Topic: PoW vs PoS- Proof-of-Stake Might be the Winner here (Save the Environment) - page 3. (Read 1343 times)

"This steam engine thing is just catching on..." or "Coal has just started to conquer"

K.

Networks would be more secure with POS than POW.

1.  POW opens your network up to technological advances that can disrupt your security.  

2.  POW market is as easy or easier to corner the market on than an actual coin (goes along a bit with tech advances, but there are other ways to do this as well... miners are HORRIBLY greedy people... DDOS a pool for 1 hour and everyone bails on that pool.)  When someone corners a POW markets mining power... you often can't tell because they divide the mining power up for the 'appearance' of decentralization and when they want to fuck you *poof*.  Over 73% of the Bitcoin POW is controlled by six 'separate' entities.  POW people argue "why would someone with that much mining power want to hurt their own coins?"  Well the same statement goes for the POS folks too and really the POS 'monster miner' has more to lose than the POW 'monster miner' because the POS value is directly tied to their 'monster miner'... whereas the POW whale could just be for lulz in between creating Atoms or something crazy.

3.  A ton of POW is based on criminals stealing computer power.  That crowd doesn't want that cash cow dead.  When you mine POW... you're competing against "electricity launders"/"computer power launders" that can easily afford $1 electric/comp power for 1 pennyworth of Bitcoin in return.  Switching major markets to POS would be a HUGE blow to these criminals pockets.

I could go on, but that's good enough.  I feel confident saying that I think I could get 80% of the Bitcoin mining network for 1 hour easier than I could get 80% of all the Bitcoins.  Bitcoin isn't going to change from POW to POS anytime soon though.

How fast history's clock is ticking in your stupid world 

PoW has just started to conquer and some fools believe that they've got a new alternative, sick.

POW should be a thing of the past.

The only people that want to hang on to it, are the people with overpriced paperweights in warehouses.

POW people have the worst excuses for disliking POS.  It's disgusting & retarded.

For myself, I have some hopes that in the long term PoS could be added to Bitcoin itself

As I wrote in the other post in this thread, the goal would be to "boost" security with no additional energy costs. This could already be achieved with 1 PoS block per 10 PoW blocks. It could be a solution for the times when block rewards - and thus, miners' income - are lower than now. While transaction fees could rise, I believe it's likely that the equation "attack cost / market cap" will be lower, and thus a "security booster" like PoS would be very helpful.

That would be interesting , a coin such as bitcoin changing PoW algorithms to avoid attack.
It would however not guarantee the attacker did not have enough resources in the other PoW algo to continue.

Consideratiing a PoS Attacker would need 90% of the coins to pull off the transaction blocking attack,
doubtful anyone would try as attaining 90% of a crypto coin can become astronomically expensive.
And doing so would completely destroy his entire investment with no alternate use for his coins.

And you can make the same argument for PoW, why would the miner block all transactions when it would cost him his investment.
And the answer is, he would not , unless he had an alternative coin he was going to mine and no longer cared about the original.
Also switching algo may be seen to investors as a lack of confidence and cause a worse price crash than the original attack.

Which certifies for PoW the Value is in the ASICS , while in PoS the Value is in the Coin.
  

IMO, still no point to combing the two, just add a reorg limit to a PoW coin, or use a checkpoint server as PoW become centralized in time anyway.

Myriad coin rans multiple PoW algo, and an attacker caused problem by focusing on 1 single PoW algo.
https://www.reddit.com/r/myriadcoin/comments/2ybp3w/groestl_attack_still_ongoing/
https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/47961/do-multi-pow-currencies-open-up-additional-attack-vectors-on-a-blockchain

To be clear about pos = piece of s... 

You can not insult POS. It is an idea not a person so it can not be insulted.

I don’t insult you for believing in POS I think you are mistaken to believe in the idea.

I do appreciate that you removed the insult directed at me.

I would love to see POS work I just don’t see how it will.
I don’t see regulation protecting pos coin holders.

I lost my interest on my ppc stake after I sold the coins before I got the interest.
I spent more then three days asking and talking to them about my stake issue and they did not have answers for me.

These are the people that developed the coin and basically they did not offer a solution to me.
So frankly I was disgusted with them.

Now BCI as a hybrid has clearly defined plan to pay interest.

They reward 10 coins to miners and hold 3 for stakers. from each block.
I get paid my interest weekly and I like the system.

POW = Proof of Waste

Proof of Stake => Environmentally Sustainable Consensus for Crypto




LOL,

Turn your ASICS off for 3 months, ie: don't run them at all , turn them off.
Then compare our profit margin.
Then you'll understand the word "constantly".

With a PoS coin , I can leave it off 3 months and earn the same interest.
I do lose the compounding effect , but unlike a PoW I would not lose everything.  


Hybrid coins are no good, bringing the failure of PoW to the efficiently of Proof of Stake is a useless gesture.
Run PoW or PoS and take your stand.  Hybrid PoW/PoS are a waste of time as the energy wastefulness is still included.
In Time , the PoW will have to be dropped, as HoboNickel is dropping their hybrid status and moving to PoS only.
You don't tie a superior consensus such as Proof of Stake to an energy wasting consensus such as Proof of Work.
That is like creating a car that get 1000 miles to the gallon for 5 minutes and then burns 1000 gallons to go 1 mile the next 5 minutes.
No Point to it.  
 

 As I said I could tag you but I won't.

You take it as a threat which as a typical internet troll that won't admit they are wrong would do.

back to my points which are true  answer them.

POS = piece of shit  it is basically a bank cd with zero protection

reply to that


you said "In Contrast, PoW users have to run their ASICS constantly as their performance/payout deceases per every 2 weeks,
by the end of a ~year, those ASICS are useless and entire new ASICS must be purchased."


based on this quote from you being true

how did this happen below
https://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/difficulty

Difficulty History

Date-------------Difficulty---------------Change-----Hash Rate
Oct 18 2018   7,182,852,313,938   -3.65%   51,416,859,634 GH/s my gear is earning 3.65% more this jump
Oct 04 2018   7,454,968,648,263   4.23%   53,364,744,228 GH/s
Sep 20 2018   7,152,633,351,906   1.90%   51,200,543,878 GH/s
Sep 07 2018   7,019,199,231,177   4.34%   50,245,385,237 GH/s
Aug 24 2018   6,727,225,469,722   5.29%   48,155,355,642 GH/s

Also My s-9's earn a profit from May /June 2016  until today Oct 2018

And you think Elite Mega Rich ASIC Miners care what you think?

The personal insult was removed as soon as I saw you used the word please,
if you bother to read the 1st page , you can see it was removed.

You however left your insult of PoS.

I felt no need to contact you directly , thinking you be smart enough to see it was removed.
My mistake.

*By the way the only copy of the insult is in your post, so delete your own post if you don't want to see it. *  





Cute Threat toward me,

Sorry , I don't care if you are Theymos.



Being fully green means you are not dependent on the Grid at all.
You are doing nothing more than offsetting your energy cost, which is what any business would do.

Your problem is this, those ASICS have to be replaced in a year or so and then you'll need more electricity so those solar panels will not offset your costs as much. NJ is actually a lousy place to be a miner , you be better off in an area with hydro electric and those prices are way better.
You be priced out of the ability to mine in a 2 or 3 years and then you done. PoW has no future for you if you can't keep up with the mega rich guys.
Falling into the increasing input cost hamster wheel is what destroys many farmers, PoW miners in your situation are on the same hamster wheel.

Good Luck you're going to need it.

the flaw is you think pos whales will cooperate.  people do not always do that  for instance  I asked you to retract a statement you made in this thread  which is a personal insult.  you choose to ignore my request.

On BCT  I am considered a whale or a major player. I could tag you for making that statement and not retracting it.  I won't  but here is my link to the solar array I am involved with


https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/solar-array-starting-to-look-good-1369207

it is on an old horse pasture with zero trees killed off.

It has been fully paid off due to last years coin runup

we use zero batteries
we are grid tied -- we sell  excess power in the day and buy back power at night
Contrary to your ignorant statement our actions lower the prices of power for our neighbors.

We sell power at 4 cents and buy power at 15 cents  that 11 cents is profit for the power company so we help to  lower the power companies cost of production of power which in turn lowers the customers power cost.

So while  wait for you retraction of that statement

Why don't you say I fucked up  when I made that statement it actually was an example of me not phil being ignorant and egotistical.

Based on my 20 years on the internet you will blow it off  and not do that.
Which is why
A} the world sucks in general
B}  and someone like you will always be "right"

Good luck with you life and that POS is better then POW belief system.


BTW I do think BCI  with a hybrid POW_POS setup is good as the   best of both setups can be used as a superior fusion of ideas.


also from your statement


"In Contrast, PoW users have to run their ASICS constantly as their performance/payout deceases per every 2 weeks,
by the end of a ~year, those ASICS are useless and entire new ASICS must be purchased."


based on this quote from you being true

how did this happen below
https://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/difficulty

Difficulty History

Date-------------Difficulty---------------Change-----Hash Rate
Oct 18 2018   7,182,852,313,938   -3.65%   51,416,859,634 GH/s my gear is earning 3.65% more this jump
Oct 04 2018   7,454,968,648,263   4.23%   53,364,744,228 GH/s
Sep 20 2018   7,152,633,351,906   1.90%   51,200,543,878 GH/s
Sep 07 2018   7,019,199,231,177   4.34%   50,245,385,237 GH/s
Aug 24 2018   6,727,225,469,722   5.29%   48,155,355,642 GH/s

It may be a PoW coin that switches to PoS succeeds bitcoin,
or
it may be a PoS coin that was PoS from the beginning.

The MarketPlace will choose which PoS coin replaces Bitcoin and when, not a single individual.

FYI:
Your confusion about perpetual power shows your lack of understanding,
if a PoS Staker sells their coins, they lose staking power, they can not profit forever without making sure their stake stays competitive.
You confuse high inflation PoS coins like Sprouts Classic, with other low inflation PoS coin.
High Inflation PoS coins will destroy themselves by hyper inflation that crashes them out of every market including dodge coin.
All you have to do is watch spouts classic to see this unfolding or go study the effects of hyper inflation.
The Succeeding PoS coin will have a lower inflation rate that does not exceed their daily demand of new coins in the marketplace.
And the Daily demand will be determined by the marketplace.  

FYI2:
I find it funny, how you worry about a PoS staker having power , but could care less that you have zero power in your Bitcoin.
Unless you are running a warehouse full of asics , you are a slave at the whim of the ASICS Miners, completely dependent on them to maintain the block chain.
Which if being a slave is your preferred choice, you might as well stick with fiat and your government overlords.
People that want the freedom to confirm their own transactions without an overlord's oversight Choose Proof of Stake.

This text is a plagiarism from:
https://unblock.net/cryptocurrency-consensus-algorithms/

He just changed identical words like "home" to "house" and imagine with "envision"

We have debated the same topic over and over again but the "POS proponents" have never given a suggestion which POS coin should "replace" Bitcoin.

Give us a suggestion of one POS coin that we should grant the originators perpetual power, and tell us why?

FTFY  

@Dr. Agon don't take it personally ,   PoS is better than PoW

PoW is more Shit than PoS

Proof of Work take prompts centralization, with more awful outcomes than PoS

It would be ideal if you let me introduce this by saying PoW is a energy wasteful design compared to PoS.
It enables the system to waste altogether more assets in mining.
This is bad since it does require the vitality necessities of a little nation to keep up the system.

So, when it connects with this present reality and financial matters it is less superior to Proof of Stake.

Proof of Work depends on a numbers session of who has the most hashing force
and who is rich enough to afford the new mining eguipment on a ~yearly basis along with insane energy costs that require Utility approval
while proof of stake depends on the cooperation of multiple stakers in order to keep the chain moving and safeguarded.
One stipulation of PoS, be that as it may, is that the wallet must be on the web.
To be on the web, it requires assets (hardware, electricity, internet connection. & that specific PoS coin (either purchased or produced by PoW originally).
Assets have a true expense.
PoS doesn't expect you to battle with hashing power, with PoS , the coins per block battle for the right to stake, an energy/cost efficient way of determining  the next block. PoS coin go dormant for a specified time period after staking , this gives its staking a fairness not included in PoW greedy & wasteful winner take all consensus.

Along these lines, bigger stakes, have better odds to be included in the next block than littler stakes.
However, due to the dormancy period little stakers still receive a chance to stake, especially if that PoS coin includes coin age which multiplies their little stake by the number of days since last staked, (meaning a little staker amount multiplied  by age could easily exceed a large staker coin per block).
To delineate this reality, envision you have a PC in your home with 1 ETH and your neighbor has an indistinguishable PC setup in his home however with 2 ETH. The vitality requires to run the two setups are actually the equivalent and the overhead hardware are the equivalent so the expense to run every one of your mining activities is the equivalent. In any case, your neighbor has 2x chances you do since he has 2x more ETH. Since each square will offer a similar mining reward paying little heed to your stake estimate, the normal esteem (odds*payout) for every unit of ETH is the equivalent, you and your neighbor both have the equivalent expected EV. In any case, in light of the fact that those machines have an expense to run, their profitabilities are unique. Your neighbor has 1/2 the expense for every unit of generation, as you.
Your neighbor spent double the expense of getting two ETH instead of one, and since their costs of PoS coins were double , they receive double benefit.
The Main thing to remember in a PoS coin , the coins hold more value than the hardware.

Given the way that the bigger stake holder winds up with a bigger net revenue, as a normal financial specialist, he would keep a greater amount of the mined ETH to expand his generation capacity. So a bigger stake holder would develop his ETH stake quicker than a littler stake holder.
(Unless the bigger stake holder decided to spend a portion or all of his holdings to purchase something else he deemed valuable.)
(This is no different than any business that tries to gain marketshare in their early years, putting more back into the business than taking out.)

In Contrast , a PoW Miner value is in the Energy Wasteful ASICS
He may sell all of his coins at all times and never decrease his ability to make more or keep his constant control of the PoW network ,
since his ASICS do not go dormant after finding a block like a PoS coin does.
Also a PoW Miner can mine multiple coins that use the same algorithm dumping whenever he likes,
while a PoS coin Staker has only the single coin and his entire investment is in it only, giving him a deeper interest in that single PoS coin than a PoW miner has.
IE: If Bitcoin dies tomorrow, PoW ASICS miners would just switch an alternate such a BCash.

In PoS, the expense of staking is easily maintainable, as stakers can leave a system offline for months , sync and then use coinage to stake in a few minutes and sell or hold their stake and repeat, over time getting a payout or increasing their stake to decrease the time needed for the next stake.

In Contrast, PoW users have to run their ASICS constantly as their performance/payout deceases per every 2 weeks,
by the end of a ~year, those ASICS are useless and entire new ASICS must be purchased.
Which puts them on a never ending hampster wheel of wasting energy & wasting money by constantly needing updated hardware and increased energy requirements. This would be ok if they were in a bubble, that had no effect of the rest of the world, but the sad harsh truth is their insane waste of electricity will affect your mother, father , brother, sister and friends, as their greed cause shortages and price hikes to those that can least afford it and have nothing to do with crypto.  


Bitcoin Mining has been centrailized to Chinese Miners for over 2 years.
The Little guy can not complete with the Mega Rich that have warehouse of ASICS.
The Little Guy dropped out of PoW years ago, with no chance to mining to become wealthy.

In PoS , Smaller stake holders can gather as one and move the majority of their wallets to a focal administration at that point share all mined ETH and running expenses as it would diminish the per unit cost of the activity.
Which is no different than small bitcoin miners running pools to increase their chances of finding new blocks.

In Conclusion,
In PoW the coin holders themselves have no power and are slaves to the overlords that run the ASICS Warehouse,
praying their ASICS masters charge them a low fee to make transactions.  

In PoS, the coin holders themselves have all the power
and are free to make certain their transactions can not be blocked by an overwhelming authority figure.  


** This is a Corrected Version of Dr. Agon Post from the previous page. (IMO) **
** Truthfulness added to correct Inaccuracies in the comparison of PoS & PoW.**

@OP don't take it personally , atfirst i thought PoS is better than PoW , but the consequences are bit more harsh.


Proof of Stake prompts centralization, with more awful outcomes than PoW

It would be ideal if you let me introduce this by saying PoS is a specialized enhancement past PoW. It enables the system to utilize altogether less assets in mining. This is great since it doesn't require the vitality necessities of a little nation to keep up the system.

So, when it connects with this present reality and financial matters it is no superior to Proof of Work.

Proof of Work depends on a numbers session of who has the most hashing force while proof of stake depends on a measurably reasonable round of whoever has the most crypto. Every ostensible unit of coin has parallel chances to be picked for its wallet to be the following mineworker. One stipulation of PoS, be that as it may, is that the wallet must be on the web. To be on the web, it requires assets (hardware, electricity, and internet connection). Assets have a true expense. Because of the reality PoS doesn't expect you to battle with hashing power, the vitality cost and hardware costs don't ascend with chances of being mined the following square (the mining lottery).

Along these lines, bigger stakes, have a less expensive expense to mine than littler stakes. To delineate this reality, envision you have a PC in your home with 1 ETH and your neighbor has an indistinguishable PC setup in his home however with 2 ETH. The vitality requires to run the two setups are actually the equivalent and the overhead hardware are the equivalent so the expense to run every one of your mining activities is the equivalent. In any case, your neighbor has 2x chances you do since he has 2x more ETH. Since each square will offer a similar mining reward paying little heed to your stake estimate, the normal esteem (odds*payout) for every unit of ETH is the equivalent, you and your neighbor both have the equivalent expected EV. In any case, in light of the fact that those machines have an expense to run, their profitabilities are unique. Your neighbor has 1/2 the expense for every unit of generation, as you.

Given the way that the bigger stake holder winds up with a bigger net revenue, as a normal financial specialist, he would keep a greater amount of the mined ETH to expand his generation capacity. So a bigger stake holder would develop his ETH stake quicker than a littler stake holder.

After a point, the expense of being a piece of the mining task would be too high with respect to the payout for little stake holders and they would reasonably drop out of the mining business, taking their wallets disconnected.

This prompts centralization of mining and the rich get more extravagant, quicker.

The option would be for littler stake holders to gather as one and move the majority of their wallets to a focal administration at that point share all mined ETH and running expenses as it would diminish the per unit cost of the activity.

This is called economies of scale. We saw this right off the bat in Bitcoin. The distinction with Proof of Stake is that it would require the majority of the littler holders to put their stakes in a similar area. This makes a helplessness not exclusively to hacking yet to outside jurisdictional power, for example, direction, tax collection, and so forth.

So one way or alternate, PoS will prompt centralization a similar way PoW does because of economies of scale. While it ends up diminishing the vitality cost to run the foundation of the system to a small amount of what PoW requires, it winds up presenting a lot of new hazard which cryptos aren't intended to deal with (i.e. outside direction and jurisdictional control).

Irrelevant, because the coins still go dormant no matter how many addresses are used.



It effectively , blocks all new transactions, meaning no one can spend anything on that blockchain.
That entire PoW coin usefulness as a payment system is utterly destroyed, plus the other miners ability to make new coin is also halted.
Since PoW coin miners input costs are so high, blocking them from receiving any new coins or transactions fees can be more devastating in a shorter amount of time.  Also an unspendable coin's price would crash on the markets in a few weeks.

I think this PoS/PoW debate is not a technical debate and does not belong to this subforum, development and technical discussion.

Efficiency has nothing to do with this subject. Once you consume less resources, you are lowering the attackers costs as well, lowering the security level. Security is not a product of protocols it is an equilibrium state of costs and benefits of attacks in which costs are set to be high enough to discourage attackers.  

We have debated it many times and enough is enough!

Please retract the statement in bold.

Of course you do, but you would be wrong.

Is Censorship of Thought something you actually want to stand up for, considering how much of your own posts have been censored.

Think about it.

In Proof of Stake Energy is Consumed, but it is not wasteful like bitcoin, it is efficient.
You are railing against efficiency in favor of blind useless wastefulness.

All Proof of Work coin have no choice but to become centralized, dominated by the elite.
In the end a successful PoW coin will always be dominated like Fiat by the Government Elite.

A Proof of Stake coin at least has a fighting chance at being decentralized, because to profit from it you have to sell some of it.
Yes, I know some PoS go insane with an interest rate, and all of those that do will be destroyed by their own inflation,
but not all PoS coins have insane interest rates, and those will be one that make the difference in the future.




@ETFbitcoin,
You seem reasonable.

But in the above post, there is a vulerabilty in PoW that does not exist in PoS.
In PoW, if someone has 51% , whoever owns that can block all new transactions constantly.
In PoS, even if I own 70% of the staking coins, I would be unable to block all new transactions constantly.
After Staking PoS coins go dormant for a programmed set of time

So restoring a blockchain on a PoW coin, would not stop the damage a 51% attack that blocked all new transactions could cause.
They would just keep blocking all transactions on the restored chain.

Another reason PoS is a superior consensus method to PoW.

And it is the point! A monetary system in which money funnels in itself is not a monetary system at all, it looks to me as a masterbation system rather.

PoS enthusiasm is very ridiculous, in PoW we consume energy to produce value but in PoS they do nothing and produce nothing, just a subjective idea of money like fiat without legitimacy and regulation.

I believe mods should ban PoS discussion in this subforum if not the whole forum. We are not interested.