Topic: PoW vs PoS (Read 893 times)

The same narrative repeated again. “Bitcoin POW is wasteful”, but in fact, POW the most ground-breaking part of the protocol. Cypherpunks before Bitcoin have tried to develop a censorship-resistant, decentralized currency. All failed because they lacked one elementary component = POW.

LOL!

Good riddance to bad luggage. I guess my valid arguments shut your mouth? Anyway, please don't come back after a month or two, 'cause you trolls like doing this once in a while. If you want to leave this toxic-cult-looking place make it official, don't return as a know-it-all deliverer who refuses to constructively counterargue.

ok well you go ride your manual bicycle from the 1800's and avoid any fuel/electric means of transport.

if you want to fear businesses that pay for electric to allow utility companies to upgrade power plants, you go stay away from anything electrical. work by candlelight instead.

you do realise when electricity is produced. its supposed to be used. if its not used. then it is a waste. electricity is not supposed to be produced and then put into a box and stored in a trophy cupboard.

i bet your the guy that hates the idea of electric cars. wasting electric just to get people to between work and home.
you sound like the kind of guy that wants free social security money for staying at home doing nothing.

..
maybe you simply think that bitcoin is not efficient because your still stuck in the mindset of CPU mining and thinking that bitcoin is mined using CPU's where the quadrillions of hashes is from quadrillion inefficient 2012 CPU's. not realising its only 1.6million ASIC's which each use the same power as a normal house.

so while having the wrong impression that bitcoin mining is competing against 1.3 billion population of china's need for electric. its actually more like 0.2% of that same population, thus not really even on the same demand scale as what chinese people use in their daily lives.

but hey. when all chinese(1.3billion) all have 2 electric cars per household. maybe that should be the time you book yourself into a mental health ward before you stroke out in a panic attack. or worse, have a mental breakdown at home, and when rescued by emergency services they see your a hoarder, where your house is full of batteries, and your sat in the corner muttering "must save electric, must store it, must keep it, dont take my electric hoard"

meanwhile. the rest of us will get on with our lives and use electricity. and pay for it to allow power plants to get upgraded.. as thats its purpose. to use electricity.

I can see the btc cultism is too thick for any reality to sink in.

So I shall leave you , to circle jerk yourselves in the pretense that useless geometrically growing energy waste is sustainable and anything not of your cult is crap.


 


FYI:
Just like your energy wasting bitcoin, your clueless btc cult wastes too much of another valuable resource my time.
So as the countries ban bitcoin, I shall now ban you from wasting my time with your cult drivel.

Good Day.
 

just because i talk generally about what most crap coins do. and you hav in mind your favourite crap coin that does something else but without realising im not psychic to know which crap coin you are favouring this week. does not mean i have not done my research. it just means i am not talking about your specific crap coin you have secretly in mind.

the transaction fee "burn" of your crapcoin is not a loss to miners. its a loss to people making transactions (normal users)
those staking coins to mine dont lose anything. its like a reserve. they vault their coin. sign a block, if they get to be the main signer they get the fresh mint coin, and even more then that they can take their stake out and keep that too.
generally speaking. though some crap coins dont just burn, but give the tx fees of all users to the miner that one as a bonus ontop of reward.

by having a PoS that burns users coins when they transact. the miner is getting minted coin. keeps his stake safe and now the network has less coin for users, making that miners coin more valued due to scarcity. without any cost to the miner.

so i can see why you love the idea of free money mining.. i see why you want effortless/workless/ lazy mining too.

but here is the thing. if a crap coin was to become popular. there would be less slices of the reward pie to share between miners. as there are only so many blocks and so many rewards to share between. so if a really popular crap coin had 1million miners, but was only making 200 blocks a day of 10 coins a block.. then 1million miners wont be elegantly split a daily slice of 0.002 each, instead the addresses with the most hoard will get most blocks meaning there will be some getting 10coins a block for multiple blocks. and hundreds of thousands of people getting nothing.

this then leads to those hundreds of thousands trying to pool their funds into an exchange wallet cold store and hope when the exchange wins a block due to large cold store hoard, the exchange will split the reward equally.

well i have not seen many, if any exchanges paying 'dividends', 'interest', rewards to its users just for letting an exchange hold their coin.. well not unless they are actually a ponzi..
so just dont expect to get free coin if your crap coin you favour was to become popular.
you are still going to end up with the same elitist problem you think bitcoin suffers from

and also, bad security, centralising funds. and crap value based on 100% speculation and not any real underlying cost

sorry but bitcoin has real value due to real cost. you know real work. real effort. and better security.
its alot easier to perform a chain re-org on a PoS coin than on bitcoin. the only reason you dont see it happen much on crap coins. is that they are crap and its just not even worth it.
thats PoS coins only advantage. staying so crap that no one wants to bother playing or messing with it

This has nothing to do with the mechanism, but with the monetary policy. Take, for instance, Monero. It will have a steady inflation after a while.

Less than 1% of ADA holders own the majority of the coins.
Less than 1% of ADA holders own the majority of the coins.
Less than 1% of ADA holders own the majority of the coins.

How many times do I have to say this? Why don't you respond to it? Besides, I repeat:  The mining pools don't own the hash rate, it's the miners. The miners mine the block header, they're responsible for not allowing the pool to accomplish a 51% attack.

It increases in security. The performance shouldn't change.

Vice versa: Can't it be your pocket talking about PoS? Supposedly, we speak objectively for each side.

No, it wasn't accurate. It was pure irony and revealed a little bit of hate against bitcoiners.

You keep speaking for PoW, but haven't mention the downsides of your mechanism. Again, why can't this happen in PoS? Why aren't there elites?

Cute.

No Franky, you don't get it at all.

Your lack of research on the capabilities of Proof of Stake is showing.
1.  Proof of Stake coins transaction fees can be burned, thus as coin transactions increase, this will act as a way to lower the total # of coins.

* Note another one of PoW failings, is the day when no new PoW coins are created , transaction fees of PoW coins have to skyrocket to offset the lost rewards*
Just another reason why PoS is superior to PoW in the long run.

If you have not been an early adopter of Proof of Waste bitcoin, do you really think, you be pushing a product that wastes more energy than a country with no increase in performance or security. I include security, because the same 4 mining pool operators (Bitcoin weakest link) are all that is stopping a 51% attack no matter what bitcoin energy waste.
I think you be more honest that that, if you did not personally have a large financial skin in the game on the PoW bitcoin side.  

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Tell all of the people too poor to own an ASIC warehouse, how they can make a profit mining bitcoin, and go into compete details so they can get as rich as Franky1.
Go ahead show them how many coins they can mine, but you might want to mention that the odds are they will lose money mining instead of earn, but dazzle away and create a new upper class elite, with the supposed mining btc and get rich shenanigans.  
* Not holding my breath. *

Not complex , accurate , you want rich elites to earn the rewards and the transaction fees and determine what transactions are included in the blockchain with no input from you whatsoever, sounds like a slave to me.

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The current Proof of Waste system is doomed to failure, as no country can handle a continued geometric increase in energy waste on a biyearly basis.
So all countries will eventually ban bitcoin PoW mining,
and what happens next.....
Then finally BTC lack of development team, claims to have found a solution to the Proof of Waste Dilemma.
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/microsoft-patent-application-crypto-mining-brain-waves

And that boys and girls is their plan to enslave your children's children for the next 10000 years.

Proof of Stake is the only shield against it.
Make your Choice , Freedom or Slavery, because the time of choice is almost here.  

Updated Future Defs:
PoW = Prisoners of Work
PoS = People of Sovereignty

When someone tries to have a dialogue with you, don't discourage them this way.

So is this all you have to say? Come on man, seriously.

A country? To ban a bank? Nah. Besides, banks are by nature, PoS. When did any government or bank announce their appreciation towards bitcoin during the last 13 years? And yet, it's #1. So, I guess the throng's opinion matters too.

I know people, more or less rich than I am who don't have money to stake the required amount and the yield return isn't that profitable at all. They mine bitcoin.

That's false. As I said, not every person has the required amount of money to stake. By the same reasoning, everyone can participate in mining too.

Says a supporter of a PoS cryptocurrency in which the 1% of its users own the majority of the coins. Yeah, that's not hierarchy at all. What to do? That's life.

That's complex.

And is that why he supports PoS?  

PoW is supposed to create equal. People in favor of the coin could contribute computation to get rewarded. PoS works by people staking their coin, no need to buy hardware for mining.
Both of them had pros and cons, but in terms of energy consumption, POS is more environment friendly.

i think i get it

tangentc is just jealous that some people work and put effort in and get rewarded for those efforts, and he just cant cope with not getting paid for doing nothing, so wants to fight and argue that bitcoin should change and reward leachers that dont offer anything to bitcoins security.

what he does not realise is in proof of stake, there is still only a set number of blocks made a day and only a set amount of reward per block. if a PoS coin actually became useful to a wide userbase, where the coin attained value. those 'stakes' no longer allow everyone to get paid.
(too many people fighting over limited slices of pie)

instead only a few hundred 'stakes' out of millions would get paid a day.
where those few hundred 'stakes' would be the ones with the highest value(rich/elite) stake in play.

leaving millions of average joe without a chance... basically the exchanges, with their cold store hoard would control the PoS coin network

thus creating the same paradigm tangentc cries about when he cries about the elitism of miners.

what he does not realise is that the elitism is not to do with asics or electric. its due to the popularity of the coin by having so many people wanting some, but so little opportunity to get some via the block creation process, whether it be pow or pos.

so far pos coins are crap coins so dont have much of a community to display this fight over the slices of pie. although some coins are showing that exchanges are doing alot of the block creation process and many small holders never get a chance.

if bitcoin did change to PoS, the elitism would not disappear. but what would disappear is bitcoins value.
after all if everyone could mine gold in their back yard for $1 using a spoon and a coffee filter, everyone would sell it for $2 to 2x profit. gold would not be worth over $1k.

bitcoins value is based on the acquisition costs. no one wants to sell at a loss.
pos coins have no 'cost' so anyone getting it would sell at any price. especially if everyone was able to get it for free.

but hey, tangentc does not care about value. nor security which would cost an attacker billions to fight to break the security. all he cares about is trying to get his hands on some free pie, no matter the consequence

You know drinking the btc cultist kool-aid is making you a nutjob.  

Keep ignoring the countries that ban Proof of Waste, it still will occur,
be sure and post when any country bans a Bank for threatening their power grid, until then realize your btc cult think is irrelevant in this reality.  

Why should miners make all of the money in Proof of Waste, when only the rich can be miners.
In Proof of Stake , everyone that participates in staking can secure and profit from the network.
In your Proof of Waste only rich elites that can afford muti-million $$$$ warehouses that waste energy with zero increase in btc performance or security,
if you prefer that , go ahead and slap a slave sticker on your back and wander the streets begging a rich person to be your master.  

 

Have you checked the carbon footprint of the current financial system? You keep trying to convince us that PoW is so futile, but fail due to lack of valid arguments. You also choose to support PoS by degrading PoW. And I repeat:  It has a strong reliance on renewable sources in contrast with almost everything else. That's due to the incentive of the miners to get away their expenses.

In other words, the system incentivizes you to not harm the environment for the common good.

But, why should there be a financial reward for this? Isn't your business to want or not want to confirm you have the correct chain; to verify the transactions? The reward for your contribution is the privacy you gain. Why should you make others' fortune less scarce for this (mainly) personal procedure?

ShortHand that has been used for years
N@S = Nothing at Stake

PoW will have to be banned by every country , no country has the resources to power 2 earths worth of energy drain.
Which is the problem with Geometric grow in energy waste and why PoW is doomed to be banned

XRP does not use PoW or PoS. Don't use your imagination to imply I said anything else.  

Because by having a financial incentive to run a full node, you guarantee that every transaction since the genesis block is attainable by anyone.
You seriously don't understand the value of Full Nodes.  I suggest you research them on your own, so you make more informed statements in the future.

What's N@S?

China's government haven't yet banned themselves. Do you seriously believe PoW will be forbidden by every location on Earth? It seems unrealistic, especially when the majority of the hash rate comes from renewable sources of energy.

At first, you say that XRP does not run with PoW neither with PoS. Afterwards, you use an “instead” and state that they rely on a consensus protocol. May I conclude you don't think PoW and PoS are consensus protocols?

And the storage becomes cheaper to possess... Besides, why should there be a financial incentive to run a full node? Running a full node is mostly a personal service and doesn't contribute to the network much.

I don't think this needs to be either/or. PoS has advantages over PoW, and energy savings are one example of this. Also, PoW as we see with bitcoin encourages the centralization of mining, since individuals can no longer mine for profit. In some ways, PoS is thus superior in its decentralization. However, I am a supporter and holder of bitcoin, and I believe it will remain the best form of digital gold for the foreseeable future.

Lol the climate change scam again where prominet   politicians fly 50km instead using a car or heaven forbid a bus for common people.
Has gold mining also been discussed or is it essential for survival to wear jewelry?
What about a quatzillion banks have heating and aircon on all year round.
I guess without car racing we have nothing to eat tomorrow.
And transporting bottled water from China to Europe or US must be done just so you have variate in supermarket.
Is it needed to fill the page with that political nonsens, or is it your entirely
Bitcoin halves every 4 years so a lot of miners have to shut down, uneconomic.

In my opinion, @franky1, describing the cost of mining bitcoin, which is supposedly equal to about $ 10,000, confused the cost of production of one bitcoin with its price. The high cost of a product is its negative quality. In addition, it is precisely against such high costs for its production that Swedish regulators have recently come out, having turned to the countries of the European Union with a proposal to prohibit the mining of energy-consuming cryptocurrency with the PoW algorithm as part of the fight against global climate change. It is quite possible that such a proposal will be supported by other states.

Actually if all of the bitcoin nodes keep doing that pruned node nonsense instead of running full nodes that hold all of the transactions from the Genesis block,
losing a large part of the bitcoin blockchain becomes a real issue in bitcoin's future.  

In PoS , Users have financial incentive to be full nodes, Thanks to Staking the Coins. 
In PoW, their is no financial incentive to be a full node. IE: a major flaw in BTC as the blockchain grows.

I know that, that junk is so good that they managed to permanently loose some of a nuke proof "blockchain", can not happen with bitcoin.
Even worse than PoS.

Nothing at Stake was a falsehood imagined by Greg Maxwell years ago.
Often repeated by those that have little understanding of how things really work.

Everyone that has researched proof of stake, knows N@S is nothing more than propaganda bullshit.
Which is why you see all the new coins ignore Proof of waste and use Proof of Stake.

Falsehoods in N@S are many and most of the time, different people even represent it in different ways,
the only consistent fact is all N@S believers are wrong.  

In the years , since the N@S myth was created , has Proof of Stake been decimated by it, Nope, because it is an lie.
In the years, since people have been warning that Proof of Work would be banned due to it waste,
China (formerly bitcoin's largest hash rate miner) has banned it and multiple other countries are talking about following suit.

So from the above you can see the reality is the banning of PoW is happening , and the N@S myth is nothing more than a lie for the unintelligent btc cult followers.  

 

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Actually No,
The Ripple (XRP) network does not run with a proof-of-work (PoW) system or a proof-of-stake (PoS) system.
Instead, transactions rely on a consensus protocol in order to validate account balances and transactions on the system.