Topic: Russian Gas ban - A problem for Europe or suicide for Russia? - page 57. (Read 14450 times)

Everyone who buys gas and oil in russia pays her a lot of money every day, and these funds will be used to arm and kill civilians. Each country in Europe will choose for itself what is important for it, buy cheap energy resources and understand that this is sponsoring a war, or refuse it and deprive the aggressor of funding. All countries will not refuse, but I believe that humanity will win over economic gain.

Many will disagree because majority of people lived worse in the countries controlled by USSR, as simple as that. The only ones who maybe lived better are those that were high in the communist parties of their countries (less common), or because they are looking at the past through rose-tinted glasses (more common).

Take Germany for example; the part of Germany (aka DDR, another non-democratic country that likes to use "democratic" in their name, like North Korea is doing) that was controlled by USSR had to build the wall, put barb wire and mine fields in order to stop people deflecting, and even that didn't stop it entirely as people were willing to risk their lives in order to reach the west. If situation was the opposite and people were running to the east then I would agree that people lived better there.

We have a similar situation here in Croatia (we were part of Yugoslavia that was socialist country for ~45 years), where people talk how communism was/is great and how they think that the way Outin runs Russia is great but they all fled to western Europe countries like Germany/Austria/Ireland instead going to the east. I wonder why .


Hm, I don't see many developed countries in the top 20-30 countries by suicide rates.

Interesting how "highest quality of life" means also highest suicide rates

You are asking the wrong question.
You should be asking how the fuck the European countries replace Russian energy imports? As long as they have no other option and no other plan on doing anything about it, they will rely on those imports and continue pouring money into Russia's pockets.

Both of them are having good relationship with Russia just like Europe has. They've also already increased their trades over the past month!

You are seriously misinformed.
There is no doubt that Russian military equipment is very weak but it is just as weak as their Western counterparts. Just look at the wars that US-NATO coalition have had in the past 7 decades. They are all loss after loss after loss. Majority of them they lose to weak militias that don't even have half-decent equipment! For fuck sake they lost to Cavemen called Taliban in Afghanistan that don't even know what technology is.

Name one western military equipment that has functioned as advertised? LOL

Well said. The thing is that European politicians made it even worse by not thinking it through with their (well intended, awfully implemented) green deal.
Now it depends on how the things go. The "gas for Rubles" was a bad move from Russia and the continuation with closing the pipe for certain countries is even worse for them.

Yes, Europe will suffer for some years (which will, interestingly, helps USA, which is exactly Russia's nightmare), but it will force them/us allow actual competition between the various possible suppliers, no longer favoring Russia. This will make, on long term, Europe stronger, USA richer and Russia poorer.
This, together with the full display of what's behind the image of the "great" Russian army, might cause long term troubles for Russia (and Japan is already hinting that, almost trying to force WW3).

Let's assume that Europe will act as a united front and resolutely refuse gas supplies from Russia (which is very doubtful, given the great unevenness in dependence on Russian gas in different European countries, but let's assume). Is it really necessary for Russia to completely replace the lost European market? Generally speaking, no, because the resulting shortage of gas supplies will provoke a further increase in gas prices throughout the world, and Russia will be able to receive the same money by supplying a smaller amount of gas. Given Russia's chronic budget surpluses and the very conservative budgeted oil and gas prices, Russia could be quite comfortable even if it loses significantly in energy export revenues or if it provides a large discount on them. Therefore, my opinion is that the rejection of Russian gas is economic suicide for Europe and an unfortunate temporary logistical discomfort for Russia.

In this scenario, it is not about the education in question but the resources that they have. You are right that it would be hard for these Euro countries to totally abandon the gas supplies from Russia because it has been established long time. These sanctions, I think, is not forever. Who knows, Russian people will oust Putin? So once Putin is out, their gas supply to the neighboring countries will resume. But for now, even if US or these Euro countries have tons of scientists, still they need to work on what kind of resources they have.

Europe is very much dependent on Russian gas not only for running their factories but also to keep their house warm. Europe wants to avoid an all-out war in their continent no matter what but it seems the USA has some other plan. They are selling arms to Ukraine with eyewash help when their aim is to prolong the war so that they could suck Russia's military arsenal through this war and continue arm business.


Many will disagree with you about it because USSR was not a supporter of capitalist ideology.

Sure the education in western countries seems much higher than in Russia, but there is a big issue here in Europa what we don't have and what Russia has a lot of. And that is natural resources. On paper Europe looks like a good continent with a lot of strong countries. But if the whole world trading would collapse, so would Europa. We are highly dependant on imports. The question is on what cost is Europe willing to cancel the gas trade with Russia? Buying gas from Russia makes the most sense for us because it's the closest country and they already have pipelines running to us. It takes years to build pipelines, we can't just change the infrastructure for gas overnight. There is a lot of good ideas how a nation can reduce it dependency on gas and move to other energy sources, the problem is that none of these options can be short term.  Also how long will these sanctions against Russia going to last? Should we never buy anymore gas from Russia? Not even in 5 or 10 years? I don't think it's possible to have forever lasting sanctions. The economic cost for Europe is much higher from the sanction than American or Asian countries.

And their opinion will divide into two popular answers, was better in USSR from those who have Russian roots and was worse in USSR for native country citizens. During USSR, in my country lots of factories were build, industry was working at full power. After USSR ended and our country became independent, every single factory now is either closed or on its place shopping mall is built.

Right now my country produce little by itself, and got almost everything imported - because imported goods fit euro standards. We produce milk, export it to other EU country (there, something is added into my, to fit euro standards. we dont have such factories in our country), and then buy it back for a higher price. Crazy. I can say that during USSR my life was better (even though I was a kid).

Back to topic - if Europe refuses Russian gas completely, Russia will find a place to sell it, or can substitute losses other resources. But the Europe will have hard time. In one of regions in my country, starting from May, gas price will be 4 times more than current. Private property can change gas heating into electric, or use granules, firewood at the end of the skates. But I cant imagine what will panel houses do.

Russia built a mousetrap called russian oil and gas. Its up to someone to invent a better mousetrap than what russia currently has.

An alternative that can solve energy demands in a more convenient and affordable fashion. For that we look to energy markets. New developments and innovations. Europe might switch to electric heaters powered by the electrical grid. But it would require improvement of grid infrastructure and power generation that isn't supplied by russian sources. There is a question of where funding for these projects would be supplied from.

Much of europe appears to lack the sunlight for alternative solar power. And wind to switch to windmill based energy. This results in nuclear and fossil fuel being deemed most appropriate for the region.

Hydrogen energy could be worth pursuing for europe(and no I'm not biased because of my username). That could be one available energy market russia lacks a dominant presence in. It has been said that current gasoline transportation and storage units can accommodate hydrogen fuel. Which means a good part of the necessary infrastructure is already in place.

There are hydrogen concept vehicles being driven and tested for all to see:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONICQ9Xcaug

The technology may finally be ready for prime time application.

You are right, Nations are dependent on each other; while some might be the major producers of certain commodities or services, they need a market to purchase them.

If you consider the situation in Russia, many EU countries are against their actions, but need to be lenient on sanctions as they get their oil and gas from them, that's the situation I was trying to point out in China; If they happen to take an action which puts them in disagreement with the West, heavy sanctions cannot easily be imposed as these Nations rely on raw materials from China. China of course would suffer if they lose the demand, but as the major suppliers, countries would struggle to find alternatives, just as they are doing with Russia.

Small correction: The majority of the world isn't dependent on China, 0 country is dependent on them alone because I have never seen Chinese people working for other nations. Economically, we all trade and we are dependent on each other. Countries are dependent on China the same way China is dependent on them.
China buys the US's debt by purchasing the US Bonds. This lowers the value of the Yuan and keeps manufacturing in China cheap but this benefits their export. This is a sacrifice to benefit in the future as it's already expected that China's Economy may overtake US Economy by 2030. China needs the rest of the world for its plans and the world needs China for its own plans, who is the smartest here, this is another question.

They can and will live a low profile life because they spend too much on the military.
I don't think that there will be civil unrest in the European countries because people here realize that war is no good and the Russia is not a reliable and peaceful partner. There is empathy toward Ukraine in European countries.


Okay, the world has become more human & civil. What about the recent history?

Do you know what the word Holodomor means? Holod - hunger & Mor - extermination. Russia killed people in Ukraine by hunger, they left people without food and because of this, people were even eating each-other, many instances of cannibalism were recorded.
In 2008 Russia invaded Georgia.
In 2014 Russia invaded Crimea.
In 2022 Russia invaded Ukraine.
We live in the 21st century, what's wrong with them?

Russia's gas ban will affect Europe and Russia.  Russia will lose a large source of financial revenue, causing a great impact on the economy.  Not to mention the US financial sanctions will make it difficult for Russian merchants to do business globally.  Europe has to pay more for energy, goods and other services.  The risk of a recession has also increased across the region.

The Russians are trying to do things that can somehow save their whole economic system from falling. They are trying to sell the gas at any price possible, they are even taking it to the mass media, this does straight away shows their desperation to sell the gas right now since they have stuck a literal war on their business at the moment.
There are certain EU countries which are more affected than the other ones like : Germany, Italy and France and at the end of the day they are tackling inflation in the prices of normal commodities making it harder for a general person to tackle the whole thing systemically.
The plan would be to somehow try and make things normal, it starts with Russia dropping down the weapons and taking responsibility for their bad decision, plus if that does not happen then the other EU countries might have to try and support the most vulnerable countries, try and provide them with gas somehow to curb the inflation.

The problem is that people have a hard time accepting that business and economic interests always come first, which is more than clear from this war. Of course, there are always exceptions, but in this particular case, the EU has once again shown that it is divided into several blocks that operate independently of the common policy. Hungary is playing its own game, the Baltic countries and Poland are advocating absolute sanctions, while Germany is trying to balance its actions towards Russia because it is most dependent on its gas.

As can be seen in my previous post, even our country has increased imports of Russian oil (which is not discussed in the media), all because a good part of that oil is sent to Serbia - which is again the case for itself as Russia's biggest ally in this part of Europe.

History has a lot to discover from where we are today. A reader will have to look back, what justice they look for when all we do here are just keep looting each other. Even the whole American continent was being divided in 3. The Canada for French, The south for Spain and the middle for UK and they don't mind whoever occupy that continent before them which they are branded as illegal immigrants when crossing borders.

If EU can't produce their own gas, they will be divided for the crisis will make people revolt. They better handle this before some of them make a deal with Russia for gas.

I didn't say that they like to live in poverty but that they have rather extensive experience when it comes to that. And its not like they can replace Putin on elections, even if they want to (and that is a question since many of them have been brainwashed by propaganda). The only way I see Putin being removed is death so until then nothing much can be done, and even when he is gone, chances are that someone similar will replace him.


That's literally how Norway became one of the richest country in the world, by selling oil and gas, without invading anyone. The only difference between them and Russians is that they used that money to increase quality of life of their people while in Russia selected few got rich while rest got little or nothing. And that's why an average Russian probably lives worse than even average citizen of one of the poorest EU countries, despite all of their natural wealth.


Poor excuse. What about half of the Europe that was controlled by USSR for more than four decades? I advise you to go to baltic countries, Poland, Czech republic, Slovakia, Hungary etc and ask them how it was for them.

Yes, they managed the highest quality of life by sucking other country's wealth not by farming and selling oil and gas. In the colonial age, European countries steal an enormous amount of wealth from Asia and Africa, and many countries still facing that's consequences.


Russia was devastated by the Mongols, Napoleon, Hitler, and many more. This country has been raised from ashes many times so it's clear they have a strong mindset of people. Russia's economy was already in bad shape pre-Ukraine war so I think they don't have anything to lose here. Also for a product below market price always have a buyer. If European doesn't want to buy Russian oil and gas other countries will at a discount rate.

Well, if the people of Russia like to live in poverty, it was still weak poverty. The main difficulties are ahead of them and they can no longer be avoided. Putin lives his own life and he almost doesn't give a damn about the population of Russia. Judging by the recent decisions he has made regarding Ukraine, he is not all right mentally. The Russians will suffer greatly from this in the next few decades.

 As for the effectiveness of the sanctions, it will need to be looked at at least by the end of this year. By then, everything will be revealed. Including the consequences for Russia of the war of conquest in Ukraine.

Don't worry about Europe. There will be some time limits. But this is nothing compared to what awaits Russia in the near future. If Russia still remains as such ...

Just business as usual, seen many times before. American companies were selling oil to Germany during WW2, our generals were making fortune by selling oil to Serbs during our war etc.


I was just about to write something like this when I saw your reply, and that's the thing that many in Western Europe don't understand, that Russian people are way more used to hardships than an average person in the west. Sure, those oligarchs will suffer but they can't overthrown Putin. That's why I think that all these sanctions won't do absolutely anything to persuade Putin to stop the war in Ukraine as we are not talking about some country where you have free elections so you can easily remove the government when you think that they are not doing the good job but essentially dictatorship where you go to prison if you say a bad thing about the war/president.