Topic: PoW vs PoS- Proof-of-Stake Might be the Winner here (Save the Environment) - page 2. (Read 1329 times)

Bitcoins barely used.  I've been doing this for over five years and I have met less than ten people in my day to day life that has Bitcoin.


I absolutely agree with this.  I'm not saying Bitcoin should accept POS tomorrow.  I am saying that I think it's a valid option and I believe it's more "secure" than PoW, ESPECIALLY for small "dead" coins such as CLAM.  I think POS will be more interesting for Bitcoin after the block rewards mellow out and the miners start switching off BTC or the equipment is simply no longer being made.

We have had a HELL of a time decentralizing CLAM.  In fact, it isn't decentralized atm.  Just-Dice has like 95% of the "mining" network.

There is a Reason your Nickname is Dumbmad.  



Sorry the truth hurts you, but it would not if you were not a bitcoin fanatic that can't tell the difference between
a product and a deity.  

Yep, I was aware of ETH's "move". Didn't they already start with that process (with very, very low PoS block rate)?

I also think that if that works for a longer time, we could begin to consider a similar measure in Bitcoin.

A challenge would be the block reward for the PoS blocks (or approvals), but in Bitcoin transaction fee incomes are already so high that they could give incentives to "stake" (as there is no excessive electricity consumption needed). So no block reward may be necessary, and thus no change in the reward schedule / money supply.

This is what ethereum casper will do.
On the beginning there will be one block minted with pos for every 50 mined with pow in ethereum casper.

I think ethereum could do first. If they manage to survive....

More details here

https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/Proof-of-Stake-FAQ

I think an introduction of PoS as a "security booster" for Bitcoin (with a rate of 1/10 PoS blocks or so, or an "approval mechanism" where stakers must approve some PoW blocks), like I mentioned earlier, isn't very risky. As PoS minters could never "take over" history if they only can produce a block in a row (only in collaboration with 51% of the miners it would be possible) an attack would have barely any consequences. The only chance an attacker had, was to create additional stale blocks if he tries to double-spend 1-conf transactions.

Of course, it should be tested for at least a year or so. But the "worst case" would be that it wasn't effective at all because of the Nothing-at-stake problem, and then the PoW hashrate would guarantee about the same security level than before.

What maybe is true is that we'll never see that because of sociological or mass-psychological reasons.

I suppose weak minds like yours need all the help they can get.  



Other car manufacturers don't go to fordmodelatalk.org to advertise their cars.  They can stand on their own.  They have a significant advertising budget to independently market their products to potential customers.  They don't need to leech off Ford's success in order to be recognised.  

If you don't need Bitcoin, by all means leave and go to another forum to advertise your crapcoin.  That, or admit you're here to leech off Bitcoin's success because no one would pay your crapcoin the slightest hint of attention otherwise.  You can't stand on your own.  You don't have a significant advertising budget.

Very few altcoins are successful enough to market themselves to the public without resorting to their developers spamming here on the forums in a desperate and pathetic attempt to appear relevant.  You'd do well to remember that.  You need Bitcoin more than anyone.  It's the only way anyone could ever notice you and your crapcoin even exist.

Now are we done here?  Or did you need it in a blue font to comprehend it?

The Blue letters has been proven to increase the amount of the brain used when read,
I am literally trying to make you use more of your brain, when you see me use blue, trying to help you think and not repeat useless hype.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090205142143.htm

Daily Market movements are irrelevant in the long term evolution of a product.
Thinking a momentary price fluctuation matters is a fallacy.    
GIGO = Garbage In Garbage Out

No worries, ZEITCOIN will be around no matter what happens with the rest.
It can survive literally anything and it's network will march on.  

There are plenty of Proof of Stake coins for others to choose their favorite.


FYI:
Here is a comparison to show
Gaming Industry :  Atari was the 1st major player
Crypto  Industry :  Bitcoin was the 1st major player

Atari Lifespan   : 1972–1984
Bitcoin Lifespan: 2009-2022
*No Guarantee it will survive that long.*

A normal product lifespan is ~10 years before a newer faster more improved model take over.

By your false belief system , Atari should still be the #1 Game Console and yet it is not
Bitcoin will also not be the #1 coin by 2022.  

It is about product cycles not about false belief systems.

 

Any Low Inflation PoS Coin can replace Bitcoin, take your pick.
In Time, they will all be higher on CMK than bitcoin. 

Haha. But you do not have a real answer on which POS coin will replace Bitcoin to become "the Bitcoin".

The cryptocurrency that will replace Bitcoin as the numero uno cryptocurrency will NOT be a POS coin. When I say numero uno, I do not mean the highest in market cap but the most used, the most liquid, and the most considered to be the best store of value.

Ok then... I will let an image speak for me.

I believe this is just a coincidence, that all 1000 cryptocurrencies have the same graphic. THey are all crashing for different reasons, nothing to do with bitcoin.






yeah, you are acting very logically using those blue letters and ignoring market movements...

Good luck for you too. I hope you find the coin you are looking for =P

That is where you are misinformed, there are some alts that will skyrocket during a bitcoin crash.
Your problem is you think crypto depends on bitcoin, you are wrong ,
just as the car market does not still depend on the Ford Model A, crypto no longer needs bitcoin.
It has grown larger than a single coin.




If Fear is all you have as an excuse, then feel free to give up until PoW crashes and burns.

Proof of Stake can OutScale Bitcoin , about every Altcoin created after since Bitcoin OutScales Bitcoin. 

It is an irritant trying to have a logical conversation and all I get back is an emotional response of you are frighten, or devs are scared.   

Again 5 years and None of the Bogeyman fairly tales against PoS have occurred.
Look if you want to live in fear , your call.

There are plenty of PoS Devs that are not frighten by falsehoods spread by the bitcoin hype crowd.
They have done extensive research , and none of them have the slightest fear in the falsehoods put out by ignorant fearmongers.

I got better things to do than listen to how you are too fearful about PoS.

Those of us without fear shall push on, and the rest of you can hide and cower where you think it is safe.

FYI:
Fortune Favors the Bold , not the fearful!

Good Luck in your Course.

I don't think that would be a really great problem. Let's suppose Hash rate drops to Half (what would be a very pessimist scenario). Instead of blocks every 10 minutes, we would have blocks every 20 minutes (on average). No a problem at all in my opinion.

And at the most 4 weeks, difficult would be adjusted and mining would be decentralized again, and ASIC would be gone.


A drop to 1/5 of the hashrate (high unlikely, as if miners do not mine, what will they do to that equipment? They will have to mine either way, or the loss will be bigger).
This could be a problem, that would be easily fixed with a fork. Anyway, bitcoin could even though be mined with low hashrates for like 2 months and then the problem would be solved.

In such a situation, of a big price drop, every other alt would be completely worthless and there would be no reason to mine them.




In all those 5 years, nobody was also able to prove that PoS fairy tale work in great scale also.

Those are all very small projects compared to bitcoin. Ardor has 100 million USD marketcap, which is about 40 times smaller bitcoin daily volume...... Comparing Ardor to Bitcoin is like comparing United States economy to Malaysia`s.

Even Vitalik Buterin is affraid of running Casper Protocol in Ethereum, because he knows that problems will pop up when it is up and running. And there are many problems related to PoS economy, which were already mentioned in this thread.

Clarifying:

I am not talking about transactions fees , I am talking about the Bitcoin Market Price.

The production cost to make a Bitcoin is ~$3000 last I checked.
(This includes the warehouse/asics/Electricity input costs needed to Break Even.)

If the market price falls below that input cost of ~$3000, say only $1500.
That means with every new bitcoin block created the miners loses $1500 per coin which is $18750 (12.5 coins per block)
, and that is if the miner is selling every bitcoin he makes.

Which means the big players will hoard bitcoin and quit selling it as they have bigger pockets,
but even they can not hold out for long losing $2.7 Million Dollars per day or $81 Million Dollars per Month.

When too many miners drop out, the network Hash drops,
(having a difficulty only reset every 2 weeks is really a security vulnerability that has never been fixed, Most Alts reset Difficulty after every block.)
When the Hash drops too low , blocks are only found every few days, so the normal 2 weeks could take months to complete.
During this time almost no one will be able to get a transaction into the blockchain as onchain transaction capacity will be severely diminished.
Where you used to have potential of 144 x 1.7mb blocks full of transaction per day , you may only have 10 blocks or less.

Only chances for recovery would be
1.  The other miners start mining at a loss losing millions per day, doubtful as low prices is why they stopped.
2.  Wait months for it to work it out , doubtful everyone will switch to another crypto.
3.  The Bitcoin Dev team will have to reset the difficulty with a fork , which will cause a crises in confidence and hurt BTC price even more.


Do you now see the problem with having PoW insane input costs?
During even just a short market lull of 2 or 3 months,
bitcoin very survival comes into question, with no guarantee it will last long enough for the price to recover.

I hear alot of fear in your voice about Proof of Stake, it has been around since 2013 and so far none of the fairly tales about it's easy destruction have been accomplished by anyone.  Over 5 years and no one has performed a attack that destroys the Proof of Stake Consensus , it all been falsehoods and lies about how easy PoS is to destroy. PoW is only 4 years older and it's centralization & energy waste failure are paramount and undeniable to all but the bitcoin fanatics that never recognize any of it's failures  .

There are many PoS Only coins with multi-million markets caps and no one has been able to destroy one of them.  
Blackcoin / Ardor / and Multiple others

I don't agree, that's not how it works.

Transactions fees are defined by demand and supply, basic economics.
It does not have a direct correlation with price.

In December when btc price was high the fees were high (the opposite of what you aaid).
Fees were high because there was a peak in demand , nothing to do with its price.

And high fees didn't kill btc, wasn't even a threat to it .

Nobody knows what problems pos will bring, as it has never been tested with a decent project with many transactions per day

Which should point out to an observing mind , how weak Bitcoin and PoW consensus truly are.
A Massive Price drop can kill bitcoin due to it's insane input costs.

A Massive Price drop in a low inflation PoS coin is nothing more than a buying opportunity to increase your staking capacity.  
ie: PoS is superior to PoW in Survive ability.

DOGE, CLAM........

wtf man, wake up.

Do you want to compare bitcoin to those projects? Those networks are barely used.

Do you know how many transactions are made daily in bitcoin network, and how many are made daily in CLAM?
CLAM marketcap is 800 BTC, on rank 488. This means that the whole CLAM project, all CLAM coins, are worth 800 BTC.

CLAM is basicaly a testnet, to test crazy ideas. And that's it. a Dead coin.


Bitcoin needs to be more conservative. Bitcoin cannot risk those untested protocols, based in vague ideas like "Save the environment", or "Pos is the future", based on vague arguments.

If Bitcoin adopts PoS or any other fancy protocol and there is even a smallest problem, the whole market will crash so spectacularly and probably never bounce back.

So, go spread those ideas in Altcoins board. Bitcoin needs to develop itself slowly and safe.

Phew, you know all the right things to say to me!!!!!!!!!!!!



But really, probably not.  CLAM isn't suit & tie enough for this VC butthole licking economy.  

Then the community should beware and should save one eye for the CLAM, the future of money. The redeemer of the unbanked, the breaker of debt-chains, the Godcoin, the savior, the Bitcoin killer.

CLAM was a POW coin that switched to POS.

It's also POS based on POW.  The Clamcoin itself was 100% premined with POW, then distributed to BTC, LTC and DOGE addresses, and then POS was enabled.

It's not been overly successful though, but it hasn't been successfully attacked either.  You literally couldn't attack CLAM with all the computing power or fiat in the world today (maybe tomorrow after we all sold our shit to you and ran for the hills!   )

You are a bigger moron than I thought. Which POW coin would that be? Plus which POW coin that had switched to POS had any success? Ethereum could not even do it. Haha.


Then why should we grant perpetual powers to the originators of that system?