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Topic: Ripple or Bitcoin - page 54. (Read 34110 times)

legendary
Activity: 1064
Merit: 1001
April 15, 2013, 12:20:52 PM
#52
If you have "one big gateway", it's always going to be a single point of failure. One thing Ripple does to reduce this risk is not allow gateways to freeze individual balances. So if a gateway refuses to redeem for particular people for any reason, so long as they're still in operation generally, those people can exchange balances at that gateway for some other asset.

I'm talking about the scenario where specific individuals who are citizens of the United States have a blanket ban on deposits to their accounts / frozen accounts. This would affect all gateways which provide settlement via ACH or wire transfer. In theory these individuals could do a cash settlement (gold or fiat). Still, there would be a blow to confidence.

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But it's certainly true that some kind of general failure of a major gateway could be a significant blow to the Ripple network. This is one of the reasons we are working to get some gateways going that are operated by regulated and insured financial institutions.

This is definitely helpful but the banking cartel could always use government force / regulatory capture to disrupt the smaller banks. Most likely this will be done under the ruse of preventing money laundering, stopping terrorism, or hindering child pornography. A court order might prevent ACH / wire settlements at smaller depository institutions, creating panic and driving the value of those IOUs to zero. The result would be a flight to the "anointed" banks (Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, etc...)

Technology works both ways. It allows us to be more productive but it also allows those with a monopoly on the use of force to more efficiently extract output from the rest of the world.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
April 15, 2013, 12:11:01 PM
#51
As with Bitcoin, the gateways are points of failure although to a lesser degree. But there will always be a "largest gateway", or the gateway that has the largest amount of assets on deposit / IOUs issued. A gateway always exposes a surface against which government force can be used. A government can disrupt gateway activities and cause its IOUs to become worthless. This could cause a loss of confidence in Ripple in general, and a wave of withdrawals, with other gateways going bankrupt or otherwise unable to conduct business. Similar to the recent Bitcoin crash from $266 to $57.
If you have "one big gateway", it's always going to be a single point of failure. One thing Ripple does to reduce this risk is not allow gateways to freeze individual balances. So if a gateway refuses to redeem for particular people for any reason, so long as they're still in operation generally, those people can exchange balances at that gateway for some other asset. But it's certainly true that some kind of general failure of a major gateway could be a significant blow to the Ripple network. This is one of the reasons we are working to get some gateways going that are operated by regulated and insured financial institutions.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
Martijn Meijering
April 15, 2013, 12:08:44 PM
#50
Even without gateways the trust network between individuals could provide a black market between fiat currencies and XRP / BTC even if merchants were forbidden to use XRP / BTC. This would be a very desirable development in say Zimbabwe. It could overthrow the government.
legendary
Activity: 1064
Merit: 1001
April 15, 2013, 12:05:52 PM
#49
And while your at it please answer this ignorant question. If the government of any country wanted you to freeze peoples accounts until they provided proof of idedntity, can they legally force you to?
The nightmare scenario would be if, say, some foreign government declares some Ripple account held by someone who has violated that country's laws and insists we freeze that account. They could perhaps bring an action in a United States court or even threaten the lives of OpenCoin employees. If the network was decentralized, we'd have no ability to freeze accounts or make changes except in our own servers, which would just get outvoted by other servers.

More likely methods of governmental attack:

Domain seizure: Simply take over the .com, .net, or .org address.

Freeze settlement: Using a court order, prevent gateways from settling / redeeming IOUs back into the banking system for specific individuals.

Surrender private keys: Using a court order, force a gateway to turn over the private keys to their wallet (or go to jail).

As with Bitcoin, the gateways are points of failure although to a lesser degree. But there will always be a "largest gateway", or the gateway that has the largest amount of assets on deposit / IOUs issued. A gateway always exposes a surface against which government force can be used. A government can disrupt gateway activities and cause its IOUs to become worthless. This could cause a loss of confidence in Ripple in general, and a wave of withdrawals, with other gateways going bankrupt or otherwise unable to conduct business. Similar to the recent Bitcoin crash from $266 to $57.

newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
April 15, 2013, 11:53:49 AM
#48
nothing new for ripple.
you can consider USA as ripple.

+1
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
April 15, 2013, 11:52:17 AM
#47
And while your at it please answer this ignorant question. If the government of any country wanted you to freeze peoples accounts until they provided proof of idedntity, can they legally force you to?
The nightmare scenario would be if, say, some foreign government declares some Ripple account held by someone who has violated that country's laws and insists we freeze that account. They could perhaps bring an action in a United States court or even threaten the lives of OpenCoin employees. If the network was decentralized, we'd have no ability to freeze accounts or make changes except in our own servers, which would just get outvoted by other servers.
newbie
Activity: 30
Merit: 0
April 15, 2013, 11:43:24 AM
#46
nothing new for ripple.
you can consider USA as ripple.
member
Activity: 106
Merit: 10
April 15, 2013, 11:26:24 AM
#45
Joelkatz,
Thanks for participating here, all the best to opencoin and ripple.
Please realise that few here believe this is a conspiracy, but any reassurances you provide, such as pitch and strategy, wouldn't be unwelcome.

The point of the thread is to figure why Average Jane with no interest in business, politics, economics, programming or anonymity, when investigating this new Ripple craze all the friendly ads are talking about, go even further out of her way to look into this novelty bitcoin money she may or may not have heard is created by drug criminals that are some how tied to lots of people in cyprus losing all their money.

ripple/OpenCoin will succeed. Because ripple.com is very cool and functional and a solution to a problem. They will weed out the understanding problems. The aspect of centralized meaning govermental control over the not-going-away-cryptocurrencies, that goes along with it, will not be understood by the (ignorant, stupid, opportunistic, degenerated and submissive) mainstream. Same as ever, including the talking by people like me Wink ...


And while your at it please answer this ignorant question. If the government of any
country wanted you to freeze peoples accounts until they provided proof of idedntity, can they legally force you to?

Of course they can and they will. Maybe not legally in the sense of the US-constitution, but - in my opinion - the patriot act allows that for sure.

Do you really think, OpenCoin will resist to a request from the US-goverment? This would mean to start a revolution and this is not, what investors want. They will never do this. They want to drive around in shiny cars and looking from the point of financial power onto the struggling people in the streets, while enjoying their self-talk about "changing the world into the future."

Conclusion: You can use and you probably will have to use ripple, but you can never ever trust them in way beyond running a functional software system in their own interest.



* They are also preparing a marketing camapaign with cool T-Shirts and stuff like that.


Taz
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
April 15, 2013, 10:37:17 AM
#44
Joelkatz,
Thanks for participating here, all the best to opencoin and ripple.
Please realise that few here believe this is a conspiracy, but any reassurances you provide, such as pitch and strategy, wouldn't be unwelcome.

The point of the thread is to figure why Average Jane with no interest in business, politics, economics, programming or anonymity, when investigating this new Ripple craze all the friendly ads are talking about, go even further out of her way to look into this novelty bitcoin money she may or may not have heard is created by drug criminals that are some how tied to lots of people in cyprus losing all their money.

And while your at it please answer this ignorant question. If the government of any country wanted you to freeze peoples accounts until they provided proof of idedntity, can they legally force you to?
member
Activity: 106
Merit: 10
April 15, 2013, 09:31:19 AM
#43
First, we didn't reserve the right to print money. 100 billion XRP is all there will ever be, unless in some distant future there's a consensus of validators to change it.

"..., unless in some distant future there's a consensus of validators to change it." is exactly reserving the right to print money.
Umm, sure, reserved to the public at large, not to OpenCoin. If in some far future the vast majority of Ripple users want to modify the system to create more XRP, we can't stop them. But how is that us reserving anything?

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I think the critics here are not about a company making profit. I don't think that most people here have problem with a private company issuing a crypto currency to the free market with the intention of making profit.

The critics here are much more about the deceptive propaganda. Like that double-tongued piece above.
Can you be more specific about exactly what you think is propaganda and why? I'm honestly having a hard time understanding what the criticism is.

No. It is absoluty clear what I am saying. No need to talk to a public-relation-agent and spend energy on avoiding his rhetoric traps.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
April 15, 2013, 08:16:55 AM
#42
Maybe in five years, in the middle of some establishment induced crisis, OpenCoin will announce something like that: "The goverment asked us to put some extra XRP into circulation, because of ... the crisis. We will, because of the severe nature of this very surprisingly and unexpected crisis, be responsible and inject xxx RP into the economy to help everyone (and to protect the country/world against this libertarian terrorists)". Satoshi cannot do this.
Satoshi could have done that in the early stages of Bitcoin -- he picked the 21 million number. Ripple is still in those early stages. To the extent that people worry that this will happen, that will be a drag on Ripple adoption which hurts OpenCoin. So we have every incentive to make sure we don't have this kind of control.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
April 15, 2013, 08:01:10 AM
#41
First, we didn't reserve the right to print money. 100 billion XRP is all there will ever be, unless in some distant future there's a consensus of validators to change it.

"..., unless in some distant future there's a consensus of validators to change it." is exactly reserving the right to print money.
Umm, sure, reserved to the public at large, not to OpenCoin. If in some far future the vast majority of Ripple users want to modify the system to create more XRP, we can't stop them. But how is that us reserving anything?

Quote
I think the critics here are not about a company making profit. I don't think that most people here have problem with a private company issuing a crypto currency to the free market with the intention of making profit.

The critics here are much more about the deceptive propaganda. Like that double-tongued piece above.
Can you be more specific about exactly what you think is propaganda and why? I'm honestly having a hard time understanding what the criticism is.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
Martijn Meijering
April 15, 2013, 03:00:43 AM
#40
"..., unless in some distant future there's a consensus of validators to change it." is exactly reserving the right to print money.

No more than is the case with Bitcoin. A large enough consensus can always change the rules, possibly leading to a fork.
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1004
April 15, 2013, 02:39:43 AM
#39
I think most of this discussion is so far not relevant. It isn't terribly interesting to discuss what happens if OpenCoin is untrue to their stated intent.

Let's assume they're honest, and further, that they're correct in some fundamental assumptions, namely:

1) They will have incentive to open-source it, and they will.
2) Ripple is better with XRP than without it.
3) They have/will-have neither the means nor incentive to create more XRP.

Now let's discuss... I honestly don't really know how to think of this system yet. I'd need to use it in practice to get a better sense of it. Does it just boil down to a better way to transfer existing units of value electronically? Whereas bitcoin is both the asset and the transaction network, Ripple is just the transaction network?

And how does XRP factor in exactly? How much is needed to execute a transaction? Can this change and how? XRP are used-up (eliminated) after a transaction is complete, right? How will they not run out?
newbie
Activity: 54
Merit: 0
April 15, 2013, 01:22:42 AM
#38

So the answer is yes, it would have been possible to create the Ripple distributed banking system without creating a new currency.  As for the justification:

The native currency allows us to have something to give away to drive adoption. The native currency allows the development of the software to be funded. And I've yet to hear of any plausible way it could harm the use of Ripple as a payment system.

... I'm left wondering why I could not use the same reasoning to introduce a new currency along with my new taco catering venture, or airline, or chain of car washes.  Of course many such ventures do just that in the form of "miles" etc, they just don't have the ambition to take over the role of money worldwide.

I asked because I like the Ripple idea.  But I can't help concluding that dreams of being a kinder, gentler, and richer Ben Bernanke have seriously distorted the incentives of the venture.

full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
April 15, 2013, 12:33:17 AM
#37
No one seems to be answering the question of "why would the public use bitcoin if ripple allows free/low cost transfers of fiat money anywhere anytime?"

Would it also make the incentive for businesses to accept bitcoin go away?

The general public doesn't know anything about central banks, so the whole "financial freedom from banks" deal alone won't be enough to get them to switch from fiat to bitcoin
member
Activity: 106
Merit: 10
April 14, 2013, 11:28:48 PM
#36
ar fetched to me.

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Also, I think you could relieve some of the distrust people have by showing us your pitch deck you gave Andreesen. That would show all of us your motivations/strategy pretty clearly.
I'll see what I can do about it, but I wouldn't expect it will change anything. You can't refute a conspiracy theory with evidence.

On the other hand, it is not possible to talk with someone in the sense of open, sincere communication and "truth"-finding, who is part of a conspiration.
member
Activity: 106
Merit: 10
April 14, 2013, 11:21:53 PM
#35
First, we didn't reserve the right to print money. 100 billion XRP is all there will ever be, unless in some distant future there's a consensus of validators to change it.

"..., unless in some distant future there's a consensus of validators to change it." is exactly reserving the right to print money.

I think the critics here are not about a company making profit. I don't think that most people here have problem with a private company issuing a crypto currency to the free market with the intention of making profit.

The critics here are much more about the deceptive propaganda. Like that double-tongued piece above.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
April 14, 2013, 11:17:44 PM
#34
I'm still learning about Ripple, but if you had very quick, widespread adoption of Ripple prior to you open sourcing the server code, then wouldn't you have a very big incentive to keep Ripple centralized?
I don't think so. You'd have to suppose that adoption is so widespread that open sourcing the code wouldn't significantly increase it and that would still outweigh the harm done by not open sourcing as we had promised. That seems pretty far fetched to me.

Quote
Also, I think you could relieve some of the distrust people have by showing us your pitch deck you gave Andreesen. That would show all of us your motivations/strategy pretty clearly.
I'll see what I can do about it, but I wouldn't expect it will change anything. You can't refute a conspiracy theory with evidence.
full member
Activity: 174
Merit: 101
April 14, 2013, 10:52:56 PM
#33
Joel, since you mentioned the incentive question regarding XRP, can you help me out please?  I just can't seem to get an answer to this question:

Would it have been possible to create Ripple without XRP?  Could you have just tracked the liabilities in their native currencies?

If the answer is "yes, it would have been possible, but the system with XRP is so much better," could you please touch on the reputational question.
It depends what you mean by "create Ripple". It would have been possible to create a system that does some of what Ripple does without a native currency. But it would be very different from the Ripple system we actually created.

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And in truth, the rhetoric is actually more believable with OpenCoin having a profit motive. For example, if we had no profit motive to do so, why should people be confident we're actually going to decentralize the system? Why should they be confident that we'll work as hard as we can to drive adoption so they can feel comfortable putting their own resources into Ripple? Because we have a big stake, there's no reason not to believe us when we say we'll work to make that stake worth more.


I'm still learning about Ripple, but if you had very quick, widespread adoption of Ripple prior to you open sourcing the server code, then wouldn't you have a very big incentive to keep Ripple centralized? Also, I think you could relieve some of the distrust people have by showing us your pitch deck you gave Andreesen. That would show all of us your motivations/strategy pretty clearly.
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