Topic: SaveGox.com - page 7. (Read 12562 times)

hi jon, thanks for your communication effort. i have a question for you and johnbetts:

why are you guys don't join forces with the OKcoin team? from what i've heard, they offered their know-how and to license their trading software to make it easy for you, to restart gox as fast as possible.

i understand, that you want to run this on your own without the need to license anything. especially since you already put in a lot effort to make that deal possible. i'm quit sure your team has the legal capacity and a lot of experience in the financial business which are some badly needed qualifications. but you seem to forget, that dealing in bitcoin is quit special! at least i get that impression, when i read statements like that:



since your initial rehab plan was leaked (http://www.goxdox.org/) and everybody got the impression, that you don't care to much about the creditors, there is almost no support left for sunlot. statments like this only make things worse:


to me and almost everyone this reads between the lines like something more or less like this: "shit, our plan got leaked and now everybody knows that we only want to make a quick buck and don't give a shit about the creditors! lets tweak the plan a little and repeat everywhere how importand the creditors are to us, maybe that way we'll get their support back"

don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that's the case! i'm just saying it kind of sounds like that! there is absolutely no harm in admitting that this is business! it's about money and helping ppl can never be the first priority. we, the creditors, understand that! sunlot has to make money and there won't be any restart if you can't get a good deal for yourself. we don't blame you for that! but to get our support the deal has to be fair! as long as it feels like a total fuck over there won't be much support.

my impression is that the sunlot team learned from their mistake and is now trying to do better, i.e. work together with the creditors for a solution everybody or at least the majority can agree to. so far there is still much greater support for the OKcoin proposal or, lets say, for what the OKcoin proposal is expected to be.

my personal impression is, that OKcoin might be somewhat optimistic regarding the legal and regulatory hurdles and what they can promise the creditors without cripling the new gox right from the beginning. you guys might be somewhat optimistic when it comes to all the possible technical glitches that can fuck up a bitcoin exchange! ("bitcoin is just another asset class, not different to stocks when it comes to trading" johnbetts)

even if i'm wrong and you have the expertise, your leaked initial plan lost you the community support. OKcoin has our support and a approved bitcoin trading engine ready to go, sunlot has the connections and resources to deal with all the non technical issues.

sounds like a dream team to me!


and last, but not least: if there is no chance to join forces for whatever reason, you might want to come up with a better plan to get more support. i personally don't need 49% equity! but i can't trust sunlot as long as you just use mt.gox [our] assets at the beginning. i'm talking about the 10m you want to take out to get started. put a reasonable amount of your own money at stake! trust can be bought. at least in this case...

Blockchain analysis can only go so far, but it does reveal some parameters of the puzzle. We need access to MtGox's accounting system. With that, we'd figure it out much faster than any cybercrime police team would. We are far greater in number and experience.

You place too much faith in authority. Hiring an expert in a field who does it for the money does not compare to the power the Internet has in bringing together the top experts, and this is especially true for something like cryptocurrency.

The Tokyo police was handed evidence several weeks ago, according to one of the MtGox press releases (authored by Karpeles under supervision). So the new Gox team could investigate in parallel, or assist the police investigation if indeed one exists.



You're assuming Karpeles is the only one to blame (and that he's an evil genius). He had no reason to attempt grand theft. It seems unlikely that he faked his incompetence and staged the security problems that plagued MtGox.



You're right! I should've written: Karpeles got far in the Bitcoin world because he purchased the first exchange and rode that wave. He got far in the Bitcoin world because he was an early adopter and then made a fortune after buying the first exchange from McCaleb, who knew it wouldn't scale so he wanted to get rid of it.

Was there any information released regarding how Sunlot would convert the BTC balances into equity stakes?
For obvious reasons, I had only BTC left inside Gox. But for the same reason, those don't worth much if you count their ~100 $/BTC closing price.

Agreed - truth must be uncovered. Whether Mark or anyone else.

Jed McCaleb started Mt Gox, not Mark Karpeles.

Yes. Once enough evidence is collected for the Tokyo police to arrest and interrogate Mark Karpeles for their usual 23 days.

Does Your plan involve people to whom MtGox owes money and do not reside in US and Canada in the same manner as those that do?

No, I mean technical aspects of the issue.  If it were a theft of chemical formulas they would hire chemical experts, if it was a theft of computer chip designs they would hire chip design experts, etc..

The police in countries like the US and Japan is quite compentent by now in the investigation of cybercrimes.  Bitcoin is not more complicated than the things they have already mastered.

On the other hand, the "crowd detectives" who poke at the blockchain so far have made a lot of noise, but have no concrete result to show, have they? In MtGOX or any other theft/scam...

The police certainly has a better chance than a team of unknown managers who MAY bring in the police (but almost certainly will not).

Good luck but you will need really big investment.

Irrelevant to the situation. You are not lending anything. Your goxcoins were never really yours. What you had was a promise to pay, just like with the banks. Karpeles got far in the Bitcoin world because he created the first exchange and the first price discovery mechanism, and made a fortune with BTC, not for reasons of trust.


The technicalities of liquidation, not the technicalities of recovering the missing 650,000 BTC!


And you really think the Tokyo police has a higher chance of solving the mystery than has the Tokyo police PLUS a restarted MtGox run by (presumably) competent people who have a bigger incentive to solve it?

I have yet to know a "bitcoin entrepreneur" to whom I would lend a pen without removing the cap first.  For one thing, Karpelès was one of the top board members of the Bitcoin Foundation.

Lawyers can and will hire experts to handle the technicalities, in bitcoin or any other field.

The thief (or embezzler, or fraudster) responsible for the missing MtGOX coins must be found by teh police and punished by law.   The issue is not just return the coint to his victims, but deterrence of future crimes.  If he walks away with his loot, why should not every exchange owner do the same?

Me too but such disinformations should be stopped and they keep on throwing words "creditor support" which is not helping as I am sure that not all big players were from US/Canada, and I haven't heard about Class Action Suit up until now..

They somehow made agreements between themselves without having proofs of each person stake in it? And definitely without talking to ALL creditors, as this is unreasonable to be made but it should be public knowledge (maybe it is?).

I agree bankruptcy is not a solution and debt swap is good idea but there needs to be more explanation from them, even if they are trying to get MtGox only for US/Canada customers, other creditors have to know this information, or else they'll get screwed.

I've assumed that this must be dis/misinformation, because like you said, it doesn't make any sense.

I am also from Europe and have stake. I do not understand how could that be possible? MtGox owes to everyone with equal rights.

If so, Europeans and other nations should organize and make appropriate claims so that we do not end up with nothing.

Could anyone from Sunlot confirm that nationals other than Canada and US will not be counted as creditors? Or that Sunlot will not compensate them in any manner?

Guess I've missed the records of fraud, then. All I've seen is one allegation about one of the Sunlot people. Care to post a link with the full info about fraud?

It's worst than you think! How about entrepreneurs with records of fraud and experience in the crumbling financial world opting to carry over said expertise over to the cryptocurrency realm? The only thing left to add is Disney. Oh, wait...

Regarding the issue of trust, it's a simple matter. Who'd you rather have decide the fate of MtGox and your missing funds? Karpeles, crypto-clueless Japanese lawyers, or Bitcoin entrepreneurs with a record of experience in the crumbling financial world? Hmmm, tough choice.

The "class action" has never been certified by a court as representing US and Canadian investors. That requires notice to all class members (not just publication) and an opportunity to opt out.  So they don't represent anybody but themselves.

On the other side, there's Sunlot, with no money, no business history, and questionable people involved.

That they made a deal with each other doesn't mean much.

Yes, exactly, if these people are serious then release the wallet addresses that were lost/stolen. It is simple enough, and they will be found eventually in any case.

Mr. Holmquist, I must admit I have to admire your nerve (some would say temerity) to post here.

I agree with Nagle, perhaps let's first get the criminal and background records on the team.

Perhaps you can also clarify then when Bruce Fenton first became aware of the financial troubles at Mt. Gox? And precisely what information was made available to him on that date? And more specifically, whether it included any information which would have led a reasonable person to believe that Mt. Gox had lost customer funds. I am very curious about this latter question, as I imagine a number of courts may be as well.