Re: Fees for full nodes? - page 2. | Bitcointalksearch.org

David Rabahy

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Quote from: David Rabahy on December 07, 2015, 12:37:36 PM

Quote from: Was on December 07, 2015, 11:03:57 AM

This is incorrect. Although, you can't incentivize the process of just running a node, you have to incentivize both the speed and volume of the process of tx propagation.

http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/172840/Bitcoin-Red-Balloons-SIGEcom.pdf

Read that paper to learn more

And here's a reflection on it by MIT Media Lab

http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/172840/Bitcoin-Red-Balloons-SIGEcom.pdf

Node incentives are important, and likely play a role in dismissing certain concerns regarding issues inherent in larger block sizes by potentially representing a more Symbiotic relationship between miners and the nodes that propagate the transactions to them.

Hmm, both links point to the same place.

Perhaps you meant http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/156072/bitcoin.pdf for the second.

David Rabahy

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Activity: 709

Merit: 503

Quote from: Was on December 07, 2015, 11:03:57 AM

This is incorrect. Although, you can't incentivize the process of just running a node, you have to incentivize both the speed and volume of the process of tx propagation.

http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/172840/Bitcoin-Red-Balloons-SIGEcom.pdf

Read that paper to learn more

And here's a reflection on it by MIT Media Lab

http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/172840/Bitcoin-Red-Balloons-SIGEcom.pdf

Node incentives are important, and likely play a role in dismissing certain concerns regarding issues inherent in larger block sizes by potentially representing a more Symbiotic relationship between miners and the nodes that propagate the transactions to them.

Hmm, both links point to the same place.

Was

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Activity: 75

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We are Satoshi.

Quote from: -ck on December 02, 2015, 07:05:14 PM

You can wish all you like but there's absolutely no way to confirm a full node really is a full node and not just faking it. If full nodes were to get paid, then one could spoof as many full nodes as they like and get paid for each of their fake nodes. To prove they're full nodes you'd have to invent some kind of "proof of work" and add it to some kind of blockchain - congratulations you've invented mining and an altcoin blockchain.

This is incorrect. Although, you can't incentivize the process of just running a node, you have to incentivize both the speed and volume of the process of tx propagation.

http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/172840/Bitcoin-Red-Balloons-SIGEcom.pdf

Read that paper to learn more

And here's a reflection on it by MIT Media Lab

http://web.media.mit.edu/~cebrian/p78-tang.pdf

Node incentives are important, and likely play a role in dismissing certain concerns regarding issues inherent in larger block sizes by potentially representing a more Symbiotic relationship between miners and the nodes that propagate the transactions to them.

icezer0z

full member

Activity: 144

Merit: 102

Reading this thread just influenced me to better understand how to support Bitcoin. Been mining but that's like playing the lotto.

I have a Node setup now

75.187.165.159:8333 (dynamic)

and i am setting up one in NY (brother is on a military base)
>remoted in to his PC

mohsin qureshi

member

Activity: 98

Merit: 10

I am pretty sure that if we can address node incentivization, we need a better incentive for users to run nodes instead of relying solely on altruism". Then we will have an easier time putting concerns about raising the block size at rest. The solution could present a Symbiotic relationship between nodes and miners.

kano

legendary

Activity: 4634

Merit: 1851

Linux since 1997 RedHat 4

I'm still wondering what 3rd world internet country people live in and say they can't run a full node?

I live in Aus and the internet here sux so bad I think I must be in the 3rd world.
I pay $110/mth for speed: 8Mbit down and 1Mbit up (with a data limit up+down of 1Tbyte)
I'm broke ... I'll admit it Tongue

I get by on that with all the net I use and I also run:
2 full nodes at home, one for my wallet and one for the pool wallet.

I run 'a few' full nodes on the net for the pool.

I gotta wonder about comments further up linking to reddit saying they can't run a full node ...

bitsolutions

sr. member

Activity: 261

Merit: 257

Quote from: 2112 on December 02, 2015, 07:18:35 PM

Quote from: -ck on December 02, 2015, 07:05:14 PM

To prove they're full nodes you'd have to invent some kind of "proof of work" and add it to some kind of blockchain - congratulations you've invented mining and an altcoin blockchain.

Why altcoin? It is more like p2ppool, but instead of shares for mining one would get shares for proven transaction propagation.

That's a bit hard to do when their are things like pseudonode.

oldbute

jr. member

Activity: 59

Merit: 10

Bitnodes uses a scoring system https://bitnodes.21.co/nodes/leaderboard/#peer-index. Not sure how close that gets to identifying full nodes.

What about a lottery system instead of guaranteed payment? Only way I can imagine this working is as an Etherum contract so it is verified how the registration and payouts work.

Some organization would need to fund it like Bitnodes did with incentive program, or you could have weekly/monthly entries. Costs xxx bitcoin to register your node (IP and payout address). Your node has to have a certain PIX score before you can qualify. i think that would be interesting and may motivate some people to setup a node. Lot of people like gambling

tspacepilot

legendary

Activity: 1456

Merit: 1081

I may write code in exchange for bitcoins.

Quote from: -ck on December 02, 2015, 07:05:14 PM

You can wish all you like but there's absolutely no way to confirm a full node really is a full node and not just faking it. If full nodes were to get paid, then one could spoof as many full nodes as they like and get paid for each of their fake nodes. To prove they're full nodes you'd have to invent some kind of "proof of work" and add it to some kind of blockchain - congratulations you've invented mining and an altcoin blockchain.

As far as I can tell, this point by -ck is sorta a showstopper for the idea of paying full nodes. As he says, unless we could guarantee people aren't cheating, surely people would take advantage of that. There may indeed be some way to prove this, but I think it's definitely a requirement going forward.

-ck

legendary

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Ruu \o/

Quote from: 2112 on December 02, 2015, 07:18:35 PM

Quote from: -ck on December 02, 2015, 07:05:14 PM

To prove they're full nodes you'd have to invent some kind of "proof of work" and add it to some kind of blockchain - congratulations you've invented mining and an altcoin blockchain.

Why altcoin? It is more like p2ppool, but instead of shares for mining one would get shares for proven transaction propagation.

p2pool is an alt chain of its own and it has miners. Bitcoin nodes don't mine though.

liuxihua

newbie

Activity: 2

Merit: 0

Quote from: Was on December 01, 2015, 09:11:41 PM

Quote from: David Rabahy on November 25, 2015, 04:35:28 PM

From the Bitcoin-core Debug Window Peers;

73.179.230.242:59060
via x.x.x.x:8333

Direction Inbound
Version 70002
User Agent /Satoshi:0.11.2/
Services NETWORK
Starting Height 237292
Sync Height Unknown
Ban Score 0
Connection Time 10 h 4 m 39 s
Last Sent 5 s
Last Received 38 s
Bytes Sent 1 GB
Bytes Received 3 MB
Ping Time 336874 ms
Time Offset 1 s

That is a prime example of a peer I would like to charge for providing my full node services to it.

Read "Red Balloons" by Zahar et al

nuli good

2112

legendary

Activity: 2128

Merit: 1073

Quote from: -ck on December 02, 2015, 07:05:14 PM

To prove they're full nodes you'd have to invent some kind of "proof of work" and add it to some kind of blockchain - congratulations you've invented mining and an altcoin blockchain.

Why altcoin? It is more like p2ppool, but instead of shares for mining one would get shares for proven transaction propagation.

-ck

legendary

Activity: 4088

Merit: 1631

Ruu \o/

You can wish all you like but there's absolutely no way to confirm a full node really is a full node and not just faking it. If full nodes were to get paid, then one could spoof as many full nodes as they like and get paid for each of their fake nodes. To prove they're full nodes you'd have to invent some kind of "proof of work" and add it to some kind of blockchain - congratulations you've invented mining and an altcoin blockchain.

Was

member

Activity: 75

Merit: 14

We are Satoshi.

Quote from: David Rabahy on November 25, 2015, 04:35:28 PM

From the Bitcoin-core Debug Window Peers;

73.179.230.242:59060
via x.x.x.x:8333

Direction Inbound
Version 70002
User Agent /Satoshi:0.11.2/
Services NETWORK
Starting Height 237292
Sync Height Unknown
Ban Score 0
Connection Time 10 h 4 m 39 s
Last Sent 5 s
Last Received 38 s
Bytes Sent 1 GB
Bytes Received 3 MB
Ping Time 336874 ms
Time Offset 1 s

That is a prime example of a peer I would like to charge for providing my full node services to it.

Read "Red Balloons" by Zahar et al

Was

member

Activity: 75

Merit: 14

We are Satoshi.

I believe that if we can address node incentivization, like Satoshi suggested, "[I suspect] we need a better incentive for users to run nodes instead of relying solely on altruism". (IN AUGUST 2015) Then we will have an easier time putting concerns about raising the block size at rest.

Perhaps the solution could present a Symbiotic relationship between nodes and miners, that would help with concerns regarding the propagation of larger blocks.

was

btc_enigma

hero member

Activity: 692

Merit: 569

Full nodes need to get paid. Pruning can be definitely done to reduce costs. We do also need to encourage non pruned nodes as they are needed to help newer nodes to join the network

With blockexplorers like blockchain.info giving problems. I actually think it would be a good strategy to turn your full node into a blockexplorer. We can have a distributed network of blockexplorers and I think people would pay to use the blockexplorer / the API(having low downtime)

https://github.com/priestc/moneywagon is a good initiative to develop a universal blockchain API

David Rabahy

hero member

Activity: 709

Merit: 503

From the Bitcoin-core Debug Window Peers;

73.179.230.242:59060
via x.x.x.x:8333

Direction Inbound
Version 70002
User Agent /Satoshi:0.11.2/
Services NETWORK
Starting Height 237292
Sync Height Unknown
Ban Score 0
Connection Time 10 h 4 m 39 s
Last Sent 5 s
Last Received 38 s
Bytes Sent 1 GB
Bytes Received 3 MB
Ping Time 336874 ms
Time Offset 1 s

That is a prime example of a peer I would like to charge for providing my full node services to it.

tl121

sr. member

Activity: 278

Merit: 254

Quote from: mezzomix on October 19, 2015, 09:04:25 AM

It seems that the XT support is much lower than 50%. Maybe there will be no move to XT.

XT nodes were aborted stillborn by small block terrorists.

tspacepilot

legendary

Activity: 1456

Merit: 1081

I may write code in exchange for bitcoins.

Quote from: Envrin on October 19, 2015, 01:24:38 PM

Quote from: David Rabahy on September 28, 2015, 01:02:11 PM

If a Bitcoin angel will give me 1 BTC now then I will run my full node as long as possible.

1 BTC/month? Are you kidding me? That node probably costs you maybe $0.50/month to run, if you even notice a higher cost of living due to running it.

Myself and clients combined have dozens of full nodes running across the internet. The $$$ to run a node never factors into anything.

FWIW, he didn't say 1BTC per month, he says give him 1BTC and he'll run it as long as possible. From what I can tell, he left the value of "as long as possible" underspecified.

Xialla

legendary

Activity: 1036

Merit: 1001

/dev/null

Quote from: Envrin on October 19, 2015, 01:24:38 PM

That node probably costs you maybe $0.50/month to run...

ohh really?...and because of 0.5$ per montht even core developer publicly admit, that he is not running full node anymore..

"Block size has become too large for me to keep my home node running 24/7 anymore (it was affecting my phone call and videoconferencing quality too much). Now I just run it when I want to use Bitcoin."

source: http://bit.ly/1LGI9XG

Topic: Re: Fees for full nodes? - page 2. (Read 8464 times)