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Topic: SaveGox.com - page 2. (Read 12573 times)

hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
May 15, 2014, 12:12:18 AM
liquidators (if Japanes law is like US law) will consider the total amount deposited into MtGOX minus the total withdrawn, converted to Yen at the historical BTC prices, ignoring the trades made inside the exchange and the final balances in the database.
This is pure speculation.  The liquidators might do this, but it is by no means a fact or an absolute requirement.  I asked before what they did in the liquidation of various online poker companies.  Did people who deposited many years before the bankruptsy, and lost their money, get money back?  There are plenty of bankruptsy cases to choose between, and so far I haven't found a single example of this in comparable cases.
In what conditions were those online poker companies closed -- because their activities were illegal?  Did they have any assets to distribute at all?  Were they based in the US?  Did ANY clients get refunded?

IIRC two posters claimed that US law specifies the "input-output" criterion rather than the "database balance' criterion.  One of them cited Madoff's case as an example.


legendary
Activity: 1437
Merit: 1002
https://bitmynt.no
May 14, 2014, 11:55:20 PM
liquidators (if Japanes law is like US law) will consider the total amount deposited into MtGOX minus the total withdrawn, converted to Yen at the historical BTC prices, ignoring the trades made inside the exchange and the final balances in the database.
This is pure speculation.  The liquidators might do this, but it is by no means a fact or an absolute requirement.  I asked before what they did in the liquidation of various online poker companies.  Did people who deposited many years before the bankruptsy, and lost their money, get money back?  There are plenty of bankruptsy cases to choose between, and so far I haven't found a single example of this in comparable cases.
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
May 14, 2014, 11:33:33 PM
Thank you guys for being patient for my responses, I've been sick the last couple days.

As you must be aware, there is another big difference between liquidation and the Sunlot proposal, which is how the claim of each client is computed.

IIUC, Sunlot will use the account balance that each client had in MtGOX's database, at some point in time; whereas the liquidators (if Japanes law is like US law) will consider the total amount deposited into MtGOX minus the total withdrawn, converted to Yen at the historical BTC prices, ignoring the trades made inside the exchange and the final balances in the database.

Obviously, some clients will have a strong preference for one criterion, some for the other criterion.  Does Sunlot intend to force the "database balance" criterion also on the clients who would prefer the "input-output" one?  Note that clients who have a large database balance might have no claim under the latter criterion, and vice-versa.  IIUC, clients with larger claims do not have more right to define the terms of the liquidation than those with smaller claims.

Moreover, when exactly will the balances be counted? 

Before MtGOX finally closed, there was a long period when withdrawals were blocked or nearly so.  During that period, MtGOX's clients were selling or buying bitcoins inside the exchange not for speculation, but in desperate attempts to get their money out, or to have a better change to recover after its probable collapse --- while there was still no information about the status of its assets.  Thus, using the balances after that frantic trading would be potentially very unfair to some clients, especally if some clients had inside knowledge and were able to acquire large balances through that unfair advantage.  (This, by the way, is another argument for using the "input-output" criterion instead of the "database balance" one to define the claims.)

hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
May 14, 2014, 11:08:53 PM
It would be interesting to know, for starters, when did Mr. Gay-Bouchery became aware of MtGOX's insolvency, and what did he do about it then.
You'd have to ask GGB, I haven't talked with him about the events leading up to collapse.

So he is being given immunity by Sunlot without even issuing a public statement about his role in the collapse?  (He was MtGOX's CFO, is this correct?)

My own personal opinion is that Mark is at fault.

Obviously someone needs to be held responsible for this event. Keep in mind this deal was made with creditors. I doubt any creditors would support a [ deal similar to GGB's ] with Mark. I know I wouldn't. [ ... ] Mark will be pursued for any wrongdoing that can be proven in a court of law.

IIUC Mark Karpeles personally is a large creditor of Mt Gox the company [ ... ] Does this mean that Sunlot would be paying a large proportion of the remaining coins to Mark personally? If not, what would be the legal basis for not paying him?
I believe John has stated that Mark wouldn't be getting paid out. I'm not a lawyer so I don't know what the legal basis is.

Thanks for the clarification.  However, is the intent to exclude the former management of MtGOX from the asset distribution a mere feeling and vague intention, or is Sunlot commiting to that in writing through a legally binding contract/proposal?

Otherwise, one big difference between the liquidation and the Sunlot proposal is that Mr. Karpelès (and Mr. Gay-Bouchery, and  Mr. McCaleb?) would get nothing from the first, and maybe a good slice of the 220'000 BTC from the second.

By the way, was Sunlot one of the potential MtGOX buyers contacted by Mr. Karpelès before he finally filed for bankruptcy?

[ The audit of the MtGOX database will be ] done by whom?  By Mark? Gonzague? Roger Ver?
Top 4 auditing firm. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Four_(audit_firms) Take your pick.

Again, is Sunlot commiting to this point in writing, in a legally binding document?  Have any of those firms been contacted to confirm that they would accept this task?  (I am asking because a reputable auditing firm will probably refuse to do an audit of something if it thinks that there isn't sufficient reliable data to support a useful conclusion.)
sr. member
Activity: 352
Merit: 250
https://www.realitykeys.com
May 14, 2014, 07:38:49 PM
Hi Jon. Not a creditor so maybe it's none of my business, but I'm wondering: The FAQ says,

Quote
Q: Will people be free to withdraw their assets right away?

Yes. Any recovered assets will be deposited into customer accounts immediately with no withdrawal restrictions.

As you know,
1) People responsible for stealing bitcoins and/or hacking the database, whether insiders or external people, may have positive balances in the current system.
2) There is an ongoing police investigation into who is responsible for stealing bitcoins. This may turn up information that won't be available to Sunlot, since the police have a lot of powers that Sunlot doesn't.
3) Regardless of what happens in the bankruptcy, this investigation may not be completed very quickly.

Does Sunlot really intend to pay out before the police investigation is completed, even at the risk of giving the legitimate creditors' money to the people who have already robbed them?

Or would Sunlot in fact wait until the police investigation was complete, in which case things might not happen quite as quickly as the FAQ makes it sound?

After an audit or once it appears that it is safe to allow withdrawals. We are aiming to get people paid out as quickly as possible while still staying safe.

That sounds sensible, but "once it appears that it is safe to allow withdrawals" is a very different thing to "right away" and "immediately". You might want to fix the FAQ... Are there any other bits of your public statements that read like things that you're promising to do but are really things that you're hoping to do?
sr. member
Activity: 274
Merit: 250
May 14, 2014, 05:43:11 PM
Hey guys!

I'm on the SaveGox team. If you guys have questions for the team, please post them.

I'm opening this thread because Goat closed the other one.

Thanks,

-Jon

Will your investment provide enough injection to cover the negative balance of lost deposits if there is one?

If not, then I have a second question.

How will the new exchange offer complete transparency to its books and balances?

Hi Jon. Still seeking answers to these questions.  Will DEPOSITORS receive the full amount of lost deposits back - whether in the form of Bitcoin or FIAT. It appears that your plan will convert Bitcoin to Fiat based on some valuation.

John, now that you are back, can you please answer these questions? Feel free to PM.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 500
One Token to Move Anything Anywhere
May 14, 2014, 03:25:11 PM
Step 1: Audit. Figure out who is owed what and if there are any fake (or invalid) accounts in the database.
Step 2: Everyone gets equity on a pro rata basis. If you owned 1% of the money that went missing, you'd get 1% of the 16.5% going to creditors.
Step 3: Everyone is free to withdraw their funds after the audit is done.

Could you give more details about how Sunlot came up with the figure of 16.5% equity to creditors?

As a creditor not directly involved with the US lawsuit I would appreciate a copy of the business plan or proposal that must have been presented to lawyers working on that case.

How is the rest of the equity divided?

Thanks in advance for the information.
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
May 14, 2014, 02:16:44 PM
Not to mention we'll be releasing evidence we find to the Bitcoin community. These aren't just lost funds, they're the community's funds and everyone should be given the tools to help track them down.
As a minimum, those tools should be the complete database of trades, deposits and withdrawals.  Some clients seem to object to that, though.  Whithout that information, what could people do?
legendary
Activity: 3892
Merit: 11105
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
May 14, 2014, 12:46:13 PM
Regarding convicting criminals, there may or may NOT be proof of criminal activity, and accordingly, a better result may be to attempt to make whole as many customers as possible.  We do NOT have enough information to make broad general statements to pursue one avenue at the exclusion of another, and we do NOT know the extent to which multiple avenues may be pursued simultaneously.
According to Mark, 600'000 BTC were stolen from his company, that is why he cannot pay to clients what they were due according to his terms of service. Whether he lied or told the truth, a crime obviously has been committed. 


That's a good point that if the BTC were really stolen, then there is a crime.  If the BTC were NOT stolen, then there was a crime.  However, your earlier point was that you could give a fuck about the investors, so long as the crime is pursued.. and the wrong doers are punished.

There may NOT be enough evidence to resolve these potential criminal matters, and it would be really stupid and short-sighted to pursue this matter from only one angle....

At some point, it may be deemed to be a better course of action to discontinue the pursuit of the criminal angle, and those kinds of decisions would, in part, be affected by the existence of evidence and the willingness of prosecutors to pursue such direction in light of all developments and going forward agreements.
full member
Activity: 169
Merit: 101
Jon Holmquist
May 14, 2014, 12:37:32 PM
Thank you guys for being patient for my responses, I've been sick the last couple days.
full member
Activity: 169
Merit: 101
Jon Holmquist
May 14, 2014, 12:32:00 PM
What makes you think that they really want to find the lost funds? Just because they said so?
Ah, you are playing idiot again.  No, saying so makes no difference. There are several parts to this: [ ... ]
Perhaps the problem will be easier to understand if explained in a bigger font:

What makes you think that they really want to find the lost funds?



There is a sizable bounty in our proposal to give incentive to anyone to find them.

Not to mention we'll be releasing evidence we find to the Bitcoin community. These aren't just lost funds, they're the community's funds and everyone should be given the tools to help track them down.
full member
Activity: 169
Merit: 101
Jon Holmquist
May 14, 2014, 12:28:27 PM
An audit will trivially reveal if the trade data matches the balances caused by deposits and withdrawals.
An audit done by whom?  By Mark? Gonzague? Roger Ver?

(The PR guy has not said what they intend to do about Mark, has he?)

Top 4 auditing firm. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Four_(audit_firms) Take your pick.

Mark will be pursued for any wrongdoing that can be proven in a court of law.
full member
Activity: 169
Merit: 101
Jon Holmquist
May 14, 2014, 12:26:36 PM
Two more questions:
A significant amount of BTC balances belong to very old accounts which haven't been touched for years.  93,442 BTC, 454,849 USD, 23,799 EUR, etc, in accounts not touched since 2012 or earlier.  MtGox had a clause in their ToS which allowed them to close accounts which hadn't been logged in to in more than 6 months.  Will those account owners be counted as creditors, or will the clause take effect and the account considered closed?  This will allow a significant higher payback to users.

Will there be a claims process where people have to actively make their claims?  If so, what happens to assets not claimed in this process?  Would payouts to the remaining creditors increase if some creditors fail to make their claim?

Customers will have a couple months to withdraw their funds before their coins are released back to the pool of creditors.
full member
Activity: 169
Merit: 101
Jon Holmquist
May 14, 2014, 12:25:34 PM
Another question for Jon. (I guess he'll answer my previous one when he wakes up.)

IIUC Mark Karpeles personally is a large creditor of Mt Gox the company, with a lot of bitcoins in his own exchange. A liquidation would put the claims of directors of the company last, but in rehabilitation you're supposed to pay everyone what they're owed, unless they specifically agree to forbearance.

Does this mean that Sunlot would be paying a large proportion of the remaining coins to Mark personally? If not, what would be the legal basis for not paying him?

I believe John has stated that Mark wouldn't be getting paid out. I'm not a lawyer so I don't know what the legal basis is.
full member
Activity: 169
Merit: 101
Jon Holmquist
May 14, 2014, 12:24:01 PM
I have one suggestion to Sunlot: Pay out all BTC balances of 1 BTC or less than BTC in full at once.

I second this motion. This would lower the cost and effort of the subsequent operations related to creditors' equity.
Moreover, such action might help to restore some confidence in Bitcoin amongst many (and possibly: not well-off) individuals who tried to buy a fraction of bitcoin out of curiosity and got Goxxed instead.



I also think this is a good idea

50 % less creditors to deal with may make recovery quicker.


please note I think sunlot are buying mtgox at a bargain price
if mtgox had not "stuffed up" and lost all our money it could be worth as much as $700 mil ( about 700,000 customers at $100 per customer . )

at present I believe sunlot is the best option -see  sunlot FAQ

I would also like to see sunlot put some money in --- like $20 mil in a escrow account

-- okcoin and other plans are still un known - so cannot compare ----

We're planning on throwing some skin into the game to the tune of a couple million. Expect an announcement sometime this month.
full member
Activity: 169
Merit: 101
Jon Holmquist
May 14, 2014, 12:21:14 PM
Hi Jon. Not a creditor so maybe it's none of my business, but I'm wondering: The FAQ says,

Quote
Q: Will people be free to withdraw their assets right away?

Yes. Any recovered assets will be deposited into customer accounts immediately with no withdrawal restrictions.

As you know,
1) People responsible for stealing bitcoins and/or hacking the database, whether insiders or external people, may have positive balances in the current system.
2) There is an ongoing police investigation into who is responsible for stealing bitcoins. This may turn up information that won't be available to Sunlot, since the police have a lot of powers that Sunlot doesn't.
3) Regardless of what happens in the bankruptcy, this investigation may not be completed very quickly.

Does Sunlot really intend to pay out before the police investigation is completed, even at the risk of giving the legitimate creditors' money to the people who have already robbed them?

Or would Sunlot in fact wait until the police investigation was complete, in which case things might not happen quite as quickly as the FAQ makes it sound?

After an audit or once it appears that it is safe to allow withdrawals. We are aiming to get people paid out as quickly as possible while still staying safe.
full member
Activity: 169
Merit: 101
Jon Holmquist
May 14, 2014, 12:19:49 PM
Was there any information released regarding how Sunlot would convert the BTC balances into equity stakes?
For obvious reasons, I had only BTC left inside Gox. But for the same reason, those don't worth much if you count their ~100 $/BTC closing price.

We're using a $500 per coin basis.

Cheers,
When the plan sails on and recovery is underway the price will easily shoot up back to $1000.
Very bad idea IMO

I don't get the idea of the equity stakes! Please explain!

Step 1: Audit. Figure out who is owed what and if there are any fake (or invalid) accounts in the database.
Step 2: Everyone gets equity on a pro rata basis. If you owned 1% of the money that went missing, you'd get 1% of the 16.5% going to creditors.
Step 3: Everyone is free to withdraw their funds after the audit is done.
full member
Activity: 169
Merit: 101
Jon Holmquist
May 14, 2014, 12:17:40 PM
Mr. Gay-Bouchery and Mr. McCaleb [ ... ]  If this deal is approved by the court, will they be freed of any responsibility for their roles in MtGOX's collapse?

Q: Why are you working with Jed McCaleb and Gonzague Gay-Bouchery?

This process takes pragmatism rather than idealism, and without a deal, the assets will be liquidated and customers will have no recourse. We all want an outlet for our anger and frustration, and we all want retribution, but the immediate goal at hand is to get a deal done to avoid liquidation, because once that happens the company is gone and there will be no standing left to go after Mark or investigate the lost coins.

Q: What do Jed and GGB get out of the deal?

In return for their full cooperation in recovery and prosecution of those responsible, we have agreed to release both defendants from the claims in the lawsuit.

I see.  Are you going to make the same offer to Mr. Karpelès, then?  Or is he the expert that you intend to hire to investigate the matter?

Now seriously: it is not a matter of "anger", but deterring further crimes from happening. 

It would be interesting to know, for starters, when did Mr. Gay-Bouchery became aware of MtGOX's insolvency, and what did he do about it then.


My own personal opinion is that Mark is at fault.

Obviously someone needs to be held responsible for this event. Keep in mind this deal was made with creditors. I doubt any creditors would support a similar deal with Mark. I know I wouldn't.

You'd have to ask GGB, I haven't talked with him about the events leading up to collapse.

full member
Activity: 169
Merit: 101
Jon Holmquist
May 14, 2014, 12:15:09 PM
1: We have new software that is all ready to go. The software isn't really the hard part, it's more about operations and making sure it runs smoothly.
Does your software have the same features which made people continue using MtGox despite all the problems?  Like APIs over multiple protocols, better than all the other exchanges APIs combined, and and multi-currency trading within the same orderbook? 

Not sure on the specifics yet. It's fast and secure though.
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
May 14, 2014, 06:52:26 AM
Regarding convicting criminals, there may or may NOT be proof of criminal activity, and accordingly, a better result may be to attempt to make whole as many customers as possible.  We do NOT have enough information to make broad general statements to pursue one avenue at the exclusion of another, and we do NOT know the extent to which multiple avenues may be pursued simultaneously.
According to Mark, 600'000 BTC were stolen from his company, that is why he cannot pay to clients what they were due according to his terms of service. Whether he lied or told the truth, a crime obviously has been committed. 
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