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Topic: Read this before having an opinion on economics - page 11. (Read 25946 times)

sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 252
Elder Crypto God
But as the internet grew, it became very easy to copy them and share the copies.

A lack of copyright laws would allow for a greater level of piracy (loss) but it would also allow for developers to remake technologically outdated or abandoned games (gain). You're focusing only on the losses while ignoring (or are simply unaware of) the gains. The real question is, which outweighs which? Would it be a net gain or a net loss? If you don't know then it's irresponsible to advocate such laws.
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
I've seen the result of intellectual property theft and I don't like it. The market adjusts and less people spend time creating things that are easy to copy, so the quality of those things are diminished.

Can you demonstrate there would be a net loss for society? The burden of proof is on you.

An example that is at the top of my head is hard to call a net loss for society. But I can see how it could easily translate to other fields. And of course something like net loss to society would be extremely subjective, so proof is difficult. And it's probably impossible to measure.

The example would be PC video games. They were very good for a while and kept getting better. But as the internet grew, it became very easy to copy them and share the copies. Most major games released these days are ports of console games. Why? Producers make more money (if you look at the sales figures it's quite plain) on console games because it is more difficult to copy and share them. Of course it is possible, but much more difficult than a PC version. So we have these custom built PCs that absolutely destroy consoles as far as gaming power is concerned, but the only games that are released for PC are shitty ports of games that can run on the current consoles.

Video games may actually be harmful to society though. Perhaps PC games were better for society than console games because they pushed hardware developers to constantly upgrade their products., although they still do.
legendary
Activity: 3794
Merit: 1375
Armory Developer
This is not an argument in favor of copyrights.  Your opinions on the quality of products are irrelevent.

It establishes a direct link between quality of intellectual products and their perceived value by the market. If the market undervalues such product by copying it, the quality will adjust itself down to that value. And value is relevant to property.
legendary
Activity: 3794
Merit: 1375
Armory Developer
I've seen the result of intellectual property theft and I don't like it. The market adjusts and less people spend time creating things that are easy to copy, so the quality of those things are diminished.

Can you demonstrate there would be a net loss for society? The burden of proof is on you.

Who even remotely cares? It is not a matter of net loss for whatever people you are willing to lump in some group and call them representative of society, it is a matter of loss to you, as a consumer, for certain quality products are not profitable enough because they are too easy to copy and as such only low quality of such product is ever only made (read low investment).

This started as a fundamental look at property, let's keep it as such.

Also ethics and morals are not relevant in this discussion, because your morals are yours only and you cannot implement them into anyone. What you can expect though, is consequences for you actions, i.e., you do not respect my property by stealing the design I've come up with, do not expect me to respect your property, however material or immaterial it is.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010


Let me say that I consider it initiation of force to take property which belongs to someone else and using force to prevent it would be justified.


This is true, but what the disconnect here is what defines property.

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I've seen the result of intellectual property theft and I don't like it. The market adjusts and less people spend time creating things that are easy to copy, so the quality of those things are diminished.

This is not an argument in favor of copyrights.  Your opinions on the quality of products are irrelevent.
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
Okay?  I don't know if it's okay.  As a generality, it might be immoral and an unethical business practice; but what if that product was a cure for AIDS but the same company that sold it at an inflated price did so while selling a much cheaper maintaince drug?  I could think of any number of strawmen to burn here, but the point is not whether it's okay to intentionally compete with an inventor by reverse engineering their work.  The point is that it's not ethical to advocate for the use of force to punish said unethical behaviour.  You can take steps to prevent your trade secrets from being stolen, including using force against anyone who tresspasses to that end, but once the cat is out of the bag, use or advocacy of force to punish said person is easily as wrong as the original "crime".  I wouldn't do it, nor would I support anyone that I knew did it, but nor would I support the original inventor if he decided to hire a group of thugs to tear down his competitors' factories.

The "right to copy" is not a right, but a privilage, and as such cannot be seperated from the current government/corporate collusion.

I guess I meant to ask "is it theft" by is OK.

I see. So using force in the reverse engineering example would be wrong because anyone is free to copy something that has been publicly released, regardless if it is immoral or unethical business practice.
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 252
Elder Crypto God
I've seen the result of intellectual property theft and I don't like it. The market adjusts and less people spend time creating things that are easy to copy, so the quality of those things are diminished.

Can you demonstrate there would be a net loss for society? The burden of proof is on you.
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
I think it should be legal, yes, if that's all you mean by condoning. Nobody should use force or coercion to stop me. You're still free to socially stigmatize me. I think cheating on your spouse shouldn't be criminal but it's still immoral and unethical. I hope you understand now.

If you were under any other impression, it was a mistake on your part, one that I've corrected for you.

No, I understood what you meant by incompatible with libertarianism, I enjoy discussion and other peoples' point of view. I once considered myself a libertarian.

Let me say that I consider it initiation of force to take property which belongs to someone else and using force to prevent it would be justified.

I've seen the result of intellectual property theft and I don't like it. The market adjusts and less people spend time creating things that are easy to copy, so the quality of those things are diminished.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
Yes, it's theft.  But only because 1) the data is his and he made no attempt to publish it, so by default he intended to keep it; and 2) the wallet.dat file has only one function, and therefore copying it without the owner's consent can have only one motive.  I.E. to spend another person's funds.

I don't think that this is comparable to "intellectual property" because the core point of copyrights and such is to maintain a market advantage over other publishers, not to protect secrets.

So using a telescopic lens to photograph blueprints that I've created, then producing and selling the item for yourself, would be theft as well?

Yes.

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But reverse engineering a product that I've sold and selling the exact same item for less (because you didn't have to invest in the creation), is OK?

Okay?  I don't know if it's okay.  As a generality, it might be immoral and an unethical business practice; but what if that product was a cure for AIDS but the same company that sold it at an inflated price did so while selling a much cheaper maintaince drug?  I could think of any number of strawmen to burn here, but the point is not whether it's okay to intentionally compete with an inventor by reverse engineering their work.  The point is that it's not ethical to advocate for the use of force to punish said unethical behaviour.  You can take steps to prevent your trade secrets from being stolen, including using force against anyone who tresspasses to that end, but once the cat is out of the bag, use or advocacy of force to punish said person is easily as wrong as the original "crime".  I wouldn't do it, nor would I support anyone that I knew did it, but nor would I support the original inventor if he decided to hire a group of thugs to tear down his competitors' factories.

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Forget the current government / corporation collusion. What if the core point of copyrights was exactly what it implied?  Right to copy.

The "right to copy" is not a right, but a privilage, and as such cannot be seperated from the current government/corporate collusion.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 252
So using a telescopic lens to photograph blueprints that I've created, then producing and selling the item for yourself, would be theft as well?

But reverse engineering a product that I've sold and selling the exact same item for less (because you didn't have to invest in the creation), is OK?

Neither is theft, as neither denies you the use of your property OR idea. It may deny you the ability to profit (as much) from the idea, but that is not the point of property rights.

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Forget the current government / corporation collusion. What if the core point of copyrights was exactly what it implied?  Right to copy.

The original idea behind copyright about in the late 1600s as a form of royal censorship. The Stationer's Guild was given exclusive rights to make copies, in exchange for only making copies of approved works. Eventually, their monopoly was revoked and anyone could make copies without penalty. Then, presumably under influence by the guild, the Statute of Anne was passed, giving the exclusive right to copy to the original creator of the work. Luckily for the guild, they still essentially had a de facto monopoly on copying, so most creators transferred ownership as part of their contract.
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
Yes, it's theft.  But only because 1) the data is his and he made no attempt to publish it, so by default he intended to keep it; and 2) the wallet.dat file has only one function, and therefore copying it without the owner's consent can have only one motive.  I.E. to spend another person's funds.

I don't think that this is comparable to "intellectual property" because the core point of copyrights and such is to maintain a market advantage over other publishers, not to protect secrets.

So using a telescopic lens to photograph blueprints that I've created, then producing and selling the item for yourself, would be theft as well?

But reverse engineering a product that I've sold and selling the exact same item for less (because you didn't have to invest in the creation), is OK?

Forget the current government / corporation collusion. What if the core point of copyrights was exactly what it implied?  Right to copy.
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 252
Elder Crypto God

What do you mean by condone?


Accept and allow. I quoted a previous comment of yours so you would know exactly what I meant by condone.

I own paper. I own a printer. I should be able to do whatever I want with them, including printing out copies of the latest bestseller and hocking them on the street.

You condone copying intangible property.

I think it should be legal, yes, if that's all you mean by condoning. Nobody should use force or coercion to stop me. You're still free to socially stigmatize me. I think cheating on your spouse shouldn't be criminal but it's still immoral and unethical. I hope you understand now.

If you were under any other impression, it was a mistake on your part, one that I've corrected for you.
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100

What do you mean by condone?


Accept and allow. I quoted a previous comment of yours so you would know exactly what I meant by condone.

I own paper. I own a printer. I should be able to do whatever I want with them, including printing out copies of the latest bestseller and hocking them on the street.

You condone copying intangible property.
legendary
Activity: 3794
Merit: 1375
Armory Developer
You say it would be immoral for me to copy your bitcoin wallet, yet you condone copying of intangible property.

What do you mean by condone? I think it's immoral and unethical to derive enjoyment from someone's artwork without paying them what they ask, assuming you knew they were asking for a fee before you enjoyed said artwork. I just don't think it should be criminal. Intellectual property laws are incompatible with Libertarianism. That's my only claim.

The proper example would be I have x-ray goggles and you outright tell me "no you can't use them", then proceed to buy yourself a pair and use them.

Utter nonsense. That's so wrong that I don't even know where to start. Try again.

You made it quite clear that you do not respect intellectual property and not simply the actual take of whatever government on it, which also puts you out of context since from the early steps of this discussion it was stated that no force was going to be used to apply those property rights.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
Bitcoins can't be copied, wallet can.
I don't see how copying his wallet and taking his bitcoins wouldn't be illegal under US law.
It has a value and it seems like that would be theft for sure.


Yes, it's theft.  But only because 1) the data is his and he made no attempt to publish it, so by default he intended to keep it; and 2) the wallet.dat file has only one function, and therefore copying it without the owner's consent can have only one motive.  I.E. to spend another person's funds.

I don't think that this is comparable to "intellectual property" because the core point of copyrights and such is to maintain a market advantage over other publishers, not to protect secrets.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 252
If I manage to copy your wallet file, the bitcoins are mine? And that's OK?

Immoral? Yes. Unethical? Yes. Criminal? No.

Hmm, I think that is actually a very interesting question. In general, private keys are not scarce. However, those which unlock my funds are, as are Bitcoins themselves. Admittedly, by merely copying my wallet, you are not denying me the use of my funds, but as soon as you actually send funds from it you are. Additionally, it is likely that in order to copy my wallet, you made use of my physical property (computer) without consent.
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 252
Elder Crypto God
You say it would be immoral for me to copy your bitcoin wallet, yet you condone copying of intangible property.

What do you mean by condone? I think it's immoral and unethical to derive enjoyment from someone's artwork without paying them what they ask, assuming you knew they were asking for a fee before you enjoyed said artwork. I just don't think it should be criminal. Intellectual property laws are incompatible with Libertarianism. That's my only claim.

The proper example would be I have x-ray goggles and you outright tell me "no you can't use them", then proceed to buy yourself a pair and use them.

Utter nonsense. That's so wrong that I don't even know where to start. Try again.
legendary
Activity: 3794
Merit: 1375
Armory Developer
I guess since you don't recognize private property

I recognize tangible property. I don't recognize imaginary property.

the right to use said property as I see fit

The fallacy is assuming that you are required to be successful in your attempts to use said property. You might have x-ray goggles but if I have lead-lined walls, you will fail in your usage.

Yet that property is very real. So very real that you want to take it to use it for yourself, and are making a point at not caring what I have to say about it.

Your example deviates from the point. What you present would be the equivalent of coming up with some ingenious design of yours and taking over my market share, which is perfectly fair, even if you based it off of my original concept, since you made it better, you deserve the rip from it.

The proper example would be I have x-ray goggles and you outright tell me "no you can't use them", then proceed to buy yourself a pair and use them.

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Do mathematicians "create" theorems?  What right would the descendants of Pierre de Fermat (or he himself, in his time) have to prevent you from rediscovering, say, Fermat's Little Theorem independently (such things happen in mathematics all the time), or from using it to prove other theorems or to invent new technologies, like public key cryptography?

If I rediscover it, it is mine to use. You are completely out of context. Laws of nature are for anyone to use if they can so manage. I am a painter and I come up with a piece. Now I choose to charge people to come and see it. I am not pretending dominion over paint, canvas or the technique I used to produce my painting. I am pretending property over the original alignment of colors that is the picture I have come up with. Then you come along, take a picture under the pretense that I cannot restrict access to that piece, that it somehow belongs to everyone, and god knows what else.

You take the stance that originality does not exist, that voluntary alignment of objects hold no meaning nor value, that a thousand monkeys with a typewriter and infinite time can come up the whole of Shakespear's work, and then pretend that I am calling dibs on words and semantics.

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When was the last time that anybody got rich by patenting a programming language?  Aren't these useful inventions?  Don't they get invented all the time?

Programming languages were invented for the very purpose of being spread. You are oblivious to the intention of the creator, thinking that intangible creation were made for masses benefit, at the cost of its creator's time, effort and resources.

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One argument for patents is that the alternative would be secrecy.  A counterexample would be the RSA algorithm.  It was first "invented" by someone in some British secret agency and kept secret.  Not much later, a group of researchers discovered it independently and published it.  Now everyone can benefit from it.  I don't think their inventors regret the work they put into it.  Actually, I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

That is their very right, ideas aren't properties, their expression is. A movie maker isn't demanding rights over the concept of romance, only his take on it. A mathematician knows there is no rights to be held on a theory, but the software he builds after it, that is his property. If you can understand his process and give it your own shot, you are in your right and the more power to you. But to copy his software to spread it at your profit and at his detriment, this is not only aggression against the creator but also pocketing his wealth for yourself.

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If you could reliably heal yourself by checking a website and following simple instructions, doctors would have no business, and that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.


Specialists fill for your inability to specialize in said domain, in the expectation of returns for services rendered. The very existence of specialists implies that they were able to profit from their specialty more than from being common laborers, which is the reason we don't live in caves anymore. But we are headed straight towards cave land if they can't make a profit of holding and applying knowledge that you don't have. If intellectual rights are moot, then a doctor has no right to charge you for a diagnosis. Let's see where that is going to take us.

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In sum, mathematics, science, and medicine have progressed alright for centuries without anybody really needing to artificially restrict anybody else's use of information.  Information is variably hard to discover/produce, but, by nature, often trivial to reproduce.  You have no right to demand others to artificially renounce the benefits of this desirable property in order to protect a fundamentally unsound business plan.

Yeah let's forget the existence of sponsors under the form of kings, feudal lords and later governments and corporates, all that have greatly benefited from said research that they financed. And you want to read the part on charity again. My business plan seems to be sound enough that you want to take over, don't you? And somehow what isn't property turns into "desirable property" out of a sudden. Well shit, son.

You pay to be taught but you don't pay for the book that holds that knowledge? That is nonsensical.

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I think you're under the mistaken assumption that producing X entitles you to own X but let's say you break into my shop, steal a bunch of my wood and then build a chair out of it. Do you own the chair because you produced it? No, it's my chair plus you owe me for damages to my wood. I collect wood, you see, and I wanted it kept in pristine condition.

'scuse me what? If you gonna talk about private property at least respect it's principles... first come first served, it doesn't matter what I did to your wood, it was without your consent, I have no right to it nor did I ever had. And yeah, if I build a plane it belongs to me, and the original alignment of its innards too. kthx.

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that the need for property rights with tangible goods arises from their scarcity
I don't agree with this at a fundamental level. This is a pragmatic explanation, that exposes the need of property rights for a functional society to exist. It does not tend to the fundamental concept of property. I walk on a beach and pick up a grain of sand and call it mine. Assuming no one claimed it before me, it is now mine, and as all value is subjective, I shall assign it any value that I wish, and it certainly is not scarce. Property is a factor of value, and even though scarcity is an important parameter of value, it is but situational. Here's a simple example. Titanium is the 3rd most available metal on the world. Yet items made of titanium are highly expensive, because it requires particular knowledge and skill to work it. Here what is scarce is the ability to work it, even though, according to you, ideas 'cannot be scarce', so since the knowledge is available, anyone should be able to reproduce it.

True, scarcity isn't relevant to an idea, but the ability to understand it, that is. And nevertheless, books are not scarce, but a particular book holding a particular idea is valuable, because of the knowledge it provides.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 252
youtube.com/ericfontainejazz now accepts bitcoin
Remember, folks...

Mises.org's books are free(well, the digital edition at least) thanks to the hardworking anti-intellectual property movement.

P.S. We need a bitcoin address for mises.org.

Unfortunatly the mises and lewrockwell folks tend to be gold-bugs and tend to automatically dismiss any currency that is "backed by nothing"...
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
Bitcoins can't be copied, wallet can.
I don't see how copying his wallet and taking his bitcoins wouldn't be illegal under US law.
It has a value and it seems like that would be theft for sure.

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