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Topic: Request for Discussion: proposal for standard modular rack miner (Read 9676 times)

sr. member
Activity: 512
Merit: 250
Quote
Full disclosure: I used to design and build open-air cases for most of the custom mining boards, and I miss it terribly.   Cry

Yes, miss your work.  Gone are the day of open air cases, there's just too much heat generated by asic chips.  But keep thinking of
converting your talents to new products.

Yes, I understand that open-air cases no longer work with today's asics and I've expanded to building fully enclosed cases, for example:

http://www.spotswoodcomputercases.com/images/frames/5slotcase/5slotwCompletedTopLeftAngle-640.JPG
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
Quote
Full disclosure: I used to design and build open-air cases for most of the custom mining boards, and I miss it terribly.   Cry

Yes, miss your work.  Gone are the day of open air cases, there's just too much heat generated by asic chips.  But keep thinking of
converting your talents to new products.
legendary
Activity: 872
Merit: 1010
Coins, Games & Miners
[...]
Schneider Electric is another with most focus on heat flow in the rooms (data center cooling) and power distribution. Witrebel, sent ya a pm re Schneider and yer Venezuela project.
[...]

Hehehe.... my country Wink Btw, Schenider electric has its offices near my city, if anyone needs directions, ask away.

Btw, i know the case is going to have a mainly fan cooling design, and it would be cool if it would be possible to also add mounting option for ducts, so one could direct the airflow outside the case more easily.
legendary
Activity: 3822
Merit: 2703
Evil beware: We have waffles!
Cool. I'm on the COSMOL and also Mentor Graphics email lists so am very familiar with their offerings but so far have not needed to actually use them. Common-sense and Industrial usage overkill which assumes worst-case to rather be the norm suffices Tongue

Schneider Electric is another with most focus on heat flow in the rooms (data center cooling) and power distribution. Witrebel, sent ya a pm re Schneider and yer Venezuela project.

Anywho, if you have access to a seat in any of them then most excellent.
member
Activity: 116
Merit: 101
Quick update,  I am back stateside on dry land.  Haven't gotten a chance to model the latest version but to recap what I think I am still missing:

Remove the panel from over the hashing space, leaving only a small section towards the back to promote laminar flow.
Decrease the width of the sidepocket to 1" and rework the heatsink sizes to match
Add dimples and verify that the clearance is still good above cards, im thinking 0.125" dimples?

I was able to get access to a license of COMSOL with a good selection of modules, so now its just a matter of familiarizing myself with this enviorment and getting the models imported correctly etc.  I hope to have some results inside of two weeks, ideally much sooner.
sr. member
Activity: 512
Merit: 250
It would be nice if a blade had a mounting hole in each corner and that the total height of a blade was at least 13-15mm less than 4U (or whatever "U" you decide on), so that buyers could mount blades in the grooves of slotted extrusion, etc.  Cheesy

-Rich

Full disclosure: I used to design and build open-air cases for most of the custom mining boards, and I miss it terribly.   Cry

EDIT:  What are the dimensions of a S1 board?
legendary
Activity: 3416
Merit: 1865
Curmudgeonly hardware guy
I had assumed a flathead screw in countersunk hole. If we go dimple recessing, there should still be plenty of clearance between the cards and the top of the case.

I know a lot of folks shelf miners, but there's not really a good reason to make it not rack-mountable just in case.
legendary
Activity: 3822
Merit: 2703
Evil beware: We have waffles!
a bit late in the game but - on packaging...
The rack mount format is great for aesthetics but -- most farms just place the miners on industrial shelving eg. https://bitcoinnewsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/hashnest.png Just tossing that reminder out there.

On bolting blades to the bottom of case: Will they be pan heads recessed in stamped dimples or tapered heads going into tapered holes? Can't have screw heads scrathing whatever is under the miner...

For a mfg standpoint I'd use stamped dimples. Many (most?) sheet metal fabricators have presses/laser cutters that can do the blanking/dimpling/louvers/cutting all on the 1 machine. Dimples will of course raise the blades higher by around .125" or so...
legendary
Activity: 872
Merit: 1010
Coins, Games & Miners
Ah, okay. I see what you're saying on the power backplane.
Chip addressing shouldn't really be an issue how I see it, since each board would enumerate as its own device in cgminer if they were USB-connected. No one board should overlap with another. Or are you thinking a multiplexer on each board that talks to each node independently?

It would work if certain boards could be fabricated as one single form factor, with just a "parent" board with USB logic and the rest just plain old chip addressing. This would be just an option for a given manufacturer, so no need to enforce it.
legendary
Activity: 3416
Merit: 1865
Curmudgeonly hardware guy
Ah, okay. I see what you're saying on the power backplane.
Chip addressing shouldn't really be an issue how I see it, since each board would enumerate as its own device in cgminer if they were USB-connected. No one board should overlap with another. Or are you thinking a multiplexer on each board that talks to each node independently?
legendary
Activity: 3822
Merit: 2703
Evil beware: We have waffles!
Ja is rather OT from the mechanicals I guess. Figgered the connectors vid could apply to PSU backplane connections though, the debug maybe as alternate way to address chips  Tongue
And now back to regular scheduled programming.
legendary
Activity: 3416
Merit: 1865
Curmudgeonly hardware guy
Isn't that post talking about firmware on the controller, or am I reading wrong? Also I don't quite know how anything in your last couple posts has anything to do with anythign.

Especially if we're wanting to steer back to the actual topic of discussing mechanical design instead of board-level, which excepting the mechanical constraints of the PCB is completely outside this thread's intended scope.
legendary
Activity: 3822
Merit: 2703
Evil beware: We have waffles!
You seen this about connecting hash boards via debug pins that are on them? https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9902302
It's a simple 3-wire serial port meaning that with a port-selection method of addressing the boards eg COM1, COM2, and such it could be translated with a multi-port rs232/USB switch(s).
Hmm. Easy way to get away from a shared SPI com bus?
legendary
Activity: 3822
Merit: 2703
Evil beware: We have waffles!
A good discussion about DC power connectors and the process of selecting them. The course is 49min total http://www.techonline.com/asset/download/4437224/course
Some timestamps for it
A--Slide 1: Introduction and setting the stage 00:00
Part B--Slide 8: Misconceptions, examples, and basics 04:20
Part C--Slide 15: Starting the process 10:00
Part D--Slide 26: Selection process: theory & reality 18:20
Part E--Slide 41: What are other concerns?  33:20
Part F--Slide 46: Working with your supplier 39:10

And one from Intel on PCB design http://www.techonline.com/electrical-engineers/education-training/courses/4000356/Fundamentals-of-PCB-Design
legendary
Activity: 3822
Merit: 2703
Evil beware: We have waffles!
I do know the 1384 appears to be internally shunted to about 1.2V, which might be a deliberate design choice to keep current at least close to balanced in a failing sring so you don't end up blowing caps and catching things on fire.
It is a certainty that process variations will result in chips that have slightly different electrical operating specs. How much different - dunna know but it can be substantial ergo my hope that they are testing/binning for best matches in a string or at least the chip pairs. Nice of them to think of the need to clamp Vcore. Passive shunt using 2 silicon diodes or zener?
legendary
Activity: 3416
Merit: 1865
Curmudgeonly hardware guy
I've seen S5 node-level voltage variations of about +/-4% from nominal. The S5 init code ramps the chip work up slowly from zero to full-speed so there are no substantial differences in workload from one chip to another. The Prisma had node-level FET buffering but they got rid of it on BE300 test boards because they weren't having any of the balance issues they saw on Prisma. I don't know what chip-level differences there are between chips designed with string in mind versus parallel/VRM. I do know the 1384 appears to be internally shunted to about 1.2V, which might be a deliberate design choice to keep current at least close to balanced in a failing sring so you don't end up blowing caps and catching things on fire.
legendary
Activity: 3822
Merit: 2703
Evil beware: We have waffles!
Chips have zero voltage. It would be possible to set a "cut here" zone to disconnect local comms and solder pads to jump to the next node could be populated by either solder blobs or 0-ohm resistors. That's pretty much how my L-board works - except instead of "cut here" I just don't put a chip on the second pad in that node so there's nothing for it to talk to anyway. With a "cut here" you wouldn't have to worry about pulling chips, which reduces the "tools required" from a hot-air station to a $5 firestarter.
Leaving big fat pads to short around can get dangerous, because if you accidentally short them when you don't want to things could get screwed up ala Prisma. If you've got a soldering iron, knock off the node-level caps and short across their pads. Wouldn't take but a minute.
Total increase in PCB cost plus parts cost plus additional assembly, $0 - sounds like a win to me.

The chips have zero means of regulating voltage. The thing that keeps the node voltages at about 0.8V is that all the chips are operating at the same frequency and doing the same mount of work - they're all pulling the same amount of power, so the same amount of current is going through each node, so the voltage divides evenly just like it was a string of equal-value resistors. If one chip starts to misbehave, you can think of its resistance changing (either up or down depending on the error) which means the voltage across it changes and that affects how much voltage is left over to divide among the others in the string.

If you bypassed one node, you'd have to drop your board voltage by one node's worth. If you went from 15 nodes to 14 but didn't change your voltage, now your nodes get 0.860V instead of 0.800V and they start to cook a bit.

I have been wondering for a long time how the string setup worked reliably without any signs of a shunt regulator across them. So it is only because all chips are more or less doing the same operations at the same time that keeps the voltage divided evenly... Elegant solution to eliminating the need for VRM's provided all the chips have identical tested specs or apparently at least fairly close ones. Is also a dicey solution in that all must chips be doing the same operations so their loads are identical. I do hope that Bitmain is binning the chips to keep all in a chain reasonably matched!

I like your idea on adding mosfets to do just that for when a chip goes down. I assume that the bypass FET will be switched on hard for minimum losses? As you said only problem is that when a chip goes down hard ya lose coms from that point. In hardware mode, as you said - give the associated cap a push to pop it off and jumper across the pads. Perfect solution (until too many get tweaked).

Along those lines.... Looking at Bitmains spec for the S7 they call for 12vdc OR MORE. Up to 5% more.
With the s5 string setup I wonder how much neg margin we have vs stock clock speed? Bitmain had said the S5 could be fed as low as 9.7v when underclocked. On most of my rigs I usually read 12.1x at the supply and 11.92v at the PCIe connectors. The HP/IBM psu's do have a voltage trim/remote sense sooo.
Do you know how low the supplies can be set (for underclocking/volting) and how high when compensating for drop across power leads?
What pin terminal is the sense/trim input?
legendary
Activity: 3416
Merit: 1865
Curmudgeonly hardware guy
What you're talking about would be even more expensive. The material cost of a "cut here" bypass is zero dollars. The complexity of adjusting the supply voltage is already on the board; I refuse to build a fixed-voltage miner.

If you want to replace your chip with a fixed-value resistor, you need to replace that resistor every time you change your clock or voltage settings. It's not practical. Also, .05ohm 10W resistors probably aren't cheap.

Since now we're at board-level discussion, this should probably be moved to a board-level discussion thread. I think we should get back to the machine specs.
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
I am far from certain that the complexity of adjusting the supply sting voltage and bypassing the data string is worth cost? What I do think is worth doing would be to detect a chip that is not responding and to shut the board down to prevent further damage.

What would then be useful would be to identify which chip has failed. I do not know if the chips identify and are allocated addresses during power up, but assume this to be the case?

Then perhaps some pads  & cut areas that would enable comms to bypass the failed chip and to attach a suitable value of resistor for the power if chip replacement was not possible?

Rich
legendary
Activity: 3416
Merit: 1865
Curmudgeonly hardware guy
Chips have zero voltage. It would be possible to set a "cut here" zone to disconnect local comms and solder pads to jump to the next node could be populated by either solder blobs or 0-ohm resistors. That's pretty much how my L-board works - except instead of "cut here" I just don't put a chip on the second pad in that node so there's nothing for it to talk to anyway. With a "cut here" you wouldn't have to worry about pulling chips, which reduces the "tools required" from a hot-air station to a $5 firestarter.
Leaving big fat pads to short around can get dangerous, because if you accidentally short them when you don't want to things could get screwed up ala Prisma. If you've got a soldering iron, knock off the node-level caps and short across their pads. Wouldn't take but a minute.
Total increase in PCB cost plus parts cost plus additional assembly, $0 - sounds like a win to me.

The chips have zero means of regulating voltage. The thing that keeps the node voltages at about 0.8V is that all the chips are operating at the same frequency and doing the same mount of work - they're all pulling the same amount of power, so the same amount of current is going through each node, so the voltage divides evenly just like it was a string of equal-value resistors. If one chip starts to misbehave, you can think of its resistance changing (either up or down depending on the error) which means the voltage across it changes and that affects how much voltage is left over to divide among the others in the string.

If you bypassed one node, you'd have to drop your board voltage by one node's worth. If you went from 15 nodes to 14 but didn't change your voltage, now your nodes get 0.860V instead of 0.800V and they start to cook a bit.


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