[Poll] Should the minimum wage be raised? - page 4.

niothor

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Quote from: Schleicher on May 17, 2014, 12:26:43 PM

It has been decided that there will be a minimum wage of 8.50 Euro/hour in Germany next year.
There will be exceptions, like people that have been unemployed for a long time, or some internships.
Let's see if germany's economy will go down the drain.

Down the drain , of course not.
But not all the changes will be positive, and I think that the negative ones will be more and they will be the ones making the news.

But only time will tell ...

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: Schleicher on May 17, 2014, 12:26:43 PM

It has been decided that there will be a minimum wage of 8.50 Euro/hour in Germany next year.
There will be exceptions, like people that have been unemployed for a long time, or some internships.
Let's see if germany's economy will go down the drain.

That will accelerate the immigration from the new-EU states, such as Poland, Lithuania and Slovakia. â‚¬ 8.50 is almost a day's wage in these countries. And unfortunately, this is going to result in many native Germans losing their jobs.

practicaldreamer

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In the UK we have a minimum wage - but this effectively only applies to single people.

If a man/woman with a family is on minimum wage their income is topped up via state benefits. This means that state taxes are subsidising the private businesses that are paying wages below that which is deemed sufficient. You could say that Govt. taxes are providing the private sector with their profits.

Of course, if the subsidies (or top up benefits) were removed from business, and they were forced to pay the deficit (between what they pay now and a decent living wage) they would go bust - or they would ship out production to China, if they operated within a sector where that would be an option (manufacturing for e.g.).

Welcome to global capitalism.

Maybe the anti-tax lobby on BitcoinTalk might wish to take this problem on board ?

Schleicher

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It has been decided that there will be a minimum wage of 8.50 Euro/hour in Germany next year.
There will be exceptions, like people that have been unemployed for a long time, or some internships.
Let's see if germany's economy will go down the drain.

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: niothor on May 17, 2014, 11:17:54 AM

We have a country that flourished and with no workers abuse without a minimum wage at all - Germany.

During the 1980s, Germany (Federal Republic of Germany to be precise) was home to more than 2 million Gastarbeiter, most of them from Turkey, Spain, Greece, Morocco.etc. The German manufacturing industry was at its peak. But things began to change in the 1990s, when the Gastarbeiter started demanding citizenship and additional benefits associated with it.

niothor

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Quote from: u9y42 on May 17, 2014, 10:56:42 AM

Quote from: RCHumphrey on May 17, 2014, 09:47:56 AM

When price levels rise with wages, output declines and it would have hugely negative inflationary effects. Even small increases on minimal wages have been shown to have large effects down the line on unemployment and general shopping baskets.

One of the best things about America is the low minimum wages in certain states. Sure wish we had that in the UK.

I'm sorry, but this seems like the propaganda going around about the evils of raising the minimum wage; do you have any decent sources to back that up?

EDIT: because remember, we're talking about people that are already receiving the minimum wage; these people aren't going to save what little extra more they might get with an increase - they're going to spend it in their other basic needs. So, this is money that's going directly back into the economy, perhaps providing more business to the very guys paying the minimum wage as well, now that more people can afford their goods.

It's not propaganda.
We have a country that flourished and with no workers abuse without a minimum wage at all - Germany.

The whole minimum wage increase is an evil socialist propaganda

u9y42

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Quote from: RCHumphrey on May 17, 2014, 09:47:56 AM

When price levels rise with wages, output declines and it would have hugely negative inflationary effects. Even small increases on minimal wages have been shown to have large effects down the line on unemployment and general shopping baskets.

One of the best things about America is the low minimum wages in certain states. Sure wish we had that in the UK.

I'm sorry, but this seems like the propaganda going around about the evils of raising the minimum wage; do you have any decent sources to back that up?

EDIT: because remember, we're talking about people that are already receiving the minimum wage; these people aren't going to save what little extra more they might get with an increase - they're going to spend it in their other basic needs. So, this is money that's going directly back into the economy, perhaps providing more business to the very guys paying the minimum wage as well, now that more people can afford their goods.

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: RCHumphrey on May 17, 2014, 09:47:56 AM

One of the best things about America is the low minimum wages in certain states. Sure wish we had that in the UK.

The situation in the US is a bit complex. There are millions of illegal aliens there, who are ready to work for sub-minimum wage rates. So the industry is able to cut down on the costs. This is not practicable in the UK.

RCHumphrey

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When price levels rise with wages, output declines and it would have hugely negative inflationary effects. Even small increases on minimal wages have been shown to have large effects down the line on unemployment and general shopping baskets.

One of the best things about America is the low minimum wages in certain states. Sure wish we had that in the UK.

beetcoin

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Quote from: hilariousandco on May 16, 2014, 06:02:21 AM

Quote from: Elwar on May 16, 2014, 05:42:59 AM

Quote from: hilariousandco on May 16, 2014, 05:33:57 AM

Shall we abolish punishment for rape and murder as well and let people settle their differences the good old fashion way?

A cheap security service to protect yourself from such crimes would be more efficient for people initiating force against you.

Great, so we now have private mafias and personal armies roaming around who would be ten times worse than the police without no restrictions/laws in place to keep them in check. So I guess you're probably one of these people who wants a police and government and wants to live under the threat of a gun, but just as long as we can call them something else whilst having the choice to choose whether to pay them or not? I've had these discussions several times on here and they go nowhere, but I'll entertain your fantasy if you wish.

Quote from: Elwar on May 16, 2014, 05:42:59 AM

Quote from: hilariousandco on May 16, 2014, 05:33:57 AM

And for those that don't have a choice? What's the option? I guess they'll have the right to choose to be homeless and starve to death, right?

And that's a very snobby and elitist/condescending thing to say.

If you decide not to choose you still have made a choice. This is a huge world. You can work anywhere, there are jobs all over. Who are these people with no choice?

Go where the jobs are. Go where you can live on whatever wage is paid. I left the US several years ago, they are so business unfriendly. I would never start a business there.

Elitists look at individuals and try to decide how they should live and condescendingly believe they know what is best for other people. Let people live their own lives, stop being so elitist and condescending.

Except there are not jobs all over and some people don't have the means to travel the world to go where they can. There are never enough jobs for everyone so there's always people that get left out, but fuck the little people, right? Without minimum wage laws set etc, many places that hired unskilled workers would completely exploit everyone they could. Illegal immigrants would flock to all these employers who pay peanuts forcing everyone else out of a job, and then even more people who are willing to work for a little bit less would then force them out a job and the cycle continues until people are practically working for free.

m8, you can't win an argument against ancaps. they want complete hands-off, even if it means the bad guys can get control of the bureaucracy.

as it currently is in the U.S., the middle class is significantly underrepresented by our "government." continuing to mute the voice of the middle class is not going to help anything at all, because the wealthy will just continue buying out washington to get more money, power, and influence.

bryant.coleman

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$100 per hour? Already the manufacturing sector in the US is in serious decline, due to the import of cheaper goods from countries such as China. Any such move to raise the minimum wage will finish off the industry once and for all.

niothor

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Quote from: hilariousandco on May 16, 2014, 06:02:21 AM

Except there are not jobs all over and some people don't have the means to travel the world to go where they can. There are never enough jobs for everyone so there's always people that get left out, but fuck the little people, right? Without minimum wage laws set etc, many places that hired unskilled workers would completely exploit everyone they could. Illegal immigrants would flock to all these employers who pay peanuts forcing everyone else out of a job, and then even more people who are willing to work for a little bit less would then force them out a job and the cycle continues until people are practically working for free.

So , this is what happened in Germany?
I think it is not even close to your predicament Wink

PhydeauxLeChien

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Quote from: Elwar on May 16, 2014, 05:30:19 AM

Why work for those employers? Vote with your feet.

If you do not have that option, you obviously do not have skills that are of any value.

Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer to vote with my vote Cheesy

.

You said it yourself - some people have skills which are of low value. This will always be the case, and in your society those people would have less of a right to food and shelter than people who are lucky enough to have valuable skills. I believe this is wrong.

Elwar

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Quote from: hilariousandco on May 16, 2014, 06:02:21 AM

whilst having the choice to choose

Having the right to choose things as opposed to being forced...crazy idea huh? (hint: otherwise known as freedom)

Quote from: hilariousandco on May 16, 2014, 06:02:21 AM

Except there are not jobs all over and some people don't have the means to travel the world to go where they can.

Like those rich Mexicans that fight to get to the US to get a below minimum wage job? Here in Afghanistan many Pakistanis are shipped in to work getting paid around $5 per day. They come here and make those sacrifices for such high paying jobs. I have stopped working in the US because of what it has become and have so many more options with such a large world.

But I do know that a higher minimum wage and other socialist programs will help speed up the end of the US economy and its eventual reboot. I will ride this out from across the pond, keeping my money in bitcoins and hopefully help to rebuild afterwards if people learn their lesson. Or just leave it as just the place I grew up.

Kluge

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Minimum wage laws are only enforceable to a certain extent. Pushed too far, Walmart will eventually just hire "John Doe Cash Handling Services (DBA)" instead of John Doe and bypass the enormous mountain of employee regulations. -And I think that's great, because employee contracts are much more like wage slavery than the much more explicit and meaningful contracts for independent contractors, where your boss, Four-Fingered Jimmy, can't immediately fire you because you told him to go eat dog shit after he asked you to clean out the toilets (unless that's explicitly part of your contract).

hilariousandco

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Quote from: Elwar on May 16, 2014, 05:42:59 AM

Quote from: hilariousandco on May 16, 2014, 05:33:57 AM

Shall we abolish punishment for rape and murder as well and let people settle their differences the good old fashion way?

A cheap security service to protect yourself from such crimes would be more efficient for people initiating force against you.

Great, so we now have private mafias and personal armies roaming around who would be ten times worse than the police without no restrictions/laws in place to keep them in check. So I guess you're probably one of these people who wants a police and government and wants to live under the threat of a gun, but just as long as we can call them something else whilst having the choice to choose whether to pay them or not? I've had these discussions several times on here and they go nowhere, but I'll entertain your fantasy if you wish.

Quote from: Elwar on May 16, 2014, 05:42:59 AM

Quote from: hilariousandco on May 16, 2014, 05:33:57 AM

And for those that don't have a choice? What's the option? I guess they'll have the right to choose to be homeless and starve to death, right?

And that's a very snobby and elitist/condescending thing to say.

If you decide not to choose you still have made a choice. This is a huge world. You can work anywhere, there are jobs all over. Who are these people with no choice?

Go where the jobs are. Go where you can live on whatever wage is paid. I left the US several years ago, they are so business unfriendly. I would never start a business there.

Elitists look at individuals and try to decide how they should live and condescendingly believe they know what is best for other people. Let people live their own lives, stop being so elitist and condescending.

Except there are not jobs all over and some people don't have the means to travel the world to go where they can. There are never enough jobs for everyone so there's always people that get left out, but fuck the little people, right? Without minimum wage laws set etc, many places that hired unskilled workers would completely exploit everyone they could. Illegal immigrants would flock to all these employers who pay peanuts forcing everyone else out of a job, and then even more people who are willing to work for a little bit less would then force them out a job and the cycle continues until people are practically working for free.

Elwar

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I have traveled in Australia where the minimum wage is around $17. Everything was very expensive and services that are common in other countries do not exist (most restaurants do not have waiters/waitresses, you do much of the work yourself, young people having a hard time getting jobs, most small businesses run by the owner's family, etc.)

niothor

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Quote from: Elwar on May 16, 2014, 05:29:26 AM

Quote from: Ekaros on May 16, 2014, 05:19:09 AM

Yes, just consider what would happen to prices if wages of people working in labor-intensive and service fields would increase x10.

People losing their jobs, automation and robots for as many jobs as possible, even more jobs going overseas.

Welcome to McDonalds, may I take your order:

That looks kind of nice , at least it is more accurate that one worker i ran into which took 5 minute to get my order , asking me twice about everything.
Also , the main transport company in my city has two times more ticket sellers than drivers. At this point shouldn't people ask themselves if those jobs are really needed?

Elwar

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Quote from: PhydeauxLeChien on May 16, 2014, 05:48:37 AM

Quote from: Elwar on May 16, 2014, 05:42:59 AM

A cheap security service to protect yourself from such crimes would be more efficient for people initiating force against you.

Yeah, but if I have more money than you, I can afford the 'deluxe' security service with better weapons and more employees - they can easily defeat your security service.

Your family will chip in to help afford and even better service? Fine, in addition to my family's wealth, I will call in favours from my wealthy friends and allies to raise a 'security service' the likes of which the world has never known.

Congratulations, you just reinvented medieval Europe.

Medieval Europe did not have bitcoins and crowdfunding.

Works well in Detroit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqlVL26jrCA

PhydeauxLeChien

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Quote from: Elwar on May 16, 2014, 05:42:59 AM

A cheap security service to protect yourself from such crimes would be more efficient for people initiating force against you.

Yeah, but if I have more money than you, I can afford the 'deluxe' security service with better weapons and more employees - they can easily defeat your security service.

Your family will chip in to help afford and even better service? Fine, in addition to my family's wealth, I will call in favours from my wealthy friends and allies to raise a 'security service' the likes of which the world has never known.

Congratulations, you just reinvented medieval Europe.

Topic: [Poll] Should the minimum wage be raised? - page 4. (Read 4836 times)