Topic: RESOLVED - page 2. (Read 1071 times)

My question here is why do you choose to play at a smaller casino that has a semi sketchy past? Why wouldn't you choose to play on a site like Stake.com. roobet, Bitsler or Gamdom? Sites that have shown they have a bankroll to make a big payout.

You're free to play at wintomato but why would you? I see a lot of accusations against smaller sites and cannot understand why a player decided to play there, let alone play with a big balance. Seems a little odd doesn't it?

I doubt they care much about their reputation and unless they come here with some proper explanations and proof, it could get even worse. My advice to the OP is gather all the evidence and make a complaint on AskGamblers as well. Someone from their team will take a look at your data and also request proof from Wintomato. My next piece of advice is to give them a few days to see if they will respond again in this thread. If not, create a flag against them and let's see if there will be enough support for it. The way things stand now, I will be one of those who will support the correct type of flag. 

It looks like I'm not wrong to say if this casino want to hide their sports terms of service from the gamblers, moreover they haven't show any proof to back up their own words since it's just an excuse and they haven't any reputation in this forum.

The wintomato representative is logging in this forum yesterday, but they haven't give any reply until now. I think they're still making a new excuse to not pay this gambler

Yeah, arbitrage betting and value betting are two very different things. They are not illegal in the sense you will be taken to jail if you do it, but they are unwelcome and frowned upon. Bookies put limits and even ban players for value betting. In OPs case, his bets are clean and round numbers. Arbitrage betting is recognized if you see weird wagers that you wouldn't normally make. For example, betting $100 on an outcome is a normal thing. Betting $103.48 isn't. It looks like it's been calculated by an arbitrage calculator for maximum profit.

I'm not familiar at all with gambling and their terms, so I have to rely on the internet to look for the definition of the terms wintomato accused OP did here that put him on this position, but unless the definition I read are wrong --all five of them, actually, so the odd is nearly nonexistent-- there are inconsistencies on your counter-accusations against OP.

As per your reply on this thread, quoted above, you ban OP because they violate your TnC of value betting, which you neatly also explained on the lower part of the post. While the screenshot of email on 17 September, and whatever emails that you're yet to show us to backup the "multiple times" claim, is a warning is about the arbitrage betting.

These two, according to five different sites I read, are a different thing. On arbit betting, you bet on several outcome simultaneously, while value betting is simply --which can also be summed from your own post-- is the act of placing one bet where you're kinda sure --still a gamble, though-- that the outcome would be against the odds that the bookie placed. A nice comparison is here:


So, if you ban OP, stating that the reason is because you've warned them several times about arbit betting which they kept ignoring and forced you to lock their account, it can be summarized that either (1) you're as clueless as me about betting terms because the two counter-accusation you gave are two different things and yet somehow you understand them as one similar thing which leads you to ban them and ultimately leads us all to this position, and how on earth does a professional betting provider didn't know that they're different thing? Or... (2) you ban every user the instance they tried a betting method, no first warning or whatev. Bear in mind --in case you missed my point-- that the two is a different thing, so your email on 17th September --arbit betting-- is completely unrelated to the explanation of the "cheating" the OP did as per your explanation on 25th of November --value betting. And please note that from the way I understand them, these methods are actually quite legal as they're counted as "strategies".

Of course, the two possible summary above is under the assumption that OP is indeed utilize one of the two methods, you should explain how does OP arbit betting if they loses a lot of times. Or, if they're value betting, why does the invalid ones --thus revoked-- are only the winning terms while the other bets aren't. I think, the first thing you should do right now is make up your mind whether you ban OP for value betting or arbit betting... it'll be nice if we can have a side dish of explanation about how you mixed up both terms too.

I am not familiar with the MLB or the different segments that exist in a baseball game. But by using the betsapi site that was suggested above, are you able to find that particular moment in the match where you placed your live bet with high odds so we can see what odds bet365 was offering at the exact same time? If the offered odds were similar on both bookies, it would be a clear sign that Wintomato didn't act appropriately.

Thanks, I can see it now. That's clearly not how it should be. Those links should also be placed on the main page and not hidden somewhere in a wallet of text like Wintomato is doing. And another thing, if you compare the link to their general T&C (https://wintomato.com/en/terms-and-conditions) to the one that applies to sports betting (https://wintomato.com/en/news/sports-terms-and-conditions), do you notice that it says "news" on the link? It's a separate page on their casino, like a blog where they post various betting and crypto-related articles. You can check it out from this link: https://wintomato.com/en/news. The interesting thing is, the news article about their Sports T&C isn't visible in the list.

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So I am asking the Wintomato representative one more time, walk me through the process of accessing the page for your Sports T&C? And a follow up question: why is that news article about your Sports T&C not available in the list with the other articles?

You can check by clicking the general terms and conditions, then look on the 12.13 rules, it's where they mention the sports betting terms and conditions. I think it's tricky and they want to hide it from their gamblers, they wouldn't aware if this casino has a separate rules for sports since they only write the general terms and conditions. Unlike the other casino that mention their sports terms and conditions on their main page.

Can you show us some proof about the warnings your received about the mentioned player by sport RMG to confirm that part of the story? Remove any sensitive and identifiable data, especially names, addresses etc.? Also, when were you warned about the activities? Was it during the period while the player was losing or did the warning arrive when he started winning a bit?

I know what value bets are. Other bookies ban and limit players who partake in such activities, so they aren't exactly "bet for fun" type of activities. They could be considered a professional way of betting that isn't welcome at casinos. However, value betting is profitable long-term. If it's true that this particular player has a loss of $30k overall, how can he be value betting? Where is the logic in that? Are you saying that he was value betting even when he was losing? If he is now in a minus of $30k, he was probably down over $50k at one point in time since he mentioned that he started a positive streak. 

Regarding your Sports Terms and Conditions, I saw the link you posted, but that link is nowhere to be found on the main page of your casino. The landing page only shows the general T&C, not the one for sports. Walk me through the process of accessing your Sports Terms and Conditions from Wintomatos' main page please?

Can you mention how and show us a few of those warnings you sent to the player?

OK, this seems like a valid warning. @GekkeBelg, any comments?

This is the communication mail with him on 17th of September 2022, during this time we already warned him about our suspicions and but did not take radical actions, however possible consequences were clearly stated and T&C were referred;

The first question is why you're not fix the odds first and let the gamblers to bet on such buggy bets? you're the reason why the gamblers can bet in that match, any gamblers will try to find a better odds among the other bookies. You're just make a rules that want the gamblers to lose and you're don't want to see them to win, I don't think it's make any sense to have this kind rules.

I don't think the gambler is wrong if they're just looking for better odds, as long as they're not using any such tools or break the other rules they're not wrong.

If you are lucky and end a month winning more than you lose for them it is "value bets" and they don't pay you, it's as simple as that.

@wintomato
Is it possible to know with what criterion the "value bets" are counted?
what does the bookmaker do to realize this data? what algorithm does it use?
for example, if the same odds occur on betfair.com (exchange markets), also in this case we can speak of value bets (regardless given that the odds are still wrong by the bookmaker??)

I've been using them for years, I'm sure you can find bet365 odds on all your matches. You just need to login.


Yeah, I know, when a bookie starts talking about value betting and how they only allow recreational bets, that's total bs. If they don't like the players' actions, they can cut the limits, but they have to pay out all the winnings 

I got curious and compared odds on the last two cancelled bets at wintomato and bet365 (the world's leading bookmaker).
OP bet 2k on Chicago Bulls at 15:10 with 2.52 odds, while bet365 odds ranged between 2.6-2.65.
Another bet 4k on Indiana Pacers at 8:1 with 1.24 odds, while bet365 odds were 1.2-1.27.

So yes, OP's bets are fine, it's the bookie with lame excuses trying to steal the winnings.

https://i.ibb.co/w0J0MmW/chicago-bulls-odds.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/QfFy3QX/pacers-odds.jpg

Anyone can check odds for that matches using betsapi.com free service.


Since we are talking about a lot of money, it is worth consulting with lawyers. Personally, I can not advise anyone, but I heard that LMS Advocaten helped in similar cases with casinos registered in Curaçao.

Well OP is daring you to show proof that you did warn him and you use the word several times, if OP is very careful with his account he will take heed of the warning but he claimed that he did not receive any, with this statement the burden is on you to show that you really warned him, or this will be another reference of you being a bad casino to play with if Wintomato cannot show one better create another flag pointing to this thread.

this is a large amount. if they don't pay to get a lawyer.wintomato will be fined and forced to pay a larger amount as well.

this is insane nonsense written by wintomoto.from a legal and legal point of view the player can make whatever bets he wants.that is, he will be 100 percent convicted in a court case.under which laws the user is not allowed to play value bets.c

Wow this is pretty shocking to me. I would have expected better from a casino/bookmaker which is already in the business for 2 years. I think this could cause lasting reputation damage if you don't solve this Wintomato! People will not trust you anymore!

We gambling providers reserve right to cancel Bet Slips when odds are deviated from the normal coefficient  there is nothing unusual;

And we restrict the user completely if one is engaged in value betting system: hutting for buggy bets;

We canceled the following bets because all of them were value value bets;

And you were warned several times about this;

We were warned by sport RMG team about your action but since you had long betting history we did not take actions, unfortunately later we audited your bets and 90% were value bets; And you already could withdraw solid amount;


You were restricted several times by sports betting provider;
So don't mislead people;