Topic: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 90btc - page 3. (Read 18439 times)

CoinaScam

Received a tracking number today.

I'll post when I get the package.

another day, no responses from coinabul

I ordered 4 silver liberty eagles (one troy ounce) on April 3rd, my order still says "processing".

They haven't packed up and left have they? Wish I would have read this thread, wouldn't have bought from them.

Bump for watching

I'm in the exact same boat as you.

Wish my order was just an experiment.

I'm starting to speculate that he is speculating with order money 

no responses today.

Let's see if this is legit or a scam.  I placed an order for 1 coin from their website.

Sent the bitcoins in.  Got the email confirmation of the order.  Called both numbers several time, left voice mails.  no returned phone call.

Sent an email asking for shipping status.

No responses yet.

It looks like they behaved properly in the end.  Good for them.  I need to check out the laws here in the US before I buy some gold in that quantity.

Ok, I see now.  I'm glad you cleared that up.  I made some edits so it's clearer to people who don't pay a lot of attention that Coinabul did right by you.

Eeee, as I said. It is hard to write such text in foreign language ;-)
I misunderstood english or you misunderstood my text.

It is not needed to return bitcoins because the convention does not force it. The convention is to pay dollars whenever possible. And when in doubt, always pay dollars.

Thanks for the story.  My legs are still cramped, but I suppose it was worth it.  You are concerned for other customers of Coinabul who might get a refund only of the price of gold, but Coinabul would keep all the other extra expenses.  If you're right, that is a black mark against the company.  It would be nice if others showed up to let us know either way.

I don't believe Coinabul is prohibited by law from sending you 90 BTC.  They are most likely prevented from that by not having bitcoin, but that is a problem they ought to solve.  They ought to change that in their terms of service: "Coinabul will keep your payment until we know that you have what you purchased.  If you request a refund, we will deduct the cost of our expenses and return the rest of your payment in kind.  If we are unable to ship your product, we will return your entire payment in kind.

If that's illegal, then I think the moral thing to do is break the law.  If they want to mitigate exchange rate risk, then their bitcoin prices can be higher.  They could offer the lower price to customers who agree to be reimbursed in fiat at Coinabul's discretion (which is what bravenec did, assuming he read and understood the TOS).  This only means that I wouldn't recommend using them until they make some changes.

If you read Lysander Spooner's excellent book on the history of the Trial By Jury (that's the title too), you will see that the institution of the Trial by Jury is a direct and millenia-old result of bad law.  Martin Luther King, in his famous "Letter from the Birmingham Jail," called on all Americans to actively but peacefully oppose laws that were morally wrong. Every thoughtful person knows that this is true.

I am anticipating a boom in businesses who openly declare that they are aware of unjust laws and will actively disobey them for the good of their customers and the rest of society.  Consider this post as my own such declaration.  With SOPA and PIPA like legislation crawling around the cesspool in the US capitol, I'm looking for ISPs that will make this declaration.

Oops!  I got off topic there, didn't I?  Was it worth it?

Thank you, good that it turned out well.

My feelings

When I ordered gold in the US for my bitcoins, I felt some mental discomfort. Defense against any unfair conduct accross the ocean, in a foreign language, in a foreign environment and in different time zone can be very difficult. I wanted to spend my bitcoins for gold when the bitcoin first time exceeded $ 30 per bitcoin. I had no time, bitcoin fall very quickly.

So I ordered my Krugerrand as planned from Coinabul now. Coinabul was recommended me by my previous supplier. That's why I was not looking for anyone in Europe.

Communication with Coinabul proved to be very slow. Any information I received only when I requested it and the answer sometimes took several days. After three weeks it was said me that the Krugerrand will not be send to me. I did not understand Coinabul's reasons and reply to my request to return bitcoins was very confusing. At that moment I began to believe that I become a victim of fraud which further strengthened the refund offer far below the amount sent to the US and five day delay in response to my last mail.

The situation was calmed down by a guy here in Czech Republic which called to Coinabul and to me and explained whole situation. Thank you.

Why Coinabul did not send the Krugerrand

The financial system of the world is sick. Fiat money rules the world and any attempt to change the monopoly on the production of the commodity called "money" is percived as dangerous and suspicious. Bitcoin and gold are precisely those commodities that played the money's role whole ages, or aspire to this role. Any manipulation with them thus attracts the attention of the rulers of the current system and automaticly raises suspicion. Therefore, once the Coinabul had some doubt that everything is legal, they stopped whole action and refused to send me the gold. It is evident in all their mails that they want to have everything in order and the effort could be funny from the outsider point of view. But keep in mind that Coinabul is located in a state which showed how easy could be to destroy their job:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

Why the bitcoins was not returned to me

The reason is simple - the did not returned bitcoins because they may not. As I said, current financial system of the world is sick. The only bearer of value are money. It does not matter how the two parties agree - once the relationship is affected by state (courts, financila office, etc.) all the value has to be quoted in money. Someone crashes your car - the court will assign you money compensation, rather than a new car. If someone kill your apple tree, the court will assign you a money, not a bag of apples each of the next twenty years. Coinabul has in terms that they refunds in US dollars. In the doubt, everything is counted in money by the state. Common sense - I put bitcoin, I get bitcoin - is completely unnecessary. This procedure, of course, may damage any part of the trade. And because the rules are determined by the seller, it is the seller which is the stronger part. If the rule "I put bitcoin, I get bitcoin" was valid, the Coinabul's terms would be completely different and the Coinabul would hedge against bitcoin market moves. The hedging is simple - keep  bitcoins until the trade is settled.

Recommended reading:

Murray N. Rothbard: What Has Government Done to Our Money?

Conclusion

I get enough from Coinabul to buy Krugerrand in Europe. From this perspective I'm satisfied. I do not feel to be damaged. However, I have feeling that the things started to move when I made a public circus and that a lot of other people would get from the Coinabul really just the spot gold price and the premium, shipping and insurance paid would keep the Coinabul. At the same time remains in me a sense of disgust at the methods that I can use in the fight for my demands.

Recommendation
If you are outside from US, do not buy in US. When byuing in US, you should be always warned that you are responsible for your local taxes and local laws. If you buy gold in US, there is a chance that the gold is never sent to you.

Final note
It is very hard to write such text in foreign language. Sori from me english :-)

I think bravenec is going to tell us a story.  I'm sitting Indian style, but getting leg cramps...

so whats the latest news?

I like your site, will give it a go : )

That looked quite nice!

Some of Bitcoin's funniest moments have come from shonky operators arguing with each other.

Let's go fishing there, Herodes. Looks like the bass are ready to spawn.