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Topic: rpietila Altcoin Observer - page 134. (Read 387493 times)

legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1002
amarha
July 27, 2014, 03:45:16 PM
I don't get this obsession with bloat. No one in their right mind is going to download the full Bitcoin blockchain so they can spend $10 buying bread at their local shop. So why the hell are people complaining about Monero blockhain bloat? The vast majority of people are not going to be using the full client running a full node. That's just crazy to expect that. Even Bitcoin development is going in this general direction, by getting rid of the QT client and moving to a Core client because in the future, the Core program will be running the full node and third parties will develop the wallet program.


100 Petabytes scaling and thus can't scale without centralization of mining. See upthread details.

So we have people on one hand saying 1TB or some more, and then on the other end you're saying 100PB(?!). Whose estimate is closer to reality?

If it actually is in the 1-2TB range I think that's pretty manageable to be honest. Most people want to use thin clients anyway.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
July 27, 2014, 03:39:02 PM
I don't get this obsession with bloat. No one in their right mind is going to download the full Bitcoin blockchain so they can spend $10 buying bread at their local shop. So why the hell are people complaining about Monero blockhain bloat? The vast majority of people are not going to be using the full client running a full node. That's just crazy to expect that. Even Bitcoin development is going in this general direction, by getting rid of the QT client and moving to a Core client because in the future, the Core program will be running the full node and third parties will develop the wallet program.


100 Petabytes scaling and thus can't scale without centralization of mining. See upthread details.
full member
Activity: 211
Merit: 100
July 27, 2014, 03:38:36 PM
I don't get this obsession with bloat. No one in their right mind is going to download the full Bitcoin blockchain so they can spend $10 buying bread at their local shop. So why the hell are people complaining about Monero blockhain bloat? The vast majority of people are not going to be using the full client running a full node. That's just crazy to expect that. Even Bitcoin development is going in this general direction, by getting rid of the QT client and moving to a Core client because in the future, the Core program will be running the full node and third parties will develop the wallet program.

hmm, lets think about it for a while.. what could go wrong when there are only a couple of NSA computers running the full nodes...
full member
Activity: 211
Merit: 100
July 27, 2014, 03:33:19 PM
Nothing will be truly anonymous until there is an IP solution (not I2P, which is offers only illusory protection) and open source hardware. Bloat is an issue, no matter how much you try to divert attention away. It exposes your coin to centralization and makes it easier to attack the network.

There is no indication that I2P offers "illusory" protection. There are theoretical attacks that remain to be proven, and there are demonstrable attacks that are quickly patched. It is not perfect, but again, it is an added layer of obfuscation that will make it exceedingly hard for an advanced and resourceful attacker to even determine whether you are running Monero or not.

Well, there is this timing analysis attack for example and instead of labeling it theoretical, you could perhaps forward the previously asked question to the i2p team that is supposed to work on the i2p monero integration: is it possible to add some sort of random delay or something that would make this attack not possible?
full member
Activity: 133
Merit: 100
July 27, 2014, 03:29:24 PM
I don't get this obsession with bloat. No one in their right mind is going to download the full Bitcoin blockchain so they can spend $10 buying bread at their local shop. So why the hell are people complaining about Monero blockhain bloat? The vast majority of people are not going to be using the full client running a full node. That's just crazy to expect that. Even Bitcoin development is going in this general direction, by getting rid of the QT client and moving to a Core client because in the future, the Core program will be running the full node and third parties will develop the wallet program.
donator
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1060
GetMonero.org / MyMonero.com
July 27, 2014, 03:26:52 PM
I'm really interested here in Open Source Hardware. Guys - anyone have any more information here?
With the NSA revelations, I really don't trust any of the hardware manufacturers (but who does?)

IAS

Not really, you still have to trust someone to build that hardware.

There's a running joke when discussing "secure" systems, that if you want it to be "truly" secure you have to design and build the hardware yourself, and then write the OS yourself. And it has to have no exploitable bugs. In other words, good luck with that;)

When you take usability into account (presumably you don't want to jump through tons of hoops for every message you send and every penny you spend), the best you can do is exercise a moderate amount of caution, and use older, known cryptography on older, known hardware.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
July 27, 2014, 03:21:40 PM
"just a reminder that the Monero blockchain is going to be linearly larger than Bitcoin's when it reaches the same amount of use!"

Incorrect on 'linearly'. Bitcoin can theoretically be pruned. Monero can't theoretically be (prove me wrong).

most certainly not in some half-baked way that has potentially far-reaching and devastating consequences.

And I agree that BoolBerry's pruning probably has a flaw that inevitably leads (or is vulnerable) to some divergent scenario such as gridlock or simply isn't what is claimed. I would need to look closer to be sure, and I don't have time. But I remember thinking about the possibilities in some detail months ago when I learned of Cryptonote and I always thought of divergent scenarios to every pruning strategy.

As I said upthread, any user you mix with can stop pruning for everyone else in the mix by not spending his coin, thus there are not enough spends on the ring to prune it. And rings can overlap each other thus the number of independent variables in the pruning equation can explode.

Even if force everyone to spend their coins periodically, that just shifts the problem forward in the blockchain and doesn't solve it.
donator
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1060
GetMonero.org / MyMonero.com
July 27, 2014, 03:19:07 PM
Nothing will be truly anonymous until there is an IP solution (not I2P, which is offers only illusory protection) and open source hardware. Bloat is an issue, no matter how much you try to divert attention away. It exposes your coin to centralization and makes it easier to attack the network.

There is no indication that I2P offers "illusory" protection. There are theoretical attacks that remain to be proven, and there are demonstrable attacks that are quickly patched. It is not perfect, but again, it is an added layer of obfuscation that will make it exceedingly hard for an advanced and resourceful attacker to even determine whether you are running Monero or not.

I also never said bloat was a non-issue, but that we were aware of it and we were not concerned with solving it right now, most certainly not in some half-baked way that has potentially far-reaching and devastating consequences. We aren't diverting attention from it, we are solving things around it whilst we consider existing solutions and invent brand new ones.

If it will make you feel like you won some sort of non-existent argument, you are welcome post once a day on the Monero topic and say "just a reminder that the Monero blockchain is going to be linearly larger than Bitcoin's when it reaches the same amount of use!"
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
July 27, 2014, 03:01:26 PM
It's a healthy market, people believe in Monero because it was the first fair CryptoNote coin. There are only several other types of coins on the market:

1. Bitcoin
2. Other CryptoNote coins that are technically strong like Monero but have no leading market edge and are essentially "Litecoin/Litenotes"
3. Gen 2 coins like Ethereum and Nxt. However Nxt economy will never be strong because newly minted coins are essential for economic freedom and movement, and Ethereum is early days.
4. All the scam coins, (XC, Dark, Black, etc...)

Really, the only decent coins that are worth our time is Bitcoin, Monero and Ethereum.

I think the Ethereum IPO will be so large it might be worth waiting until the coin is release before investing though.

The market for something totally new still seems to be ripe.

You forgot Zerocash which should splash down before the end of 2014. But seems to me it will likely not be prunable either?

Ethereum has $6 million marketcap (and counting...) yet won't have anonymity in its first generation and they didn't even select a PoW yet?

legendary
Activity: 1442
Merit: 1000
Antifragile
July 27, 2014, 02:58:21 PM
I don't see any overt flaw with the fundamentals apart from the bloat. I'm even open to investing in Monero, if the bloat can be fixed. Anonymint has stated that it cannot, but perhaps he can be proven wrong, who knows?

 My main issue is with the Monero shills who try to misrepresent where Monero is in terms of completion. Just read your own thread to see the crippling issues that people deal with on a daily basis.

You're conflating - the conversation you were involved in was about the "best" anonymous coin, not the most usable or the most feature-complete. The person referred to ZeroCoin, so clearly they're talking about the "best" with regards to the degree of anonymity provided.

Bloat is something we know about, but not something we're concerned with solving right now, so stop bringing it up. Rehashing it is a strawman argument.
Nothing will be truly anonymous until there is an IP solution (not I2P, which is offers only illusory protection) and open source hardware. Bloat is an issue, no matter how much you try to divert attention away. It exposes your coin to centralization and makes it easier to attack the network.

I'm really interested here in Open Source Hardware. Guys - anyone have any more information here?
With the NSA revelations, I really don't trust any of the hardware manufacturers (but who does?)

IAS
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
July 27, 2014, 02:51:37 PM
It's pretty obvious that Boolberrys biggest problem is, it has no team.

No its biggest (first-class) problem is it doesn't have a single feature that can't be adopted quickly by Monero and which makes it extremely compelling "must have" coin. A team won't change that.


So... not having a feature that can't be ripped off by XMR is a problem?

If it had features which were driving a market which is larger than XMR, which would not get adopted by XMR except on a lag, it could potentially accelerate past XMR in adoption. Yet apparently it is just trying to make marginal improvements to the same Cryptonote market XMR is.

Monero has a superior name, larger team, larger market cap, more investment, more funding.

It isn't beyond the realm of remote possibilities that the BBR developer could possibly surprise us and release some new feature that accomplished the above. But not likely.


It's pretty obvious that Boolberrys biggest problem is, it has no team.

No its biggest (first-class) problem is it doesn't have a single feature that can't be adopted quickly by Monero and which makes it extremely compelling "must have" coin. A team won't change that.

The second non-starter problem is the name isn't professional, i.e. it reflects on a lack of marketing.

Boolberry has had a working Official GUI Wallet for some time now. Boolberry has had the ability to prune the size of the blockchain since start. Monero has not quickly adopted either of these features.

If I look outside the Bitcointalk space, I see many products with different names that seemed bad at the time. The products did well. Google used a mispelled name. Yahoo is a derogatory term for a "rough" person.

Pruning the block chain doesn't drive a large user adoption at this stage, because no one knew it was important and it doesn't matter yet. And I doubt your pruning works.

The GUI could have been big positive for adoption if your target market were dummies. What did you do to market this advantage to the less technical? Whereas most of the serious miners here are apparently willing to slog through a command line near-term if they believe (a GUI is coming soon and) that coin has greater serious support.

Things that drive user adoption are quite different and a marketing guru understands this intuitively.

Apologies for my frankness.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
July 27, 2014, 02:44:18 PM
I give up trying to talk to you - you simply don't appear to actually read what other people write, and respond to some strawman argument of your own creation.

My post was very clear:  *A hard-fork is effective if enough of the exchanges, merchants, and actual users play along with it.*

And you came back and said "NO!  The users would have to buy in."

In the time-honored tradition of the Internet:  Plonk.

Work on your reading comprehension. Smooth's reply can help you comprehend.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 500
July 27, 2014, 02:43:46 PM
I don't see any overt flaw with the fundamentals apart from the bloat. I'm even open to investing in Monero, if the bloat can be fixed. Anonymint has stated that it cannot, but perhaps he can be proven wrong, who knows?

 My main issue is with the Monero shills who try to misrepresent where Monero is in terms of completion. Just read your own thread to see the crippling issues that people deal with on a daily basis.

You're conflating - the conversation you were involved in was about the "best" anonymous coin, not the most usable or the most feature-complete. The person referred to ZeroCoin, so clearly they're talking about the "best" with regards to the degree of anonymity provided.

Bloat is something we know about, but not something we're concerned with solving right now, so stop bringing it up. Rehashing it is a strawman argument.
Nothing will be truly anonymous until there is an IP solution (not I2P, which is offers only illusory protection) and open source hardware. Bloat is an issue, no matter how much you try to divert attention away. It exposes your coin to centralization and makes it easier to attack the network.
donator
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1060
GetMonero.org / MyMonero.com
July 27, 2014, 02:31:29 PM
I don't see any overt flaw with the fundamentals apart from the bloat. I'm even open to investing in Monero, if the bloat can be fixed. Anonymint has stated that it cannot, but perhaps he can be proven wrong, who knows?

 My main issue is with the Monero shills who try to misrepresent where Monero is in terms of completion. Just read your own thread to see the crippling issues that people deal with on a daily basis.

You're conflating - the conversation you were involved in was about the "best" anonymous coin, not the most usable or the most feature-complete. The person referred to ZeroCoin, so clearly they're talking about the "best" with regards to the degree of anonymity provided.

Bloat is something we know about, but not something we're concerned with solving right now, so stop bringing it up. Rehashing it is a strawman argument.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 500
July 27, 2014, 02:25:33 PM
I don't see any overt flaw with the fundamentals apart from the bloat. I'm even open to investing in Monero, if the bloat can be fixed. Anonymint has stated that it cannot, but perhaps he can be proven wrong, who knows?

 My main issue is with the Monero shills who try to misrepresent where Monero is in terms of completion. Just read your own thread to see the crippling issues that people deal with on a daily basis.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1012
Still wild and free
July 27, 2014, 02:15:30 PM
Whats the best anon coin to date? What about Zerocash?  Huh
There's no viable solution as of yet. No matter what you buy, you're investing in promises.
Monero is fully working 100% anonymous transactions, the code is open source just look for yourself.
Monero is a year or more away from being a viable option. Functional does not necessarily imply viable.
What are you even talking about?
The network works fine, transactions get sent and confirmed, difficulty has doubled in 10 days.
You are either misinformed or delusional if you think that Monero is totally anonymous or anywhere near ready for real world use. What is it about Monero that spawns such an arrogant community?

As I know you as a long time Monero-hater, I'm sure you could provide some actual facts or tangible thoughts to support this kind of super vague undermining of  Monero's fundamentals. The burdden of proof is on your side with such stupid claims. Call me arrogant if you like, but I'm just asking you to support your post with something.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 500
July 27, 2014, 02:10:13 PM
Whats the best anon coin to date? What about Zerocash?  Huh
There's no viable solution as of yet. No matter what you buy, you're investing in promises.
Monero is fully working 100% anonymous transactions, the code is open source just look for yourself.
Monero is a year or more away from being a viable option. Functional does not necessarily imply viable.
What are you even talking about?
The network works fine, transactions get sent and confirmed, difficulty has doubled in 10 days.
You are either misinformed or delusional if you think that Monero is totally anonymous or anywhere near ready for real world use. What is it about Monero that spawns such an arrogant community?
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1012
Still wild and free
July 27, 2014, 02:08:19 PM
Whats the best anon coin to date? What about Zerocash?  Huh
There's no viable solution as of yet. No matter what you buy, you're investing in promises.
Monero is fully working 100% anonymous transactions, the code is open source just look for yourself.
Monero is a year or more away from being a viable option. Functional does not necessarily imply viable.
What are you even talking about?
The network works fine, transactions get sent and confirmed, difficulty has doubled in 10 days.

How big is the Monero blockchain?


Around 1.7GB on disk currently, since it's using non-optimized standard datastructures, storing redundant information on the HD.
The actual relevant amount of data is closer to 800MB.
You can see it here:
http://monerochain.info/charts/bcsize

Notice how the increasing of the size has slowed down end of June, after the dust-transaction-fix was deployed by pool operators.
sr. member
Activity: 253
Merit: 252
July 27, 2014, 01:50:55 PM
Whats the best anon coin to date? What about Zerocash?  Huh
There's no viable solution as of yet. No matter what you buy, you're investing in promises.
Monero is fully working 100% anonymous transactions, the code is open source just look for yourself.
Monero is a year or more away from being a viable option. Functional does not necessarily imply viable.
What are you even talking about?
The network works fine, transactions get sent and confirmed, difficulty has doubled in 10 days.

How big is the Monero blockchain?
sr. member
Activity: 469
Merit: 250
English Motherfucker do you speak it ?
July 27, 2014, 01:39:14 PM
Whats the best anon coin to date? What about Zerocash?  Huh
There's no viable solution as of yet. No matter what you buy, you're investing in promises.
Monero is fully working 100% anonymous transactions, the code is open source just look for yourself.
Monero is a year or more away from being a viable option. Functional does not necessarily imply viable.
What are you even talking about?
The network works fine, transactions get sent and confirmed, difficulty has doubled in 10 days.
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