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Topic: PoW vs PoS- Proof-of-Stake Might be the Winner here (Save the Environment) (Read 1324 times)

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Check out this article for an alternative point of view:

Proof of Stake or Proof of Work, What's the Difference?

Currently, Ethereum is considering the adoption of a new way to validate transactions within their networks reducing the energy consumption and achieving an ever greater number of transactions per second. As discussed in Cryptocoin and the Blockchain this new option is called proof-of-stake (PoS). However, the current consensus algorithm adopted by most blockchains, known as proof-of-work (PoW), has proven itself over time and the blockchain community is worried over the security risks that may arise from adopting PoS.

PoW From Thought to Implementation
PoW is nothing new. We are usually annoyed by it everytime we come across it when we surf the web. We are of course talking about the CAPTCHA, a smaller version of PoW implemented to prove that we are human. By you putting in the work of deciphering those ridiculous squiggles you are verifying you are in fact "human" and not a machine, When you insert the correct response you are validated to be a human and can carry on your merry way on the net.

In the blockchain, this is a lot more complicated. Within the blockchain network, there are many nodes interconnected with each other. The nodes that share processing power within this network can be called miners, they are the ones that do the PoW to validate the transactions and find the new hash for the next block in the blockchain. As they successfully complete each computation they are rewarded with crypto coins thus encouraging miners to keep mining.

Over time these computations increase in difficulty, meaning that the individual nodes that want to mine need to be more powerful to be the first to finish the PoW. Miners went from being individuals with a lot of processors in the basement to being giant mining warehouses with rows upon rows of powerful processors. For a moment this seemed to defeat the purpose of a decentralized crypto as the only ones with such a purchasing power were big companies. However, soon enough it became harder even for them to mine fast enough. Miners now pool together their processing power so that they as a collective can finish the PoW and share the rewards according to who had the most correct computations.

Power Hungry
Ethereum and Bitcoin are examples of mining operations that have escalated to absurd levels in terms of energy consumption, and mining pool size. For Ethereum it is estimated that the total mining costs ($2,277,959,012) are outweighing the annual rewards ($1,378,876,829) that could be had for mining. The Ethereum mining energy consumption seems to be close to the equivalent energy usage of Iceland.

Bitcoin, on the other hand, is estimated to still be profitable to mine as the estimated mining costs ($3,656,073,069) remains below the annual rewards ($4,769,978,010). Unlike Ethereum, Bitcoin's estimated energy consumption is similar to that of Austria. 

Since PoW will only become harder and require more processing power to complete it is only reasonable to expect that energy consumption won't get any better unless some incredible technological achievements are made in processing capabilities or clean energy production.

PoW can be vulnerable to distributed denial of service (DDoS) attacks, essentially hackers controlling 51% of the blockchain network. Hackers would be able to do any transaction they wished including double spend and erase the history of the ledger. Such attacks would be counterproductive, as it would devalue the cryptocurrency in question. However, it is concerning to see mining pools, currently, growing in size as miners obviously want to join the biggest mining pool to have a higher chance of earning rewards. At the moment on Ethereum it would take only 3 mining pools to join to reach 51%. Obviously, everyone in the pool would want to keep the status quo and earn rewards but the fact that the 51% mark is becoming achievable is at best unsettling.

PoS Removing the W
PoS throws away the work and essentially validates transactions based on how reliable the stake is. Within the network, miners would be obsolete as no computations are needed to solve the complex problem to be able to validate the next block. Instead, every node can stake a portion of their cryptocurrency in the network. The stake can be considered collateral; if the transaction were to be bad the
staker would see his stake reduced. A node that stakes is called "Staker" the more each node stakes and the longer they leave the stake untouched the better the chances of being the one chosen to validate the transaction, earning rewards.

Once the staker is chosen to validate they "forge" the new block. They put their stake on the line, validate the transaction and forge the new block. If the transaction is found to be a sham then the staker who forged the block will lose their stake and the right to partake in future forging processes. Ethereum is designing "Casper", which would do exactly this function to any charlatan node in the network, in preparation of their transition to a PoS algorithm.

With a new algorithm, there also comes a new and improved database, one of these new methods for PoS it's called sharding. The distributed ledger is shredded and shared amongst the entire network so that the entire network does not need to be involved with transaction validation. Sharding essentially speeds up the validation process as only the information that is needed is validated, rather than having to check with the entire network.

PoW is well-tested and used in many cryptocurrency projects. DDoS attacks on a blockchain employing this algorithm are impossible with today’s computing technology. However, the high energy cost, increased strain on the environment, associated adverse media coverage, increasing centralization of mining operations, and low transaction throughput will likely make it unviable in the long run. Communities are increasingly concerned about high energy costs of Bitcoin mining, and China is officially banning all such operations.

full article: https://www.dapp.com/article/proof-of-stake-or-proof-of-work-whats-the-difference
member
Activity: 637
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Proof of Stake a security leck? These people should name ONE coin (not exchange) hit by an attack. I dont know one.

There was never a coin with a large market capitalization using POS, that's why.

Quote
But I can name half a douzen relativly big coins attacked by an 51% hash attack.

And even Bitcoin attack is simple for a goverment. Or just for Bitmain. Think about they nearly control 51% of the pools. At the moment they dont do because it has no interest. But when BTC value is 50k $ then with a simple attack they can earn more money then they ever get with mining and seeling these "guess game" maschines.



Government cannot do a 51% attack on bitcoin, because it costs energy and hardware. It would cost a blackout.

Let's suppose u.s.a government woild like to a 51% on bitcoin. Just go to the nearest Walmart, buy 6 million s9, plug all of them on the same room and done right?

It needs a long time to buy hardware, put them in different locations...it's doable but much harder than a POS attack. Just buy some coins and boom.
When its SOOO easy to do, hacker would do it just for fun.

And you did not answer the Bitmain 51% problem :-)
member
Activity: 364
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Killing Lightning Network with a 51% Ignore attack

For the record ethereum so call PoS design is not PoS , it is some bastardization of Proof of Stake.
Eth PoS is not a true PoS implentations and only the unaware can't recognize that.

Technically we should call Eth PoS,  Eth's PoBS , as they are just ruining PoS to make it appeal to the PoW religious fanatics.



What are you talking about?
Ethereum casper is a transition from PoW to PoS. Every 50 mined blocks, there will be one minted PoS block.
HYBRID GARBAGE
This is not a bastardization, but a transition, as no one has ever tried POS with a real and big project before. This is something totally new.
Blackcoin was as high as $72 million dollars at one time, it is a true PoS coin and it has survived all of the fairy-tale security attacks.

Ethereum serenity will be full PoS. https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/Proof-of-Stake-FAQ
Don't believe all of the hype they feed you ,
it should say "Ethereum serenity will be Ethereum Special Customized Bastardization Version of PoS.


I believe you are just trolling around to make a +1 post for your chill coin...
And you be Wrong again!



I believe you been living in PoW land for too long,
Proof of Stake Coins such as Blackcoin , MintCoin , and several others all run a PoS only coins derived from the Peercoin original design.
Sunny King invented Proof of Stake,  trying to act like Eth is Proof of Stake is nonsense.

The casper protocol, the fact Eth devs actually pretend that N@S is a issue, when it is a fairly tale for the PoS illiterate to believe.
Now the Random hardware nonsense, Eth proof of stake will depend directly on their smart contract system ,
No Real Proof of Stake coins have the security risks that eth bastardization using smart contacts based PoS will have.

Eth is making a PoS Frankenstein creature that is not really proof of stake.
Sorry to burst your bubble.
Ethereum is not the True PoS coin you are looking for.
It is merely a hype driven over complicated smart contract hybrid and odds are when the security breaches to it happen.
Morons will all scream see PoS is unsafe, when the fact is PoS is Safe , but this bullshit Eth is doing is not.  Wink


I been studying True PoS coins for years, and their are many to choose from, Ethereum is not now and won't be later a True PoS coin.


Proof of Stake a security leck? These people should name ONE coin (not exchange) hit by an attack. I dont know one.

There was never a coin with a large market capitalization using POS, that's why.

Quote
But I can name half a douzen relativly big coins attacked by an 51% hash attack.

And even Bitcoin attack is simple for a goverment. Or just for Bitmain. Think about they nearly control 51% of the pools. At the moment they dont do because it has no interest. But when BTC value is 50k $ then with a simple attack they can earn more money then they ever get with mining and seeling these "guess game" maschines.



Government cannot do a 51% attack on bitcoin, because it costs energy and hardware. It would cost a blackout.

Let's suppose u.s.a government woild like to a 51% on bitcoin. Just go to the nearest Walmart, buy 6 million s9, plug all of them on the same room and done right?

It needs a long time to buy hardware, put them in different locations...it's doable but much harder than a POS attack. Just buy some coins and boom.

Government won't buy hardware to pull off a 51% attack,
they will capture Wu Family and Coerce him into performing one just as any Major Power like US, China , Russia or Europe could do.
* How many of the new design Antminers do you thing Wu's Company has been running before they start selling to the public,
 they been out competing the other PoW miners that buy ASICS from them for months, and now they sell them to the public starting today,
and you really don't think they have been profiting off of them at least all summer.  Tongue
* Oh and for the posers that think Wu does not have 51% thru multiple sources, the government can always procure his and then shoot tomahawk missiles into the other warehouses making Wu 100% not just 51%, that is the danger when your operation requires so much energy you can't hide it. *
PoS can be run off a laptop in a coffee shop and moved daily to secure it from direct military attacks like what can easily destroy bitcoin.


You lugnuts , always claim it is so easy to buy some coins and boom, put your money where your mouth is.
Pick any and I mean any PoS coin with a marketcap over $1 million dollars and show us how you break it.
Because I call you out on that it is so easy line, so put up or shut up.  Cheesy
Or did you just want to admit you're flaccid now.

Gmaxwell made up most of the PoS fairly tales, he is supposed to be well off financially ,
why don't you PoW lugnuts ask him to kill a PoS coin to prove he was not lying the entire time.
Disclaimer : Gmax is one of the mods in this very forum, I know you're one of the posers censoring my posts.
He could at least write a multi staking client to at least give his N@S Lie a smidgen of credibility.
legendary
Activity: 2352
Merit: 6089
bitcoindata.science
Proof of Stake a security leck? These people should name ONE coin (not exchange) hit by an attack. I dont know one.

There was never a coin with a large market capitalization using POS, that's why.

Quote
But I can name half a douzen relativly big coins attacked by an 51% hash attack.

And even Bitcoin attack is simple for a goverment. Or just for Bitmain. Think about they nearly control 51% of the pools. At the moment they dont do because it has no interest. But when BTC value is 50k $ then with a simple attack they can earn more money then they ever get with mining and seeling these "guess game" maschines.



Government cannot do a 51% attack on bitcoin, because it costs energy and hardware. It would cost a blackout.

Let's suppose u.s.a government woild like to a 51% on bitcoin. Just go to the nearest Walmart, buy 6 million s9, plug all of them on the same room and done right?

It needs a long time to buy hardware, put them in different locations...it's doable but much harder than a POS attack. Just buy some coins and boom.
member
Activity: 637
Merit: 11
I can only laugh at people that say we can mine Bitcoin with green POW.

They dont understand that the power can be used much better for other things.


Proof of Stake a security leck? These people should name ONE coin (not exchange) hit by an attack. I dont know one.

But I can name half a douzen relativly big coins attacked by an 51% hash attack.

And even Bitcoin attack is simple for a goverment. Or just for Bitmain. Think about they nearly control 51% of the pools. At the moment they dont do because it has no interest. But when BTC value is 50k $ then with a simple attack they can earn more money then they ever get with mining and seeling these "guess game" maschines.

legendary
Activity: 2352
Merit: 6089
bitcoindata.science

For the record ethereum so call PoS design is not PoS , it is some bastardization of Proof of Stake.
Eth PoS is not a true PoS implentations and only the unaware can't recognize that.

Technically we should call Eth PoS,  Eth's PoBS , as they are just ruining PoS to make it appeal to the PoW religious fanatics.



What are you talking about?
Ethereum casper is a transition from PoW to PoS. Every 50 mined blocks, there will be one minted PoS block.

This is not a bastardization, but a transition, as no one has ever tried POS with a real and big project before. This is something totally new.

Ethereum serenity will be full PoS. https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/Proof-of-Stake-FAQ

I believe you are just trolling around to make a +1 post for your chill coin...
member
Activity: 364
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Killing Lightning Network with a 51% Ignore attack
Is this necessary? Won't this only add an unnecessary overhead in costs for staking in a POS system? I believe this will not only make the whales become the perpetual powers in the network, this will also absolutely centralize the validators in the system because the hardware development and creation are not the same as POW hardware's race for total efficiency.

https://www.coindesk.com/ethereum-foundation-filecoin-back-plan-to-make-proof-of-stake-hardware/

Quote
Announced Thursday at Devcon, the annual gathering of developers in Prague, Ethereum Foundation researcher Justin Drake unveiled preliminary designs for application-specific integrated circuits, or ASICs, that will support an upcoming ethereum technology called the "beacon chain."

In essence, the beacon chain is a random number generator, and it's expected to form part of the next major iteration of the ethereum network – ethereum 2.0 – under an alternative, proof-of-stake consensus protocol (compared to the proof-of-work approach utilized today).

What are you complaining about , you want waste and inefficient design like bitcoin's proof of waste.
Eth founder is just doing his best to appease morons like you wind fury giving you what you want a crappy design with useless hardware to buy.


For the record ethereum so call PoS design is not PoS , it is some bastardization of Proof of Stake.
Eth PoS is not a true PoS implentations and only the unaware can't recognize that.

Technically we should call Eth PoS,  Eth's PoBS , as they are just ruining PoS to make it appeal to the PoW religious fanatics.

legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 6249
Decentralization Maximalist
Is this necessary? Won't this only add an unnecessary overhead in costs for staking in a POS system? I believe this will not only make the whales become the perpetual powers in the network, this will also absolutely centralize the validators in the system because the hardware development and creation are not the same as POW hardware's race for total efficiency.

https://www.coindesk.com/ethereum-foundation-filecoin-back-plan-to-make-proof-of-stake-hardware/
Interesting. Unfortunately, the article isn't very clear with respect to the reasons for the development, and why a specific hardware would be needed. It sounds a bit like "trusted hardware", but it seems to be something different.

Currently reading this article:
https://blog.trailofbits.com/2018/10/12/introduction-to-verifiable-delay-functions-vdfs/

However, there is also something that sounds positive:
Quote from: Coindesk
Looking at the work ahead, Drake struck a positive tone – particularly the prospect of designing and implementing the plan in an open-source fashion
It seems to be an open hardware project, so a centralization caused by a single manufacturer seems not possible, and also the hardware should not be expensive, so there would not be much risk of "minting centralization".

Edit: I read the article now. It seems Ethereum wants to achieve a system where a dishonest majority (a "minter cartel") cannot game the random number generator. For me, it seems that this goal is difficult to achieve from the start, as even Bitcoin is attackable if the majority of the hashrate is dishonest. From my understanding the problem VDF wants to solve is similar to the "selfish mining" problem in Bitcoin. It may be simply "overcomplicating" things.
legendary
Activity: 2394
Merit: 6581
be constructive or S.T.F.U



    I am not new in this forum , but still suffers to get merits. If you think i am capable enough , please tip me a merit. It will boost my speed.



    No wonder you are not getting any sort of merits.  not only because you believe that POS is a winner, but due to the way you try to present your idea.

    see I have never learned English writing in school , it's very rare to find english speakers where i live, I learned what i learned mostly online and from watching movies and shit like that ! . and one thing I have learned "For Free" is that whenever you try to compare something to something else ,you have to address both PROs and CONs of EACH. you can't say

    CONs of pow are ********************************

    so POS is a the winner ! . really?


    now back to the topic, the way i see it, the best chance that any POS project has is being  Hybrid PoW+PoS , that might actually work. ! . aside from that POS alone is bullshit at its best.

    and as for the environment Banks around the globe consume much more power than every ASIC/GPU/FPGA combined. and if you want to play that environment card, then there are many other more important issues you should try to solve before you talk about POW. start with Make-up  waste disposal    Grin[/list]
    legendary
    Activity: 2898
    Merit: 1823
    Is this necessary? Won't this only add an unnecessary overhead in costs for staking in a POS system? I believe this will not only make the whales become the perpetual powers in the network, this will also absolutely centralize the validators in the system because the hardware development and creation are not the same as POW hardware's race for total efficiency.

    https://www.coindesk.com/ethereum-foundation-filecoin-back-plan-to-make-proof-of-stake-hardware/

    Quote
    Announced Thursday at Devcon, the annual gathering of developers in Prague, Ethereum Foundation researcher Justin Drake unveiled preliminary designs for application-specific integrated circuits, or ASICs, that will support an upcoming ethereum technology called the "beacon chain."

    In essence, the beacon chain is a random number generator, and it's expected to form part of the next major iteration of the ethereum network – ethereum 2.0 – under an alternative, proof-of-stake consensus protocol (compared to the proof-of-work approach utilized today).
    legendary
    Activity: 2898
    Merit: 1823
    @WindFury,

    Guy your ability to block out what is right in front of you is sickening.

    PoS Holders can not dominate like a PoW Miners can, it is just not coded that way.

    How many Nodes do you run?

    It cost money to run Nodes, it is not free.  Plus those coins in the Nodes are not free,
    You purchased them or you mined them with PoW, but you have to run a node to compete to make more,
    and you have to sell some if you want to exchange it for other items.


    You admit bitcoin miners currently have perpetual power over you and have had it for over 2 years with no quick end in site.

    And you whine that PoS holders may possibility have that same power, when I have explained to you multiple times that they don't.

    That's it? The cost to be the perpetual power on the network is to run a node, or nodes if they want to Sybil attack the network.

    POW costs are very high. They are so high that it will force some "powers" in the network to fail. Watch Bitmain, its "monopoly" will not hold forever, not like the originators of a POS coin.

    Quote
    Just how big a moron are you?


    Not as big of a moron as the person who believes Zeitcoin is the one true Bitcoin killer. Hahaha. Cool
    member
    Activity: 364
    Merit: 13
    Killing Lightning Network with a 51% Ignore attack
    however due to the dormancy period No PoS coin holder has perpetual power over your transactions.


    What "dormancy period" are you talking about? Are you talking about having to wait a certain amount of confirmations before your coins can stake again? All one needs to do is use coin control and split their transaction into several different addresses, and recombine them when and if a UTOX gets too small. You can basically maintain the same staking weight perpetually, using only one node. Those with the most coins will have their weight affected much less after each stake than the little guys who only have a few coins to split.


    Peercoin dormancy period 90 days
    Tekcoin  dormancy period 30 days
    Mintcoin dormancy period 20 days
    Zeitcoin dormancy period  1 day  

    You think you have enough of any of those coins to maintain control for that many days over everyone else.

    What I saying is you can't block all of the transactions in a PoS network like you can in a PoW network.

    And you would need alot more than 51% to even try it.

    * IF a Bitcoin miner has 51% , he can basically find every single block in a row and therefore 100% control what transation are or are not included.
    * In a PoS network even if the holder had 70% , he still be unable to find every single block in a row and control the transaction like what a PoW miner can do.
    (The Dormancy period prevents constant control in PoS like what a PoW miner has.)

    FYI:
    The Dormancy period is the time before a block of coins is eligible to stake again after staking.
    Staking weight is never constant as coins using coin age , # of coins are multiplied by the time since last staked.
    So the more you split those coins into more blocks the less your chance of staking quickly.
    As far as the little guys go that can't afford alot of coins, there best option is to combine all of their coins in 1 block and then use coin age to multiple that amount so it can earn new coins.  And the little guy that can only afford a few PoS coins has a snowball chance in hell of affording to mine a bitcoin.
    PoS network have a greater degree of the Chaos effect protecting them , as you never know how many coins will be staking at a given time.



    Deleted Posts by ASSHATS MODS
    @WindFury,

    Guy your ability to block out what is right in front of you is sickening.

    PoS Holders can not dominate like a PoW Miners can, it is just not coded that way.

    How many Nodes do you run?

    It cost money to run Nodes, it is not free.  Plus those coins in the Nodes are not free,
    You purchased them or you mined them with PoW, but you have to run a node to compete to make more,
    and you have to sell some if you want to exchange it for other items.


    You admit bitcoin miners currently have perpetual power over you and have had it for over 2 years with no quick end in site.

    And you whine that PoS holders may possibility have that same power, when I have explained to you multiple times that they don't.

    That's it? The cost to be the perpetual power on the network is to run a node, or nodes if they want to Sybil attack the network.

    POW costs are very high. They are so high that it will force some "powers" in the network to fail. Watch Bitmain, its "monopoly" will not hold forever, not like the originators of a POS coin.


    Wow! you are just really so stupid , you can't comprehend what perpetual power really is.


    Ok , I am done talking to you, there is no hope for you.


    Enjoy your bitcoins and your servitude to Bitmain , which will never end.
    Keep thinking Bitcoin will cost $1 million dollars per coin and that it is not environmentally damaging to the world.

    You think your religious fanaticism to bitcoin will make you rich, now that is funny.

    Good Day Moron.  Smiley  


    Quote from: Bitcoin Forum
    A reply of yours, quoted below, was deleted by a Bitcoin Forum moderator. Posts are most frequently deleted because they are off-topic, though they can also be deleted for other reasons. In the future, please avoid posting things that need to be deleted.

    Quote
    @WindFury,

    Guy your ability to block out what is right in front of you is sickening.

    PoS Holders can not dominate like a PoW Miners can, it is just not coded that way.

    How many Nodes do you run?

    It cost money to run Nodes, it is not free.  Plus those coins in the Nodes are not free,
    You purchased them or you mined them with PoW, but you have to run a node to compete to make more,
    and you have to sell some if you want to exchange it for other items.


    You admit bitcoin miners currently have perpetual power over you and have had it for over 2 years with no quick end in site.

    And you whine that PoS holders may possibility have that same power, when I have explained to you multiple times that they don't.


    Just how big a moron are you?

    FYI:
    Bitmain will be your master as long as you own bitcoin.
    https://dailyhodl.com/2018/08/11/crypto-mining-king-bitmain-is-raking-in-huge-profits-every-quarter/
    Quote
    Bitmain currently dominates the mining sector.
    Bitmain is raking in huge profits every quarter.
    Bitmain also controls numerous mining pools.
    Conservative estimates by the accounting firm Bernstein have put Bitmain’s market share at 70%-80%.
    Bitmain currently owns or operates a number of the world’s largest mining pools. These include Antpool and BTC.com. The reclusive company also operates several cloud mining divisions in addition to these hardware-based mining pools. Hashnest, Suanlibao, and BW.com are three of the biggest cloud mining operations in existence today. All of them are controlled by Bitmain.
    Antminer rigs are now the industry standard.
    Bitmain has pioneered the shared data center business structure
    Bitmain is able to increase their profits even further by positioning their data centers in these regions.
    Bitmain operates subsidiary mining farms in Israel, Switzerland, Canada, and Singapore.
    Bitmain now controls the destiny of BTC in terms of development
    Experts put Bitmain’s network control at around 51%.


    Quote from: Bitcoin Forum
    A reply of yours, quoted below, was deleted by a Bitcoin Forum moderator. Posts are most frequently deleted because they are off-topic, though they can also be deleted for other reasons. In the future, please avoid posting things that need to be deleted.

    Quote
    @The Bitcoin Mods,

    Your Continued Censorship of my posts has exceeded my ability to ignore.

    You delete my posts with accurate information,
    You leave a Moron's post like wind fury untouched.

    So to hell with you and to hell with your free speech censoring bullshit.

    .
     Kiss


    * @Lauda, I was going to leave btctalk for good, Until I saw your endearing message in my trust score, because of your concerns , I am going to stay.  Smiley  Cheesy
    * Alert your minions the game is now afoot.*

    legendary
    Activity: 1806
    Merit: 1828
    however due to the dormancy period No PoS coin holder has perpetual power over your transactions.


    What "dormancy period" are you talking about? Are you talking about having to wait a certain amount of confirmations before your coins can stake again? All one needs to do is use coin control and split their transaction into several different addresses, and recombine them when and if a UTOX gets too small. You can basically maintain the same staking weight perpetually, using only one node. Those with the most coins will have their weight affected much less after each stake than the little guys who only have a few coins to split.
    legendary
    Activity: 2898
    Merit: 1823

    @ WindFury,

    Ok you want a coin picked for you by someone else,  You go with Blackcoin as your PoS Choice.

    PoS coins go dormant after they stake , No PoS holder can maintain dominance over a PoS network if his coins are dormant.
    This dormant period gives other stakers a chance to stake, Bitcoin PoW does not have a dormant period.

    Chinese miners which (Bitmain is 1) have ruled for over 2 years with ~70% ,
    Sorry no signs of them losing power whatsoever, in fact with the recent price failures of bitcoin to return above $10000,
    those Chinese miners are in a better position to not only maintain their % , but increase it.
    That is the advantage to getting in early, they already have the infrastructure and experience required.
    Enjoy that silly hope that they will be dethroned.  Cheesy

    But you support POS in which the originators, stakers, whales of the network are granted perpetual powers because it costs them nothing to process, validate, or to vote on the network's behalf.

    Quote
    In the meantime , Bitcoin Miner do have perpetual power over your money ,
    however due to the dormancy period No PoS coin holder has perpetual power over your transactions.
    If you can't grasp that , that failure of understanding is on you and no one else.

    There are costs in POW and will always be. Bitmain will not "dominate" mining forever. It is you who do not grasp the situation, especially the situation in POS.

    Quote
    To try and make you think , answer this:
    If a PoS holder never sells any of his coins , exactly where is the profit for him?
    What good is his ever growing % of coins, if he never exchanges any for worldly goods?

    As a monetary system, the creation of POS coins from thin air have no costs, staking them to maintan the network have no costs. Why should "they" be granted the right to keep their power perpetually for free?

    Quote
    Once you realize the answer to that,
    it becomes apparent the PoS holder will always sell a % of his coins which will decentralizes a PoS network.
    In Contrast to
    a PoW Network where the PoW miner can sell 100% of his coins and still keep centralized control over the PoW network using his ASICS.

    A Low Inflation PoS Design moves toward Decentralization or the PoS holder never profits.

    A PoW Design moves toward Centralization as only the elite rich can maintain it insane energy arm race.

    POS bears no cost to keep their power, POW bears costs and it is becoming more costly, especially for Bitmain now that competitors are coming in.


    Quote
    FYI:


    Zeitcoin? Good luck. It will NEVER replace Bitcoin.
    member
    Activity: 364
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    Killing Lightning Network with a 51% Ignore attack

    Quote
    If you are so stupid you believe going with a Low inflation PoS coin gives them perpetual power over you then

    1.  Because if they sell their coins, their so called perpetual power is diminished since they have to sell from their principle.

    They have perpetual power because it cost the originators nothing to stake. What gave them the right to keep power perpetually, and why should we grant it to them?
      
    Quote
    2.  You can stick with your Bitcoin , where the Few Elite Chinese Miners actually do have perpetual power over the network and it's users.
        (Funny how the fact you are literally the Chinese Miners bitch does not bother you in the least.)

    The "few" are going to be "many". Japan and South Korean companies are doing their own research and development in ASICs for POW. Bitmain will not "rule" forever, if that's what you believe. While POS originators and whales will perpetually have the power over the network and its users.


    @ WindFury,

    Ok you want a coin picked for you by someone else,  You go with Blackcoin as your PoS Choice.

    PoS coins go dormant after they stake , No PoS holder can maintain dominance over a PoS network if his coins are dormant.
    This dormant period gives other stakers a chance to stake, Bitcoin PoW does not have a dormant period.

    Chinese miners which (Bitmain is 1) have ruled for over 2 years with ~70% ,
    Sorry no signs of them losing power whatsoever, in fact with the recent price failures of bitcoin to return above $10000,
    those Chinese miners are in a better position to not only maintain their % , but increase it.
    That is the advantage to getting in early, they already have the infrastructure and experience required.
    Enjoy that silly hope that they will be dethroned.  Cheesy

    In the meantime , Bitcoin Miner do have perpetual power over your money ,
    however due to the dormancy period No PoS coin holder has perpetual power over your transactions.
    If you can't grasp that , that failure of understanding is on you and no one else.

    To try and make you think , answer this:
    If a PoS holder never sells any of his coins , exactly where is the profit for him?
    What good is his ever growing % of coins, if he never exchanges any for worldly goods?

    Once you realize the answer to that,
    it becomes apparent the PoS holder will always sell a % of his coins which will decentralizes a PoS network.
    In Contrast to
    a PoW Network where the PoW miner can sell 100% of his coins and still keep centralized control over the PoW network using his ASICS.

    A Low Inflation PoS Design moves toward Decentralization or the PoS holder never profits.

    A PoW Design moves toward Centralization as only the elite rich can maintain it insane energy arm race.


    FYI:
    Sidenote: PoW coins like Bitcoin allow the miners to choose transactions based on what fee price is payed,
    Approving or Denying transactions if you don't pay their current extortion rate of the day

    The Majority of PoS coins , charge a fixed low rate fee with no refusals or delays waiting approval from the staker,
    also the transactions are entered in the order of appearance not a random order like PoW, (where higher fees jump in front of the line.)

    The Standard PoS wallets don't have an option to refuse transactions,  they process all transactions in order by default.
    Just another reason PoS is superior to PoW. Increase fairness and reliability in transaction processing.

    FYI2:
    ZEIT for example can process Maximum Transactions Capacity ~12 million transactions per day Onchain
    Bitcoin Onchain Maximum Transaction Capacity even with Segwit is inferior to ZEIT transaction performance.
    legendary
    Activity: 2898
    Merit: 1823
    Any POS coin? Be specific.

    Plus why should we grant the originators of the, "POS coin that replaces Bitcoin", perpetual power over the network and its users?

    Any
    low inflation PoS coin,

    go look for one that you personally like and quit being a dumbass.
    (Low Inflation rates vary from 5% down to less than 1%, take your pick.)

    Any? Without consideration if that POS coin is really better than Bitcoin? Name one low inflation POS coin that could replace Bitcoin. I promise I won't laugh.

    Quote
    If you are so stupid you believe going with a Low inflation PoS coin gives them perpetual power over you then

    1. You are a dumbass , because if they sell their coins, their so called perpetual power is diminished since they have to sell from their principle.

    They have perpetual power because it cost the originators nothing to stake. What gave them the right to keep power perpetually, and why should we grant it to them?
      
    Quote
    2.  You can stick with your Bitcoin , where the Few Elite Chinese Miners actually do have perpetual power over the network and it's users.
        (Funny how the fact you are literally the Chinese Miners bitch does not bother you in the least.)

    The "few" are going to be "many". Japan and South Korean companies are doing their own research and development in ASICs for POW. Bitmain will not "rule" forever, if that's what you believe. While POS originators and whales will perpetually have the power over the network and its users.

    Quote
    3.  Stick with Fiat and your Government elected overlords.

    What? Hahahaha!


    Quote
    For people that want freedom, Proof of Stake is the only game in town , because it is the only one where you can still confirm your own transactions.

    "The only game in town"? Which cryptocurrency are we talking about? Cool
    member
    Activity: 364
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    Killing Lightning Network with a 51% Ignore attack
    Any[/b] low inflation PoS coin,

    go look for one that you personally like and quit being a dumbass.

    Is that how you chose your investments? Based on what you "personally like"?


    I choose mine on the coin specs and my own proprietary economic calculations without needing someone to hand hold me when I do so,
    (I also have not hid the fact my favorite is ZEIT, but others may prefer different specs.)

    I expect other investors to do the same, because at the end of the day it is their money and their choice.

    If they are too stupid to make up their own mind like wind fury, they really have no business in crypto speculation.

    FYI:
    When a person buys a Low inflation PoS coin , they gain power in that specific network , when they sell coins they decrease their power in that network,
    when you buy bitcoins or a PoW coin , you Gain NO Power in that network as transaction confirmation and fee price is always controlled by the miners.
    (Of which only the Richest Elite can afford warehouses full of ASICS and the insane energy waste that comes with them.)

    That's the problem. Whales can just buy PoS coins and control the nertwork.

    You cannot go to the walmart nearest to your house, spend 6 billion in S9 miners, plug all of them in the same plug in your bedroom and control bitcoin network.

    But it is much easier to buy coins and control a network.

    Additionally, PoW is proof of stake, because you are staking energy. You are staking something out of the system, and giving the energy you spend as a warranty that those transactions in a block are legit.

    On the other hand, PoS is not PoW. You are betting coins , which are from inside the system. It is a closed system.

    You are missing the point , Whales can Buy a PoS coin , but the Whales Have to Sell them to make a PROFIT.
    That act of selling decrease their control over the network immediately.


    When your Bitcoin Miner sells all of his useless bitcoins , he gives up No control of the network or it's transactions or fee structure whatsoever.

    Plus you PoW guys really seem to miss the point a Whale in PoS does not have Constant Power to block transactions where as  Miner Whales can block transactions indefinitely, where as in PoS , they can not.

    * Your PoW is proof of stake line is beyond nonsense, PoW is not staking energy , PoW is Wasting Energy
    Plus in a true Proof of Stake Network, their is a dormant period after staking, their is NO dormant period in PoW.
    (Their is No increase in transaction performance with PoW increased energy usage, only more Wasted Energy to accomplish the same limited transaction amount. Bitcoin is not secured by electricity as many foolishly believe , it is secured by the Chinese miners that dominate ~70% of the mining, no different than the past two years, when the energy requirement were much lower 2 years ago.)
    The Security in Bitcoin is Nothing More than the Collusion of a few Chinese Miners!
    The Energy waste is Just Waste nothing else!



    You are right PoS is a Closed System, (That is an advantage not a disadvantage.)
    that means you are literally more invested in it , than in any PoW coin, because you can always mine another coin with similiar algo.
    So if you do harm to your PoS network , you wipe out your entire investment where as a PoW miner can harm his network and just mine another coin.

    *IE:  Mr. Wu has just started refusing all segwit transactions in AntPool's Bitcoin Blocks ,
    this delays LN onchain redemption and increases the danger bitcoins being stolen thru the LN network, and their is nothing you can do to stop him.
    You could buy all of the bitcoins in existence and he would still be your Master as you are utterly dependent on him for transactions.
    If only a few others join him and they reach 51%, they can kill the LN network and their is nothing you can do to stop them.
    (Suggest changing Algo and see how far you get.)  Cheesy
    Since Mr. Wu is mainly support Bcash over bitcoin, his concern for the bitcoin/LN network is decreasing per day.
    If Bitcoin was a PoS only coin, he would never do the above as it could wipe out his entire investment,
    yet with PoW he can hamper bitcoin and care little as he is supporting bcash more.  Wink

    legendary
    Activity: 2352
    Merit: 6089
    bitcoindata.science
    Any[/b] low inflation PoS coin,

    go look for one that you personally like and quit being a dumbass.

    Is that how you chose your investments? Based on what you "personally like"?



    FYI:
    When a person buys a Low inflation PoS coin , they gain power in that specific network , when they sell coins they decrease their power in that network,
    when you buy bitcoins or a PoW coin , you Gain NO Power in that network as transaction confirmation and fee price is always controlled by the miners.
    (Of which only the Richest Elite can afford warehouses full of ASICS and the insane energy waste that comes with them.)

    That's the problem. Whales can just buy PoS coins and control the nertwork.

    You cannot go to the walmart nearest to your house, spend 6 billion in S9 miners, plug all of them in the same plug in your bedroom and control bitcoin network.

    But it is much easier to buy coins and control a network.

    Additionally, PoW is proof of stake, because you are staking energy. You are staking something out of the system, and giving the energy you spend as a warranty that those transactions in a block are legit.

    On the other hand, PoS is not PoW. You are betting coins , which are from inside the system. It is a closed system.
    member
    Activity: 364
    Merit: 13
    Killing Lightning Network with a 51% Ignore attack
    Any POS coin? Be specific.

    Plus why should we grant the originators of the, "POS coin that replaces Bitcoin", perpetual power over the network and its users?

    Any
    low inflation PoS coin,

    go look for one that you personally like and quit being a dumbass.
    (Low Inflation rates vary from 5% down to less than 1%, take your pick.)

    If you are so stupid you believe going with a Low inflation PoS coin gives them perpetual power over you then

    1. You are a dumbass , because if they sell their coins, their so called perpetual power is diminished since they have to sell from their principle.
      
    2.  You can stick with your Bitcoin , where the Few Elite Chinese Miners actually do have perpetual power over the network and it's users.
        (Funny how the fact you are literally the Chinese Miners bitch does not bother you in the least.)

    3.  Stick with Fiat and your Government elected overlords.


    For people that want freedom, Proof of Stake is the only game in town , because it is the only one where you can still confirm your own transactions.

    FYI:
    When a person buys a Low inflation PoS coin , they gain power in that specific network , when they sell coins they decrease their power in that network,
    when you buy bitcoins or a PoW coin , you Gain NO Power in that network as transaction confirmation and fee price is always controlled by the miners.
    (Of which only the Richest Elite can afford warehouses full of ASICS and the insane energy waste that comes with them.)

    * Also in a PoS network coins go dormant after staking which give others stakers an increased opportunity to stake coins and add transactions,
    there is nothing similar in a PoW network, in a PoW network their is no dormancy of ASICS to give others a chance. *
     
    legendary
    Activity: 2898
    Merit: 1823
    If Bitcoin adopts PoS or any other fancy protocol and
    there is even a smallest problem, the whole market will crash so spectacularly and probably never bounce back.

    Which should point out to an observing mind , how weak Bitcoin and PoW consensus truly are.
    A Massive Price drop can kill bitcoin due to it's insane input costs.

    A Massive Price drop in a low inflation PoS coin is nothing more than a buying opportunity to increase your staking capacity.  Smiley
    ie: PoS is superior to PoW in Survive ability.

    Haha. But you do not have a real answer on which POS coin will replace Bitcoin to become "the Bitcoin".

    The cryptocurrency that will replace Bitcoin as the numero uno cryptocurrency will NOT be a POS coin. When I say numero uno, I do not mean the highest in market cap but the most used, the most liquid, and the most considered to be the best store of value.


    Any Low Inflation PoS Coin can replace Bitcoin, take your pick.
    In Time, they will all be higher on CMK than bitcoin.  Smiley



    Any POS coin? Be specific.

    Plus why should we grant the originators of the, "POS coin that replaces Bitcoin", perpetual power over the network and its users?
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