Provably fair games are not fair - page 2.

len01

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Quote from: adzino on January 14, 2023, 07:05:21 AM

Quote from: raybucks on January 11, 2023, 10:43:58 AM

I experimented many times ,
Changing client seed will reset everything ,

and

Let , I am playing keno , you can experiment this,
ok , so game is provably fair ,
I selected 10 keno number and I faced a long losing streak of 20 then It will always hit when by bet is initial amount or less than initial when i started playing keno
After long losing streak of 20 When i incresed the bet by only a few percent I will continue losing streak
I don't know this assumptiom is right or not
But i experimented 6 months
If you don't believe you can experiment i guarantee you will also face this type of fairness

Here is your problem.. You don't understand how provably fair games work. You think that if you place small bets, you win, but if you place large bets, you lose. That is true for casinos that have fake provably fair games and casinos that rig your bets. Play in a legit casino and you will be fine. Also just because you lost 20x in a row doesn't mean you will win in the next bet. I bet you don't complain after you win 100x in just two bets, do you? You are suffering from gamblers fallacy.

I agree with your statement.
gambling is just for fun and if you expect continuous wins or to get a lot of profit, it's better to stay away from gambling. because gambling is like betting luck and is not good for people who think online gambling will be fair and provide continuous wins.
things like that will happen often because the bookies will always win and if you get a big profit it's just a bonus and I think if you gamble on a gambling platform that has a good reputation it's fairer.

klidex

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Quote from: Aanuoluwatofunmi on January 14, 2023, 07:16:59 AM

Quote from: klidex on January 11, 2023, 11:00:37 AM

In fact, if we play on the most trusted and most popular casino sites, all the games are the same, there's no such thing as fair or unfair.
If Tita says it's fair, it's because we won and the dealer lost, was that fair for the dealer, and conversely, we can say it's unfair, if we lose and the dealer wins, is that fair for those of us who only bet and play.
So my personal response to the question you made is that all games are the same.
Fair or unfair depends on our own mindset not about the problem of the game or even the casino site.
Except if we play at a casino which is indeed a scam and fraud often occurs in it, then it can be said that it is unfair. However, the fault is not entirely with the casino or the players, but we are also wrong for choosing to play at a casino that cannot be relied on and trusted.

This is the truth which seems hidden to some that when it comes to casino gambling no bias actions or activities were being conducted in favour of one and against the other, we don't have fair and unfair games or casinos but what we have is the fair gamblers who thought about this could actually exist, this makes it more interesting to gamble because we know that what we give in is what we get in return, if you're gambling and it's not working then learn more and get improved.

Fair gambler?
Where is the evidence and statement that a gambler is fair.
Nothing is fair in gambling, even if someone says that he is always fair in every game he plays, then I say all of that is bulshit and there is no point.
Every gambler plays or bets with the aim of getting a win and their profits will do anything and in any way to be able to win.
If gamblers only put forward fairness and surrender in gambling without doing anything, they will only lose and lose.

michellee

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Quote from: Aanuoluwatofunmi on January 14, 2023, 07:16:59 AM

Quote from: klidex on January 11, 2023, 11:00:37 AM

In fact, if we play on the most trusted and most popular casino sites, all the games are the same, there's no such thing as fair or unfair.
If Tita says it's fair, it's because we won and the dealer lost, was that fair for the dealer, and conversely, we can say it's unfair, if we lose and the dealer wins, is that fair for those of us who only bet and play.
So my personal response to the question you made is that all games are the same.
Fair or unfair depends on our own mindset not about the problem of the game or even the casino site.
Except if we play at a casino which is indeed a scam and fraud often occurs in it, then it can be said that it is unfair. However, the fault is not entirely with the casino or the players, but we are also wrong for choosing to play at a casino that cannot be relied on and trusted.

This is the truth which seems hidden to some that when it comes to casino gambling no bias actions or activities were being conducted in favour of one and against the other, we don't have fair and unfair games or casinos but what we have is the fair gamblers who thought about this could actually exist, this makes it more interesting to gamble because we know that what we give in is what we get in return, if you're gambling and it's not working then learn more and get improved.

We can only assume that the casino we usually use as a place to gamble is fair so we won't really know what happened. And we shouldn't need to go into details about it either because if we play at a trusted casino, the casino won't cheat its players. After all, once a casino cheats and gets caught by some players, they will immediately lose their reputation and can't continue their business. I also never thought whether the casino where I played gambling was fair or unfair because I thought they must be fair regardless of whether it was right or wrong.

Bitinity

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Quote from: Saint-loup on January 14, 2023, 05:57:42 PM

Quote from: adzino on January 14, 2023, 07:05:21 AM

Here is your problem.. You don't understand how provably fair games work. You think that if you place small bets, you win, but if you place large bets, you lose. That is true for casinos that have fake provably fair games and casinos that rig your bets. Play in a legit casino and you will be fine. Also just because you lost 20x in a row doesn't mean you will win in the next bet. I bet you don't complain after you win 100x in just two bets, do you? You are suffering from gamblers fallacy.

He doesn't even need to change his casino if he doesn't trust its provably fair games anymore. He just need to play at live table games. There are usually presented to players in a way that don't allow any cheat from the house. Anything is shown on the screen to players, dealers are even showing their hands each time they touch something. But if he really thing this provably fair game from this casino is rigged, he should check results and open a scam accusation thread in the right section or in the Investigations section if he needs some assistance.

If he does not even trust provably fair system how can he trust a live table games while there is no way to prove the fairness of live games. Yes it looks live in a real time and looks no way for the house to cheat/rig the game in live game but we never know. I do not mean to offend live games, I say it in general based on OP's situation where he thinks that provably fair is not fair because he get more loses.

Saint-loup

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Quote from: adzino on January 14, 2023, 07:05:21 AM

Here is your problem.. You don't understand how provably fair games work. You think that if you place small bets, you win, but if you place large bets, you lose. That is true for casinos that have fake provably fair games and casinos that rig your bets. Play in a legit casino and you will be fine. Also just because you lost 20x in a row doesn't mean you will win in the next bet. I bet you don't complain after you win 100x in just two bets, do you? You are suffering from gamblers fallacy.

He doesn't even need to change his casino if he doesn't trust its provably fair games anymore. He just need to play at live table games. There are usually presented to players in a way that don't allow any cheat from the house. Anything is shown on the screen to players, dealers are even showing their hands each time they touch something. But if he really thing this provably fair game from this casino is rigged, he should check results and open a scam accusation thread in the right section or in the Investigations section if he needs some assistance.

Johnyz

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Quote from: Kakmakr on January 14, 2023, 03:51:57 AM

I think a lot of people does not understand what the "provably fair" statement on many of these sites mean to them. In my opinion it only says that you as a gambler, can test each and every bet on their site to see if it was done correctly or not. It takes your Client seed and the Server seed and the Nonce and it reverse the process to show that the calculation for the result was valid.

You also have to consider other factors like the RTP and Variance .....so it is not as easy as it sounds to determine if the games are fair or not, if you do not have all those inputs. (The Server seed are hidden to protect the casino)

Some site already state this on their platform and you can know this as well because some site disclose this data.
Knowing the fairness of the site might be one of the concern of many, but I think if you are dealing with the top site some gambler already done their research about it and you can just read it but to make sure, you can also do the same thing. Some site are not honest though, they claim their fairness is good but when someone find out that they are not, that is the only time for them to address that issue of fairness.

Aanuoluwatofunmi

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Quote from: klidex on January 11, 2023, 11:00:37 AM

In fact, if we play on the most trusted and most popular casino sites, all the games are the same, there's no such thing as fair or unfair.
If Tita says it's fair, it's because we won and the dealer lost, was that fair for the dealer, and conversely, we can say it's unfair, if we lose and the dealer wins, is that fair for those of us who only bet and play.
So my personal response to the question you made is that all games are the same.
Fair or unfair depends on our own mindset not about the problem of the game or even the casino site.
Except if we play at a casino which is indeed a scam and fraud often occurs in it, then it can be said that it is unfair. However, the fault is not entirely with the casino or the players, but we are also wrong for choosing to play at a casino that cannot be relied on and trusted.

This is the truth which seems hidden to some that when it comes to casino gambling no bias actions or activities were being conducted in favour of one and against the other, we don't have fair and unfair games or casinos but what we have is the fair gamblers who thought about this could actually exist, this makes it more interesting to gamble because we know that what we give in is what we get in return, if you're gambling and it's not working then learn more and get improved.

Taskford

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Quote from: adzino on January 14, 2023, 07:05:21 AM

Quote from: raybucks on January 11, 2023, 10:43:58 AM

I experimented many times ,
Changing client seed will reset everything ,

and

Let , I am playing keno , you can experiment this,
ok , so game is provably fair ,
I selected 10 keno number and I faced a long losing streak of 20 then It will always hit when by bet is initial amount or less than initial when i started playing keno
After long losing streak of 20 When i incresed the bet by only a few percent I will continue losing streak
I don't know this assumptiom is right or not
But i experimented 6 months
If you don't believe you can experiment i guarantee you will also face this type of fairness

Here is your problem.. You don't understand how provably fair games work. You think that if you place small bets, you win, but if you place large bets, you lose. That is true for casinos that have fake provably fair games and casinos that rig your bets. Play in a legit casino and you will be fine. Also just because you lost 20x in a row doesn't mean you will win in the next bet. I bet you don't complain after you win 100x in just two bets, do you? You are suffering from gamblers fallacy.

Maybe he played at not reputable casino that's why he rise up that conclusion about placing that bets and get the result he mentioned. If he played at reputable casino maybe all of this will be change and he might think about all is random then its all about luck. He maybe complain because he lost but I bet he will not say those words if he win.

adzino

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www.Crypto.Games: Multiple coins, multiple games

Quote from: raybucks on January 11, 2023, 10:43:58 AM

I experimented many times ,
Changing client seed will reset everything ,

and

Let , I am playing keno , you can experiment this,
ok , so game is provably fair ,
I selected 10 keno number and I faced a long losing streak of 20 then It will always hit when by bet is initial amount or less than initial when i started playing keno
After long losing streak of 20 When i incresed the bet by only a few percent I will continue losing streak
I don't know this assumptiom is right or not
But i experimented 6 months
If you don't believe you can experiment i guarantee you will also face this type of fairness

Here is your problem.. You don't understand how provably fair games work. You think that if you place small bets, you win, but if you place large bets, you lose. That is true for casinos that have fake provably fair games and casinos that rig your bets. Play in a legit casino and you will be fine. Also just because you lost 20x in a row doesn't mean you will win in the next bet. I bet you don't complain after you win 100x in just two bets, do you? You are suffering from gamblers fallacy.

Kakmakr

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Activity: 3542

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Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform

I think a lot of people does not understand what the "provably fair" statement on many of these sites mean to them. In my opinion it only says that you as a gambler, can test each and every bet on their site to see if it was done correctly or not. It takes your Client seed and the Server seed and the Nonce and it reverse the process to show that the calculation for the result was valid.

You also have to consider other factors like the RTP and Variance .....so it is not as easy as it sounds to determine if the games are fair or not, if you do not have all those inputs. (The Server seed are hidden to protect the casino)

piebeyb

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Bitcoin Trader

Quote from: len01 on January 12, 2023, 05:30:46 PM

I wasn't sure when I researched the casinos I trust to gamble at currently to see how fair they are and the games are.
but what is certain right now is that if I am comfortable on one of the gambling platforms and they have a support team that is quick to respond and has a board that is always active, I will be loyal and feel at home there. because almost all of the gambling games that I use today have been around for a long time and have a good reputation here, so I have never had any doubts about fair play.

OP had plenty of time to check which games were fair and unfair, but for me didn't have time to check it all I know is just playing free time with extra money then playing in old reputable casinos, anyway I know the bookie will always win regardless of whether it's a fair or unfair game, that's in my opinion

libert19

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Used to take provable fair meaning in wrong way until recently when came across one such comment.

Quote from: Saint-loup on January 12, 2023, 05:58:28 PM

I think you don't fully understand what provably fair means, and especially what it doesn't mean. Provably fair doesn't mean you won't lose money in the long run, it doesn't mean the house edge equals 0% or the RTP is 100%. In other words it doesn't mean the expected value is not negative. It just mean you can check the outcome and see if the casino has cheated you or not. So you shouldn't expect to not lose money by playing to these games, you will lose the same amount of money in the long run as a similar live game or a similar non provably fair game not rigged.

Meaning is apparent in word itself, 'provable' fairness and there is nothing to correct in op when meaning itself is taken for it's not.

Saint-loup

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Quote from: lionheart78 on January 12, 2023, 06:33:55 PM

As far as I know Server seed, Client seed and Nonce are to ensure that the outcome of the game is random and unbiased. You can check this link[1] how provably fair works.

Well, I think during the game there is no certainty of winning a certain number of high payouts in a certain number of spins, or any winning at all. The probability of hitting a high payout depends on the game's rules, and the odds are always set in favor of the house. It is also not guaranteed to hit a high pay in a certain number of spins. Since as stated the result in a provably fair game is always random. So we really cannot calculate or predict anything since provably fair game rule is always set to random result of bet.
[...]

I wouldn't say this method really ensures that the outcome of the game is truly random and unbiased, because the owner of the game can give server seeds and default client seeds with low entropy, not random at all, and even biased ones if he wants. Giving the hash of the server seed doesn't mean he just generated it from a TRNG, he is free to give a combination of server, default client seed and nonce already used, of which he knowns the outcome.
But at least it offers a way to avoid that by the ability to change the client seed for a truly random one, with a high entropy if the player cares about it.

lionheart78

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Quote from: raybucks on January 11, 2023, 08:45:56 AM

I am playing provably fair games for 1 year on sites like stake , bc game etc,
How provably fair games works :
Serverseed: this is provided by the casino itself;
Clientseed: this is provided by the browser you’re playing on;
Nonce: with each new hand, this variable increases by one so you can keep track of which hand is which by the end of the session.
Before you start you will get a hash of the serverseed, which is encrypted. This hash contains the entire game you’re about to play, so the casino cannot change it no matter what. Also, because it comes to you in an encrypted code, you yourself cannot calculate any results for the hands you’re about to play.

As far as I know Server seed, Client seed and Nonce are to ensure that the outcome of the game is random and unbiased. You can check this link[1] how provably fair works.

Quote from: raybucks on January 11, 2023, 08:45:56 AM

So you noticed something: in these type of games our client seed also used,
people think that provably fair means everything is random , but no ,random in numbers but not in streaks
Many people play to capture 100x 1000x , if we play on a fixed bet amount the probability is it will hit 100x in 100spins or more or less but around 100 spins when played on a fixed bet
snipped

Well, I think during the game there is no certainty of winning a certain number of high payouts in a certain number of spins, or any winning at all. The probability of hitting a high payout depends on the game's rules, and the odds are always set in favor of the house. It is also not guaranteed to hit a high pay in a certain number of spins. Since as stated the result in a provably fair game is always random. So we really cannot calculate or predict anything since provably fair game rule is always set to random result of bet.

An image on how provably games work:

[1] https://www.provably.com/

Oilacris

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Quote from: Saint-loup on January 12, 2023, 05:58:28 PM

I think you don't fully understand what provably fair means, and especially what it doesn't mean. Provably fair doesn't mean you won't lose money in the long run, it doesn't mean the house edge equals 0% or the RTP is 100%. It other words doesn't mean the expected value is negative. It just mean you can check the outcome and see if the casino has cheated you or not.

I agree on what you have said which he might pertaining about that provably fair about those odds on winning a particular sessions which it is really just pertaning on the bets whether they are fair or not
on each roll.It has nothing to do about HE or chances for you to win up.

For me it doesnt matter if i do lost on long run because it would really be just that standard because house do always win in the end.Im just really making sure that the site isnt
really making out those each roll to be rigged or not completely being fair. This do really sucks!

Saint-loup

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I think you don't fully understand what provably fair means, and especially what it doesn't mean. Provably fair doesn't mean you won't lose money in the long run, it doesn't mean the house edge equals 0% or the RTP is 100%. In other words it doesn't mean the expected value is not negative. It just mean you can check the outcome and see if the casino has cheated you or not. So you shouldn't expect to not lose money by playing to these games, you will lose the same amount of money in the long run as a similar live game or a similar non provably fair game not rigged.

len01

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Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform

I wasn't sure when I researched the casinos I trust to gamble at currently to see how fair they are and the games are.
but what is certain right now is that if I am comfortable on one of the gambling platforms and they have a support team that is quick to respond and has a board that is always active, I will be loyal and feel at home there. because almost all of the gambling games that I use today have been around for a long time and have a good reputation here, so I have never had any doubts about fair play.

klidex

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Quote from: dimonstration on January 12, 2023, 11:34:48 AM

Quote from: klidex on January 11, 2023, 11:00:37 AM

In fact, if we play on the most trusted and most popular casino sites, all the games are the same, there's no such thing as fair or unfair.
If Tita says it's fair, it's because we won and the dealer lost, was that fair for the dealer, and conversely, we can say it's unfair, if we lose and the dealer wins, is that fair for those of us who only bet and play.
So my personal response to the question you made is that all games are the same.
Fair or unfair depends on our own mindset not about the problem of the game or even the casino site.
Except if we play at a casino which is indeed a scam and fraud often occurs in it, then it can be said that it is unfair. However, the fault is not entirely with the casino or the players, but we are also wrong for choosing to play at a casino that cannot be relied on and trusted.

You probably fair being discussed here is about the seed used on the probably fair games and not the literal game fairness that you are describing. The OP pointing out that a casino is using a not probably fair method on determining results which makes him harder to win base on the probability.

In the end most of the bets is verifiable and it’s up to the user if they will believe on it or not. OP should just know the probability is sometimes far different on the actual outcome to avoid this kind of speculation. This type of probably fair games is working properly without any problem for a long time tho.

Each casino has its own game program in it and we as gamblers or bettors don't know if the game program at the casino is fair or not in determining a definite end result. If you want to get results and satisfaction in playing, you have to choose a trusted casino.
But what is clear is that every casino will not let gamblers continue to win in every game.
As a gambler, you can finalize these actions by using the right analysts and predictions in every game.
We and the owner or manager of the casino are both looking for profit so we have to do it somehow. That's why in my previous comments I said that in casino games there are no fair or unfair words.

wiss19

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I think many people already know that it's hard to win in gambling so they don't hope that they will win every session they make but they just play for fun using only the money that aren't really needed. There are people who play for profits but they don't always chase higher multipliers because they are also aware that it's not easy to get them but they just bet high on lower multipliers to be able to get a massive win. A 100x multiplier does not mean that we will get it at 100 spins. It also doesn't matter if you bet on fix amount or not. Anything here still works randomly.

Everyone is moving into online casinos, but you here are the opposite. You will move to offline casinos just because you think they are more fair. Well good luck about that but I still think that provably fair casinos are more fairer than those casinos who doesn't have it.

dimonstration

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Dimon69

Quote from: klidex on January 11, 2023, 11:00:37 AM

In fact, if we play on the most trusted and most popular casino sites, all the games are the same, there's no such thing as fair or unfair.
If Tita says it's fair, it's because we won and the dealer lost, was that fair for the dealer, and conversely, we can say it's unfair, if we lose and the dealer wins, is that fair for those of us who only bet and play.
So my personal response to the question you made is that all games are the same.
Fair or unfair depends on our own mindset not about the problem of the game or even the casino site.
Except if we play at a casino which is indeed a scam and fraud often occurs in it, then it can be said that it is unfair. However, the fault is not entirely with the casino or the players, but we are also wrong for choosing to play at a casino that cannot be relied on and trusted.

You probably fair being discussed here is about the seed used on the probably fair games and not the literal game fairness that you are describing. The OP pointing out that a casino is using a not probably fair method on determining results which makes him harder to win base on the probability.

In the end most of the bets is verifiable and it’s up to the user if they will believe on it or not. OP should just know the probability is sometimes far different on the actual outcome to avoid this kind of speculation. This type of probably fair games is working properly without any problem for a long time tho.

Topic: Provably fair games are not fair - page 2. (Read 581 times)