Russia can evade sanction through cryptocurrencies - page 7.

Darker45

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on March 15, 2022, 08:09:51 AM

Quote from: Darker45 on March 14, 2022, 11:02:03 PM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on March 14, 2022, 04:31:10 AM

Quote from: Darker45 on March 13, 2022, 11:16:33 PM

As to Russia itself or its banks and huge companies, I think it's hard for them to evade sanctions through cryptocurrencies. But to the Russians who are now deprived of ways to transmit money from their country to the other parts of the world and vice versa, crypto could help. Crypto could also help those who are keeping cash savings as the value of the ruble is spiraling down. And we also know that a lot of Russians are leaving the country. They are limited as to the amount of cash they could carry. Bitcoin is a great option.

It's definitely hard, but in my opinion, it's not impossible. What use is POW in Bitcoin, what use is the preservation of decentralization and censorship-resistance? How long must the protocol keep chugging along until everyone understands the true nature of Bitcoin?

The use of Bitcoin to evade sanctions is limited primarily because of the nature of the sanctions themselves. Currently, the strongest sanctions are directed at Russia's oil and gas, the country's lifeblood. The US has banned all of Russia's oil and gas. EU countries have also greatly reduced their dependence on Russian oil and gas imports. Germany has also halted the Nord Stream 2 gas project.

That's true, but they can start mining Bitcoin by using their stockpiles of oil, and their unused supply of natural gas, and sell virgin Bitcoins, which has higher value.

Well, it's not gonna make them evade the current sanctions but I think it's worth it. Russia should explore Bitcoin mining considering that they have abundant supply of oil and gas. They have the resources to build the largest Bitcoin mining farm in the world. In effect, they will also be earning huge in a currency that cannot be bullied nor censored.

But I wonder how western countries would begin to treat Bitcoin if Russia is fully into it.

Quote

Financial sanctions include freezing the Russian central bank's hundreds of billions of dollar reserves, freezing the assets of Russian oligarchs, among others.

Huge international companies like Coca-Cola, McDonald's, Pepsi, Starbucks, Heineken, Shell, ExxonMobil, Levi's, Nestle, Procter & Gamble, Unilever, and many others have also implemented their own version of sanctions.

In all of these, Bitcoin couldn't be used as a tool of evasion.

That cannot be debated, but as a protocol, and an open, permissionless system that can't be turned off by third parties, wouldn't you agree that Bitcoin is useful? That's where it starts. The dark markets/black markets are next.

I completely agree, although, again, there might be grave repercussions as to Bitcoin's perception once the enemy is making the most out of it. Western countries and the western media might once again paint Bitcoin in a bad light. Moreover, Bitcoin regulations would definitely be at its tightest.

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Quote from: Marvell1 on March 14, 2022, 11:01:09 AM

Crypto are just one of many solutions for Russia to avoid sanctions, Russia has been hoarding foreign exchange and gold for years, showing that it has taken this worst-case scenario into account.
Russia is a great power that won't easily stop fighting unless Ukraine makes concessions. If this war is prolonged, it will affect all the economies of the world, not just crypto, we will enter a new post-pandemic economic crisis.
What we all hope is that the war will end and everything will be back to the way it was.

Russia is not alone in this crisis. The European Union will also be hit with unprecedented sanctions, alongside the rest of the world. However, this crisis will not be solved by Western sanctions, because they can be bypassed by using physical gold and digital money. The West is trying to weaken the Russian state, but if sanctions will be maintained long-term, it will not only end up weakening the EU but the United States too.

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Quote from: Darker45 on March 14, 2022, 11:02:03 PM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on March 14, 2022, 04:31:10 AM

Quote from: Darker45 on March 13, 2022, 11:16:33 PM

As to Russia itself or its banks and huge companies, I think it's hard for them to evade sanctions through cryptocurrencies. But to the Russians who are now deprived of ways to transmit money from their country to the other parts of the world and vice versa, crypto could help. Crypto could also help those who are keeping cash savings as the value of the ruble is spiraling down. And we also know that a lot of Russians are leaving the country. They are limited as to the amount of cash they could carry. Bitcoin is a great option.

It's definitely hard, but in my opinion, it's not impossible. What use is POW in Bitcoin, what use is the preservation of decentralization and censorship-resistance? How long must the protocol keep chugging along until everyone understands the true nature of Bitcoin?

The use of Bitcoin to evade sanctions is limited primarily because of the nature of the sanctions themselves. Currently, the strongest sanctions are directed at Russia's oil and gas, the country's lifeblood. The US has banned all of Russia's oil and gas. EU countries have also greatly reduced their dependence on Russian oil and gas imports. Germany has also halted the Nord Stream 2 gas project.

That's true, but they can start mining Bitcoin by using their stockpiles of oil, and their unused supply of natural gas, and sell virgin Bitcoins, which has higher value.

Quote

Financial sanctions include freezing the Russian central bank's hundreds of billions of dollar reserves, freezing the assets of Russian oligarchs, among others.

Huge international companies like Coca-Cola, McDonald's, Pepsi, Starbucks, Heineken, Shell, ExxonMobil, Levi's, Nestle, Procter & Gamble, Unilever, and many others have also implemented their own version of sanctions.

In all of these, Bitcoin couldn't be used as a tool of evasion.

That cannot be debated, but as a protocol, and an open, permissionless system that can't be turned off by third parties, wouldn't you agree that Bitcoin is useful? That's where it starts. The dark markets/black markets are next.

fullhdpixel

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Quote from: CaVO32 on March 12, 2022, 07:59:05 PM

I am also with you here. Bitcoin or any other crypto won't be their first alternative choice here but rather other assets like gold. Remember, China banned crypto miners already. So how can they trade crypto with China? So possibly one of the first alternatives is via convert their money to Chinese Yuan or buy gold. Bitcoin as well as crypto may be part of the alternatives but I don't think it would be their main option. They need to consider the other countries that may possibly accept their trade.

That is good if they have more alternative. I don't mean to feel positive towards Russia and I won't forget what they did with Ukraine but what I mean is the blame won't be put all directly to bitcoin or cryptos. China banned cryptos miners already but I think that was long time ago and I think there was a news last time that they re allow it again and also if mining is only banned, the trade can still continue.

Not only in the country of china but you are forgetting the fact that cryptos are online, which means it can be traded on other countries too. Oil is their main option because they have lots of it and then followed by crypto and last is gold.

Darker45

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on March 14, 2022, 04:31:10 AM

Quote from: Darker45 on March 13, 2022, 11:16:33 PM

As to Russia itself or its banks and huge companies, I think it's hard for them to evade sanctions through cryptocurrencies. But to the Russians who are now deprived of ways to transmit money from their country to the other parts of the world and vice versa, crypto could help. Crypto could also help those who are keeping cash savings as the value of the ruble is spiraling down. And we also know that a lot of Russians are leaving the country. They are limited as to the amount of cash they could carry. Bitcoin is a great option.

It's definitely hard, but in my opinion, it's not impossible. What use is POW in Bitcoin, what use is the preservation of decentralization and censorship-resistance? How long must the protocol keep chugging along until everyone understands the true nature of Bitcoin?

The use of Bitcoin to evade sanctions is limited primarily because of the nature of the sanctions themselves. Currently, the strongest sanctions are directed at Russia's oil and gas, the country's lifeblood. The US has banned all of Russia's oil and gas. EU countries have also greatly reduced their dependence on Russian oil and gas imports. Germany has also halted the Nord Stream 2 gas project.

Financial sanctions include freezing the Russian central bank's hundreds of billions of dollar reserves, freezing the assets of Russian oligarchs, among others.

Huge international companies like Coca-Cola, McDonald's, Pepsi, Starbucks, Heineken, Shell, ExxonMobil, Levi's, Nestle, Procter & Gamble, Unilever, and many others have also implemented their own version of sanctions.

In all of these, Bitcoin couldn't be used as a tool of evasion.

Marvell1

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Quidat on March 12, 2022, 06:59:18 PM

Quote from: Obito on March 12, 2022, 07:39:16 AM

The addresses that's sending large amounts of money are going to be investigated and if was proven to be used as a means to fund the war effort, I'm sure that people that has the power and influence are going to make sure that the Russian government won't be able to do that.

For now this is the only thing on which Bitcoin or crypto could really play on on which transactions would be truly anonymous but speaking on evasion on sanctions then it is possible but still be hard
considering that there are situations which do really needed up for those typical transactions and transfers which needing those typical behavior.
Lots of sanctions had been applied against them but doesnt seem that they are been affected that much.

You are right it remains difficult for Russia to evade the sanctions imposed on them through crypto, because not all financial transactions can be
done using crypto. There are some situations where Russia will still have to carry out transactions using fiat, but as you said, Russia seems not afraid of
the many sanctions that are applied to them. It couldn't be helped that Russia was a big country with a strong military, so they still had a way of
dealing with sanctions against them. I also think that the Russian government will not stop the war with so many sanctions against them, there must
be another way to resolve this conflict. If Russia is indeed going to end up relying on crypto for future important transactions, hopefully it doesn't have
a bad effect on the good name of crypto. Because right now the crypto market is in a bad situation, I hope that the war between Russia and Ukraine
will not have a big impact on the future of crypto.

Crypto are just one of many solutions for Russia to avoid sanctions, Russia has been hoarding foreign exchange and gold for years, showing that it has taken this worst-case scenario into account.
Russia is a great power that won't easily stop fighting unless Ukraine makes concessions. If this war is prolonged, it will affect all the economies of the world, not just crypto, we will enter a new post-pandemic economic crisis.
What we all hope is that the war will end and everything will be back to the way it was.

arwin100

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Quote from: sana54210 on March 14, 2022, 09:36:56 AM

Quote from: CaVO32 on March 12, 2022, 07:59:05 PM

I am also with you here. Bitcoin or any other crypto won't be their first alternative choice here but rather other assets like gold. Remember, China banned crypto miners already. So how can they trade crypto with China? So possibly one of the first alternatives is via convert their money to Chinese Yuan or buy gold. Bitcoin as well as crypto may be part of the alternatives but I don't think it would be their main option. They need to consider the other countries that may possibly accept their trade.

China banned it for citizens, but if Russian oligarchs could get their hands on some Chinese officials and make deals with them, I am sure it could be done. However I also believe that Russians could find some other nations to deal with as well.

I mean this is crypto and where it came from could be hidden if you are rich enough, all you have to do is get some "things" in return of your crypto, and that way you could cash that out in the future or even own things as well. Like they could literally use crypto to buy land area or ports with the money they have. For some reason Russians love ports, and that is what they could do with the money they turn into crypto (I mean oligarchs, not regular citizens)

They can adopt yuan temporarily while their main currency is been sanctioned by many entity. And this will be good to china since it possibly create demand for their own fiat also. They can start to mock up with USD as this could divide the demand of USD since there's yuan that might change everything in economic state. For now China is the solution of Russia so to win this war against western they should cooperate and do some strategic work together.

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Quote from: CaVO32 on March 12, 2022, 07:59:05 PM

I am also with you here. Bitcoin or any other crypto won't be their first alternative choice here but rather other assets like gold. Remember, China banned crypto miners already. So how can they trade crypto with China? So possibly one of the first alternatives is via convert their money to Chinese Yuan or buy gold. Bitcoin as well as crypto may be part of the alternatives but I don't think it would be their main option. They need to consider the other countries that may possibly accept their trade.

China banned it for citizens, but if Russian oligarchs could get their hands on some Chinese officials and make deals with them, I am sure it could be done. However I also believe that Russians could find some other nations to deal with as well.

I mean this is crypto and where it came from could be hidden if you are rich enough, all you have to do is get some "things" in return of your crypto, and that way you could cash that out in the future or even own things as well. Like they could literally use crypto to buy land area or ports with the money they have. For some reason Russians love ports, and that is what they could do with the money they turn into crypto (I mean oligarchs, not regular citizens)

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: Darker45 on March 13, 2022, 11:16:33 PM

As to Russia itself or its banks and huge companies, I think it's hard for them to evade sanctions through cryptocurrencies. But to the Russians who are now deprived of ways to transmit money from their country to the other parts of the world and vice versa, crypto could help. Crypto could also help those who are keeping cash savings as the value of the ruble is spiraling down. And we also know that a lot of Russians are leaving the country. They are limited as to the amount of cash they could carry. Bitcoin is a great option.

It's definitely hard, but in my opinion, it's not impossible. What use is POW in Bitcoin, what use is the preservation of decentralization and censorship-resistance? How long must the protocol keep chugging along until everyone understands the true nature of Bitcoin?

Darker45

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As to Russia itself or its banks and huge companies, I think it's hard for them to evade sanctions through cryptocurrencies. But to the Russians who are now deprived of ways to transmit money from their country to the other parts of the world and vice versa, crypto could help. Crypto could also help those who are keeping cash savings as the value of the ruble is spiraling down. And we also know that a lot of Russians are leaving the country. They are limited as to the amount of cash they could carry. Bitcoin is a great option.

Marvelman

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It is reported that Binance, Coinbase and Kraken are refusing to freeze Russian crypto accounts. However, it does not appear that these companies have received an official request from the their government to freeze these accounts. It was just an informal appeal from the Ukrainian government to impose such sanctions. Thus, if stronger sanctions are imposed against Russia, it is possible that these companies will follow the same path.

StanCrypt

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Quote from: _act_ on March 08, 2022, 03:36:05 AM

The Russia's central bank wanted cryptocurrencies to be banned in its country but the Russian president, Vladimir Putin said bitcoin mining and other crypto mining will be beneficial for Russia. Some people at that time have been supectimg this could be a move by the Russia's president that he is planning to invade Ukraine which will result to sanctions, thinking cryptocurrencies would be a means to evade sanctions and make it economically less effective.

Ukrainian Vice Prime Minister Mykhailo Fedorov demand crypto exchanges to freeze all Russian accounts so that the sanction can be effective, but most exchanges did not support this. I read few days ago that cryptocurrencies may not help in Russia sanction but FinCEN concluded that Russia can attempt to use cryptocurrencies to evade sanctions.

FinCEN Provides Financial Institutions with Red Flags on Potential Russian Sanctions Evasion Attempts

What is your take? What role can cryptocurrencies play in helping Russia sanctions evasion and to what extent can this be?

It is not news that Russian companies has a lot of cryptocurrency tools at their disposal to evade sanctions, ransomware and digital ruble are examples. I think the sanctions being imposed on Russia is even to their benefits mostly because the global market for cryptocurrencies and other digital assets has ballooned. My main concern is what the united states in up-to, legalizing cryptocurrencies in the middle of this war which in my own opinion was masterminded by the US is too much of a coincidence.

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Quote from: STT on March 12, 2022, 07:35:33 PM

That would be quite a humiliating U-turn to make and quite pathetic even by Putin's standards, I dont believe it especially. The plan of Russia and all the elite who rule over the population will be to avoid sanctions via gold which is a far larger market, longer established and also in demand by several trading partners. The middle east values gold and also Asia especially China who are a massive potential customer and until a few years back had no gold at all in their reserves so they want Russia to trade that gold to them and also the oil.
BTC really doesnt figure in all of this, the citizens will be aided I'd hope as they of course suffer the most from the poor actions of government like every country pretty much.

I am also with you here. Bitcoin or any other crypto won't be their first alternative choice here but rather other assets like gold. Remember, China banned crypto miners already. So how can they trade crypto with China? So possibly one of the first alternatives is via convert their money to Chinese Yuan or buy gold. Bitcoin as well as crypto may be part of the alternatives but I don't think it would be their main option. They need to consider the other countries that may possibly accept their trade.

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That would be quite a humiliating U-turn to make and quite pathetic even by Putin's standards, I dont believe it especially. The plan of Russia and all the elite who rule over the population will be to avoid sanctions via gold which is a far larger market, longer established and also in demand by several trading partners. The middle east values gold and also Asia especially China who are a massive potential customer and until a few years back had no gold at all in their reserves so they want Russia to trade that gold to them and also the oil.
BTC really doesnt figure in all of this, the citizens will be aided I'd hope as they of course suffer the most from the poor actions of government like every country pretty much.

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Quote from: Obito on March 12, 2022, 07:39:16 AM

The addresses that's sending large amounts of money are going to be investigated and if was proven to be used as a means to fund the war effort, I'm sure that people that has the power and influence are going to make sure that the Russian government won't be able to do that.

For now this is the only thing on which Bitcoin or crypto could really play on on which transactions would be truly anonymous but speaking on evasion on sanctions then it is possible but still be hard
considering that there are situations which do really needed up for those typical transactions and transfers which needing those typical behavior.
Lots of sanctions had been applied against them but doesnt seem that they are been affected that much.

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Quote from: _act_ on March 08, 2022, 03:36:05 AM

The Russia's central bank wanted cryptocurrencies to be banned in its country but the Russian president, Vladimir Putin said bitcoin mining and other crypto mining will be beneficial for Russia. Some people at that time have been supectimg this could be a move by the Russia's president that he is planning to invade Ukraine which will result to sanctions, thinking cryptocurrencies would be a means to evade sanctions and make it economically less effective.

Ukrainian Vice Prime Minister Mykhailo Fedorov demand crypto exchanges to freeze all Russian accounts so that the sanction can be effective, but most exchanges did not support this. I read few days ago that cryptocurrencies may not help in Russia sanction but FinCEN concluded that Russia can attempt to use cryptocurrencies to evade sanctions.

FinCEN Provides Financial Institutions with Red Flags on Potential Russian Sanctions Evasion Attempts

What is your take? What role can cryptocurrencies play in helping Russia sanctions evasion and to what extent can this be?

While big crypto exchanges aren't going to block all Russian accounts because, the way Binance explained it, they're not sure if it's legal to do that (and they're probably right that it's not), they are restricting those accounts that can be linked to government or belonging to people who are under sanctions. But I agree that avoiding these restrictions on a small-scale is possible (if the amounts of money are not big enough to raise concerns and there's a bunch of people involved). Putting large funds into or pulling them out of Bitcoin can prove much harder. Also, there isn't much to sell for Bitcoin when reserved funds are frozen and many assets are frozen as well, not to mention that it seems to me Putin doesn't want to abandon ruble and is thus unlikely to approve transferring what's left of Russia's budget into something like Bitcoin. So it's all good.

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That is not how it works. Actually, United States and Ukraine stretched it to cryptocurrencies and that includes exchange based on Russia.
Just like McDonald's they want them to pull out their businesses there or it will be a bigger problem for them in the future. They are watching and even Coinbase and Binance are being talked about their Russian users to be blocked.
War is way different today. Not that I like it but you can sit in your room with a computer and internet and be part of it.

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Quote from: _act_ on March 08, 2022, 03:36:05 AM

What is your take? What role can cryptocurrencies play in helping Russia sanctions evasion and to what extent can this be?

I hope it's not the case, because if Western countries see that crypto currencies circumvent all the sanctions than we could face direct bans on cryptos even if we had nothing to do with the Russian sanctions. It would shed a bad light on cryptos again.
Also I think that cryptos are no real alternative for the swift system to save Russian banks. Most of the bank subsidiaries in Europe deal in Euros, so they still would need to aquire large amounts of foreign currencies, just against cryptos and not the ruble. And then there are the large amounts of western companies who are leaving the Russian market. Which is having a big impact, a lot of employees are losing there jobs. I am not sure if cryptos could help here, because if it comes public that one of the major companies circumventes the sanctions it could become a PR debacle and ruin the public image.

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I think you people are severly underestimating the gigantic funds that an entire country like Russia has. Bitcoin has nowhere the market cap to compensate for that. Russia investing state funds into Bitcoin is nothing like El Salvador investing their state peanuts. We are talking about amounts in the trillions. Can you imagine the volatility? Any active investor would use the chance of Bitcoin going from 40k to 4 million to sell for profit and then Russias Bitcoins would drop in value. The Russian state is not going to do that...

The idea itself is possible. But only if half of the entire world aka every second country in the world was already hodling Bitcoin. And even then, Russia would have second thoughts because even then Bitcoin would be too volatile.

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Quote from: DrBeer on March 11, 2022, 02:12:47 PM

Quote from: LUCKMCFLY on March 11, 2022, 12:58:54 PM

......
It is that this is a consequence of the answers that Russia obviously had to give, but what is most impressive of all is Biden's actions with respect to Oil, he sent a special high command commission in the USA to speak with Maduro in Venezuela, then in the NYT it appears that they recognize Maduro as president, when they assumed that Guaidó was president, then they reach agreements such as Venezuela reopening operations with the USA for oil, and in turn they send oil specialists to help steal more than Venezuela, then Biden comes out saying that he does not want more Russian oil, I think this is a function that nobody expected, what other scenarios will Biden take to get out of trouble?

In general, the problem of sagging oil supplies seems to have been solved ...

Venezuela will sell oil to the United States.
Caracas intends to increase oil production in 2022 to 2-3 million barrels per day and sell it in the United States.
"Venezuela is open to investment, oil and gas production, oil and gas stability around the world, including the United States. We are ready to sell US oil and gas, we must not politicize economic issues," said Petroleos de Venezuela (PDVSA). President Nicolas Maduro.
Nothing personal, just business

US is considering lifting sanctions on Venezuela's oil industry, Maduro has also announced an increase in oil production to replace Russian supplies.
But this is difficult to do in the short term, given the heavy impact of years-long US sanctions on Venezuela's oil industry, which has been abandoned. Experts estimate it will take several years and cost billions of dollars to help Venezuela's oil industry recover.

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