less electricity than they generate in BTC—and that's with a zero margin.
hero member
Activity: 634
Merit: 500
March 30, 2013, 10:42:44 PM
#89
We can never know the true efficiency distribution of all miners, but if you take a straight line from zero to one, on a chart where you display efficiency of all miners, sorted by efficiency, you would get total surface of 0.5,  and if you start from an assumption that the most efficient miner is at 0.5, you would get total of 0.75 under the curve.  Thus my assumption for total miner efficiency of 0.5 to 0.75.   In practice, it could be higher,  but if it is lower, it would be a temporary situation.

I think you forget, many people are willing to mine at a loss due to the prospect of long term Bitcoin ownership.
sr. member
Activity: 407
Merit: 250
March 30, 2013, 09:30:19 PM
#88
Read your linked post. I think you're disregarding one-time cost of the asic miner unit. With asic the one-time cost is the large factor, energy cost less so. At least for now.

So I'm guessing energy used for mining should be considerably less than $2 to $3 million when rate is at $1000/BTC.


Difficulty grows with total hash rate, it doesn't care about power efficiency per hash.

Once you have the hardware, it makes economic sense to keep mining as long as your costs per one Bitcoin mined are less then one Bitcoin.

And if your cost is, for example 0.3 coins per coin, it makes sense to expand (in a sense of buying new hardware).  And buying new hardware will increase difficulty up to the point, perhaps at 0.5, perhaps higher, where you stop expanding.

Those two incentives create a situation where you will always have some miners that are close to zero profit, and not very many of those that are spending 0.1 BTC to mine 1 BTC.

We can never know the true efficiency distribution of all miners, but if you take a straight line from zero to one, on a chart where you display efficiency of all miners, sorted by efficiency, you would get total surface of 0.5,  and if you start from an assumption that the most efficient miner is at 0.5, you would get total of 0.75 under the curve.  Thus my assumption for total miner efficiency of 0.5 to 0.75.   In practice, it could be higher,  but if it is lower, it would be a temporary situation.


donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
March 30, 2013, 09:04:43 PM
#87
how did you arrive at that figure?


I explained it here.  Just substitute $90 with $1000.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1707405

Read your linked post. I think you're disregarding one-time cost of the asic miner unit. With asic the one-time cost is the large factor, energy cost less so. At least for now.

So I'm guessing energy used for mining should be considerably less than $2 to $3 million when rate is at $1000/BTC.
sr. member
Activity: 407
Merit: 250
March 30, 2013, 08:42:20 PM
#86
how did you arrive at that figure?


I explained it here.  Just substitute $90 with $1000.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1707405






hero member
Activity: 634
Merit: 500
March 30, 2013, 08:34:45 PM
#85
Lulz, I think someone at Fox saw this thread: http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2013/03/29/digital-currency-bitcoin-surpasses-20-national-currencies-in-value

The whole article is pretty much one huge dump about everything bitcoin and only the first paragraph being relevant to the national currency thing, but funny none the less.

Excellent news!

If Faux News is dumping on bitcoin, then I know we're on the right side of history.

No dude, a dump about Bitcoins, not on them.
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
March 30, 2013, 08:20:15 PM
#84
1 BTC should get closer to 1000$, for parity with Mark Zuckenberg


If bitcoin gets to $1000, soon, all the miners together will burn trough $2 to $3 million in electricity every day, so you would need $2 or more millions in fresh money every day, just to keep the price of Bitcoin at the same level.  Who will put that kind of money on the exchanges every day, Zuckenberg himself?



how did you arrive at that figure?
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
March 30, 2013, 06:57:58 PM
#83
Lulz, I think someone at Fox saw this thread: http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2013/03/29/digital-currency-bitcoin-surpasses-20-national-currencies-in-value

The whole article is pretty much one huge dump about everything bitcoin and only the first paragraph being relevant to the national currency thing, but funny none the less.

Excellent news!

If Faux News is dumping on bitcoin, then I know we're on the right side of history.
sr. member
Activity: 407
Merit: 250
March 30, 2013, 06:36:54 PM
#82
1 BTC should get closer to 1000$, for parity with Mark Zuckenberg


If bitcoin gets to $1000, soon, all the miners together will burn trough $2 to $3 million in electricity every day, so you would need $2 or more millions in fresh money every day, just to keep the price of Bitcoin at the same level.  Who will put that kind of money on the exchanges every day, Zuckenberg himself?

full member
Activity: 128
Merit: 100
March 30, 2013, 11:29:58 AM
#81
Lulz, I think someone at Fox saw this thread: http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2013/03/29/digital-currency-bitcoin-surpasses-20-national-currencies-in-value

The whole article is pretty much one huge dump about everything bitcoin and only the first paragraph being relevant to the national currency thing, but funny none the less.

A journalist will pull a lead out of a monkey's bum if it gets them a paycheck at the end of the week.
hero member
Activity: 614
Merit: 500
March 29, 2013, 03:32:58 PM
#80
Back to Togo.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
March 29, 2013, 01:09:55 PM
#79
Lulz, I think someone at Fox saw this thread: http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2013/03/29/digital-currency-bitcoin-surpasses-20-national-currencies-in-value

The whole article is pretty much one huge dump about everything bitcoin and only the first paragraph being relevant to the national currency thing, but funny none the less.
full member
Activity: 280
Merit: 102
March 28, 2013, 11:09:58 AM
#78
Niger, not to be confused with Nigeria to the south:

member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
March 28, 2013, 11:07:06 AM
#77
I am waiting for the day when two pizzas will be worth a whole nation.

Well, according to ounce.me, the Pizza Index is currently $940,207.94.  Taking that as a sort of 'Pizza Market Cap' seems reasonable.  Perhaps Vladimir will add the PMC to his Parity Index.  At roughly 0.1% of the Parity Index, it's sort of a 'milliCap'.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1000
March 28, 2013, 07:29:20 AM
#76
I am waiting for the day when two pizzas will be worth a whole nation.
legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1077
March 28, 2013, 07:09:17 AM
#75
we could write a few nigerian letters meanwhile

Just pointing out that Niger and Nigeria are not the same thing. One from Niger is called Nigerien.
db
sr. member
Activity: 279
Merit: 261
March 28, 2013, 06:36:53 AM
#74
But why M1? Why not M0, since in Bitcoin there's no fractional reserve banking (Bitcoin M0 == M1). I think it's more reasonable... The "market cap" is the Bitcoin's monetary base times its unit price.
EDIT: The point I'm trying to make is that, currently, for Bitcoin, M0==M1==M2==M3, i.e., Bitcoin has no monetary aggregates since it has no fiduciary money. But if one day Bitcoin start having some fiduciary money, the so called "market cap" (number of issued coins X price) would represent Bitcoin's M0, not its M1. So I'd say it's more reasonable to compare it with countries' M0 (also called monetary base).

Bitcoin's M0 is already larger than that of Iceland and certainly many others.

The Bitcoin "market cap" is indeed the same thing as M0. But, because of its convenient nature, Bitcoin may never get much bank money. Fiat currencies on the other hand have most of their transactions made with bank balances. It may be fair to compare the money that is actually used in transactions, M0 for Bitcoin and M1 for fiat.
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 506
March 28, 2013, 06:32:31 AM
#73
Anyone else feel that tingly feeling?

It's probably just the pizza.
legendary
Activity: 1145
Merit: 1001
March 28, 2013, 06:11:21 AM
#72
I think a list of parity prices with payment processors would be useful (Square, Paypal, Visa, etc.).
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