Reply to SuchmoonHere's the thing though. Many things in this invasion point to a systematic attempt to destroy and/or oppress Ukrainians as a nation - from Putin's war declaration speech denying even the existence of such nation, to the entire narrative of "denazification", which basically defines every Ukrainian as a nazi.
The language of numbers will help clarify. Let's compare the current conflict in Ukraine with Iraq in 2003.
I've made this comparison before, but that was
three months ago and a lot could change in the data during this time.
By the way, few people remember that the armed forces of Ukraine
participated in the war in Iraq. What the hell did they forget there, can anyone say?
According to the latest report on the OHCHR website, by July 11, 2022, 5024 civilians killed in
Ukraine.
In roughly the same period (three days less), 9222 civilians killed in
Iraq.
Since the civilian casualties in Iraq are much higher than in Ukraine, so I will ask a question based on your comment. Do you think that the US troops, including with the help of the armed forces of Ukraine, sought to deliberately destroy the Iraqis as a nation?
Civilian casualties in Ukraine, per monthFrom 24 February to 11 July 2022 (137 days)
| ____________________________ | |
| 24-28 February | 336 |
| March | 3046 |
| April | 665 |
| May | 456 |
| June | 362 |
| 1-11 July | 159 |
| Total | 5024 |
Civilian casualties in Iraq, per monthFrom 20 March to 1 August 2003 (134 days)
| ____________________________ | |
| 20-31 March | 3986 |
| April | 3448 |
| May | 545 |
| June | 597 |
| July | 646 |
| Total | 9222 |
Regarding the words of Putin, could you point out please a specific quote where, in your opinion, Putin denies the Ukrainian nation? Because I skimmed through the
transcript of Putin’s speech of February 24, 2022 and found only such phrases about Ukrainians there:
The current events have nothing to do with a desire to infringe on the interests of Ukraine and the Ukrainian people.
They are connected with the defending Russia from those who have taken Ukraine hostage and are trying to use it against our country and our people.
I would also like to address the military personnel of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.
Comrade officers,
Your fathers, grandfathers and great-grandfathers did not fight the Nazi occupiers and
did not defend our common Motherland to allow today’s neo-Nazis to seize power in Ukraine.
You swore the oath of allegiance to the Ukrainian people and not to the junta,
the people’s adversary which is plundering Ukraine and humiliating the Ukrainian people.
In refutation of your statements, in Putin's speeches on
July 12, 2021 and
March 3, 2022, there were phrases that Russians and Ukrainians are one people.
As for "denazification", it doesn't define all the inhabitants of Ukraine as neo-Nazis. As far as I understand this refers mostly to
- military neo-Nazi formations like
Azov,
Aidar,
Donbas,
Dnepr-1,
Right Sector and armed units on their side;
- radicals calling for murders on ethnic grounds;
- officials who conduct torchlight processions and forbid holding parades in honor of the USSR victory over Nazi Germany
- education officials who glorify the UPA and Stepan Bandera in Ukrainian textbooks etc.
For those who still saying that there are no Nazis in Ukraine, here is a direct evidence:
1. The Azov Battalion is
officially part of the National Guard of Ukraine
2. The Azov Battalion was even
recognized by US congressmen as neo-Nazi and that it poses a
terrorist threat3. The Azov Battalion conducted
training for children in a military camp, where they learned chants about "death to Muscovites."
There is no "equivalent" systematic attempt from Ukraine to destroy Russians as a nation. At most they want Russian forces to leave Ukrainian territory. Twist it all you want but the aggressor is Russia. No "what about" here.
There are no equivalent attempts because their military capabilities are too meager in relation to the Russian ones, especially in comparison with what they had five months ago. If you follow the
statements of the Advisor to the Head of the Office of the Ukrainian President about Russians, it may turn out to be a little different. He is in favor of forgetting the word "Russian" in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions. For your information, there are about 40% of Russians in
Donetsk and
Lugansk regions and 25% of Russians in
Kharkiv region.
And your words about the fact that the Russians were not destroyed - you can go to Mariupol and ask locals there, what do they think about the Russian army and the Azov battalion. About the Nazi Azov last month, an article was published in a
Greek newspaper, how Azov militants held Russian-speaking citizens of Mariupol as hostages. Here is a screenshot from there with translation into English.
There is also a
censored fragment from Spanish RTVE channel about Azov.
Reply to 1miauWell, link a credible German source where your position is explained. There's no credible source because my description is what's happening in Germany currently.
How do I know which German source you consider "credible"? We can play this football all day long. You can name a couple of sources that meet your criteria.
It's funny when a Putin apologist tries to quote a German source, they are always quoting the least credible outlets in Germany.
BILD Zeitung is based on rage, hate and fear. (or fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD)).
The only purpose of BILD is to sell their newspaper. And yes, what's selling better than "monster winter incoming, no gas for heating, we are all gonna die"
In your opinion, everyone who condemns the Nazis, opposes the killing of civilians and quotes Bild, are Putin's apologists? You have an interesting position in life, but in any case thank you for opening my eyes to Build. It looks like this is the same yellow press as the Russian Medusa, maybe a little better.
Tell me then please also, how do people in Germany feel about the Der Spiegel, which
removed from its website a video about Ukrainian soldiers held a woman hostage for two months? Such actions by Der Spiegel do not inspire much confidence.
Regarding possible gas shortages it is true, that it won't be easy to get independant from Russian gas, but it's important to achieve it.
And Putin will be totally pissed, when it's done and he can write as much propaganda pieces as he wants.
Russia will lose Europe as a purchaser for his gas long-term.
If the overwhelming majority of Germans intend to get rid of dependence on Russian gas, then I wish you good luck.
Sure, there's some sort of... uummmm... "Special Operation" ongoing in Ukraine?
Right?
Right. Just like in Ukraine in 2014, instead of a civil war, the Kyiv junta
announced an anti-terrorist operation
against civilians in Donbass.
But there's currently "total information boycott" operating in Russia, for example when people are calling the "special operation" a "war".
In fact, the Russian authorities do not care about almost everyone who calls this conflict a 'war'. And for
much harsher statements about Putin and the Russian army, they don’t put them in jail at all. Many well-known Russian journalists, popular bloggers, military experts call this a 'war' and no one touches them. Live TV presenters call this conflict a 'war', and then after a couple of seconds they correct themselves, adding that the war is not against Ukraine, but against the collective West or NATO. In Russia, if the ruling elite wants to, anyone can be arrested - "If there was a man, there would be an article"
<.
Specifically, this municipal deputy Gorinov received a prison term:
Officially - for the fact that he protested against the holding of a children's competition,
saying that "entertainment is unacceptable" wildness "against the background of hostilities in a neighboring state".
Unofficially, this is an indicative flogging to demotivate other people with similar ideas, as well as for the fact that he supported the Navalnists (like Ilya Yashin), at the initiative of which sanctions were imposed on many members of the Russian elite in the West and their bank accounts were frozen.
Naturally, I consider this an unfair decision, as in principle with
Assange. However, even such a punishment is much milder than in Ukraine. A few days ago, the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine
reported that it brought 163 people to criminal liability for collaboration activities. Simply put, if a person from Ukraine publicly supports Russia, then he will be imprisoned. I suspect that hotheads in the Ukrainian SBU, for the words "special operation", the Russian flag, for the symbols Z or V, not only hurt, but simply shoot, as they
executed a member of the negotiating delegation for suspicions of pro-Russian views, despite the fact that there is
no official death penalty in Ukraine.
I noticed that you write WAR in capslock. Thank you, this gave me courage, now I am one step closer to overthrowing the Putin's regime.
@1miau tell me your thoughts. How do Ukraine and Russia manage to fight each other, but at the same time, Russian gas
continues to flow through Ukrainian territory and no one bombs this pipe? Even during the military operations, European officials can freely travel to Kyiv, and why, during the WAR, Russia does not bomb the roads along which weapons are brought from Europe and does not bomb TV towers, as the main mouthpiece of Ukrainian propaganda? Somehow it does not fit, in my opinion, what do you think?
Reply to paxmaoGenocide is not only killing, it is about the 2 million people deported from Ukraine and the forced "nationalisation" of Ukrainians in occupied areas. Facts and proof are easy, as the RF is not being particularly effective at hiding. As far as presenting and following due process, well... Adolf Putin will only answer if he ever looses political grip in the RF -in which case he will have much bigger problems than being judged.
The information you provide about the forcible deportation of Ukrainian residents to Russia is very similar to the Ukrainian fake, picked up by the Western media. Please, refer to independent authoritative sources, such as UNICEF or UN, confirming your words. In April 2022, Director of Emergency Programs at UNICEF Manuel Fontaine
said that he had no evidence of the forced deportation of Ukrainian children to Russia.
You seem to be unknowingly confusing forced deportation with the evacuation of Ukrainian civilians from war zones. Do you think it would be better for Ukrainian civilians to stay in dangerous areas during the bombing? If you at least turn on the logic and begin to analyze your claim about the "deportation" of Ukrainians to Russia, then if Russia, in your opinion, is engaged in the genocide of the Ukrainian population, then why does it spend resources on transporting them to Russia and their further provision there, and not leaving them in battlefields?
It also looks like a Ukrainian stuffing about the forced nationalization of Ukrainians. For your information, Russia is a
multinational country that does not infringe on the rights of national minorities. In Russia, nationality is not lost upon obtaining Russian citizenship. On the territory of Russia there are multiple national territorial entities where a second state language is adopted. Russia, unlike Ukraine, does not engage in forced nationalization.
You are shameless speaking about brainwashing in the same post you quote this. But I take good note: Kherson, in your view, is Ukrainian.
The
website of the VTV company is located in the Ukrainian domain, this source provides information in Ukrainian. That is, in your opinion, when the Russian army enters a Ukrainian city, then local television in this city automatically ceases to be Ukrainian? The Kherson region is actually controlled by Russian troops, but officially it is still part of Ukraine, until a referendum is held there and before being accepted into Russia, which is why I called the site Ukrainian. Well, shouldn't I call him Russian? On the
site that you shared, they advised to be critical of the content of such channels as VTV, but I would add to this that people should be critical of any information.
The Kherson VTV channel could not publish anything at all in the interests of the "occupiers", but there they posted material that doesn't coincide with the Western agenda, telling the info about the supply of weapons to Ukraine that brings death to civilians.
“Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime.” - Pass this up your chain of controllers to Adolf Putin.
The French moralist Jean de La Bruyere coined a continuation of this statement in the 17th century: “If poverty is the mother of all crimes, lack of intelligence is their father.”
So far, judging by what European and American officials are doing in relation to Russia, it looks like shooting at their own legs, they completely neglect the national interests in favor of the Americans.
PS. I don't know Adolf Putin, but I've heard how children and teenagers usually try to prick an opponent and tease each other by inventing different nicknames. You think 'some agents' read you and get angry? Frankly, judging by the number of views on this topic, they most likely do not even know about this forum, otherwise here would be an influx of Kremlin bots.
Reply to TwitchySealNot a single leading Western Media eh? ... No wonder the Trumptards love Putin.
He's just another victim of the Media. Give them a story and finish it with "and the MeDiA WoNt RePoRt ThIs" and they eat it up.
Congratulations on the find, but the only article (?) you mentioned in the Western press dryly states that the strikes were carried out on the Donetsk market, but does not directly state that it was the Ukrainian army that carried out the attack. Literally in a few words, the statements of the Donetsk news agency are given first, but the last word is left to the Ukrainian side, blaming the Russian side, leaving it in question who is responsible for this missile attack. Although this statement by the Ukrainian side, in terms of the level of delirium, is comparable to a crazy statement, such as, for example, that the Polish artillery attacked the Ukrainian city of Lvov. But for some reason, such nonsense is usually not written in the Western press, but here for some reason they gave up slack.
Reply to mv1986I am still waiting for the moment when you make a clear cut argument about Ukrainians intentionally attacking civilians on Russian territory. For now, the Ukrainians defend with whatever they have to keep alive agreements that were once signed with Russia.
I don't quite understand you. Are you asking for evidence or asking why the Ukrainian army is doing this? Whatever, I will answer both questions.
At the beginning of the month, there was shelling of the Russian city of Belgorod, which was reported in the
media. According to a representative of the Russian Foreign Ministry, this strike is a
provocation to push Russian troops to strike back. Though some Ukrainian bloggers are already
talking nonsense that Ukraine has captured the Russian city of Belgorod and are now discussing how they will rename it.
For now, the Ukrainians defend with whatever they have to keep alive agreements that were once signed with Russia.
This is a selective nonsense, because it was the Ukrainian side, or rather, the heads of the Ukrainian nationalist military groups, who
threatened Zelensky and promised to
sabotage the implementation of international agreements. If the Minsk agreements had been fulfilled, then Russia would not have had a formal reason to send troops to the territory of Ukraine. In addition, recently the former President of Ukraine Poroshenko
admitted that the Minsk agreements were needed only to gain time for the militarization of Ukraine.
Reply to johhnyUAYes, fully agree! In russian worldview "denazification == deukrainization" or "russification". If you don't want to speak in russian, if you do not want to share russian narratives and cultural "memes" (from Galeev - meme in culture == gene in biology) then you're 100 % nazi.
And "normal ukrainian" is russificated ukrainian (in terms of language and culture)
About deukrainization is complete nonsense. Russia is a multinational country and does not infringe upon representatives of national minorities on linguistic and cultural grounds. In Russia, even recently a hit in Ukrainian has become popular, which you could hear
"Plive Kacha", it sings about how "they bury demons in Azovstal".
Reply to LTU_btc... As I already said, war didn't started on 24th of February. It started 8 years ago when Russia occupied Crimea and invaded Donbas. So, it's not surprising that someone Russian flag isn't accepted positively.
BTW, he is actually Russian and he didn't just ''disappear''
It would be interesting to discuss Crimea with you, but this topic can drag on for many pages, so I'd better ask about Donbass. Do you have evidence that Russia invaded Donbass in 2014? Maybe you have satellite images (the same as those in
November 2021 - January 2022) showing the accumulation of Russian troops near the Ukrainian border? If you have similar pictures from 2014, please provide them. Maybe you can show at least one
report of the OSCE mission from 2014 to 2022, where it is written about Russian troops. Many tried to find traces of Russian troops there, but did not find anything. The head of the OSCE’s observer mission in Ukraine Alexander Hug
said: "We would not see direct evidence".
Even representatives of the Ukrainian side for several years have
not been able to provide the facts of the presence of Russian troops in the Donbass, although they tried very hard, such as Ukrainian official Georgy Tuka.
I can still be objected to about Russian mercenaries, but they are not official military personnel of the Russian army, just as now foreign mercenaries in Ukraine are not officially soldiers of their countries. In addition, it must be added that Russian mercenaries fought both on the side of the armies of the DPR and LPR, and on the side of the Ukrainian army.
And how about Russia. Now they are so afraid of Ukrainian flag that now they're repainting buildings, fences or benches if it have blue-yellow colour.
You have chosen a strange word "to be afraid". How can a flag scare? The word "irritated" is more appropriate, and this happens
not only in Russia. Because wherever you look - everywhere this coloring.
Reply to DrBeer1. No need to lie and pass off Russian propaganda as reality
2. The Ukrainian army, ON ITS TERRITORY, PROTECTS ITS COUNTRY FROM THE AGGRESSOR.
3. The Armed Forces of Ukraine fired and fired only at warehouses and headquarters.
4. Russian terrorists often hide in residential areas - this is "Russian heroism". Unfortunately, during the liberation of the occupied territories, civilians may also suffer. But we didn't start this war. Responsibility for the occupants.
Methods and technologies for the destruction of the aggressor have no restrictions, after they sadistically shot Mariupol, with rockets from the center of Vinnitsa, today Nikolaev (2 universities). The invaders will be destroyed by all available means, in any location where they are found.
1. You are a resident of Ukraine, right? Then it's better to tell us about Ukrainian propaganda. Do you think Ukrainian media and authorities never lie? For example, about how the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine
published footage from a computer game posing as the destruction of Russian helicopters, or tell about the
resurrected Ukrainian heroes from Serpent Island, tell me more about the
"evacuation" of the Nazis from the Azov battalion, and fakes about
mass rape of children and about the mighty pilot
"Ghost of Kyiv" which already disproved by the Ukrainian authorities themselves.? Ukrainian propaganda completely discredited itself and spawned thousands of fakes without any hesitation, justifying itself by fighting on the
"information front" in this way.
2. Is your caps lock broken? Specify exactly who the Ukrainian army was defending when it bombed the residents of Donetsk and Luhansk
since 2014, when several dozen people were
burned alive in the Odessa, when they
terrorized the inhabitants of Mariupol, and when the so-called "defenders"
tortured civilians?
3. Do you think the
bank and the
market in Donetsk are military facilities?
4. Such "heroism" to sit in civilian facilities and hide behind civilians as a human shield is mainly inherent in Ukrainian soldiers, on which they have been caught many times (
1,
2,
3,
4,
5,
6,
7,
8).
Ukrainian soldiers are not able to resist the Russian army in the
open fields (according to the adviser to the head of Zelensky's office), so the Armed Forces of Ukraine prefer to resort to tactics of battles inside the cities. Apparently, according to the logic of the Kyiv authorities, the more victims of the civilian population, the more sanctions will be imposed against Russia and the more money will be allocated to Zelensky's entourage. According to the Geneva Convention, real defenders should not endanger the civilian population by placing military equipment inside residential areas, but are obliged to evacuate residents to a safe area, away from military installations. Also, soldiers must place air defenses outside the city, so as not to injure citizens with missile fragments.
In those cities where the Ukrainian army did not hide among residential buildings, as in Melitopol or Kherson, there is no destruction. It is not in the interests of Russia to destroy the infrastructure, which it will then
restore.
Guess for what actions they give a real criminal term in Russia?
- for the poster "No to war"
- for the poster "I am for Peace"
- for publishing YOUR personal opinion on social networks, against military aggression.
- for the publication of the facts of Russian war crimes committed in Ukraine.
- they even detain you for clothes, if for example your clothes consist of yellow and blue (the colors of the Flag of Ukraine)!
You say this is idiotic and fake? I will answer you - no, in Russia this is a reality!
At the same time, Russia officially says that there is no war, that the Ukrainians are brothers, and that they are fighting against some kind of ephemeral "Nazis, Bandera and the Kyiv junta" - does it sound true?
You do not confuse administrative cases for which a fine is imposed with criminal ones? If you are really talking about criminal cases, then provide the numbers of these cases to check your words.
Tell me - for example, in Germany, you walk the streets for a long time with a swastika, an SS flag, and a portrait of Hitler to the cries of "Heil Hitler"? So in Ukraine, the bastard communist and today's bastard-Nazi Putin's regime are prohibited by law. This is fine !
Why are you talking about Germany? Tell us better about Ukraine - after all, there, in
military schools, teenagers are taught how to do the Nazi salute.
