Topic: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 90btc - page 5. (Read 18449 times)

Did you read what Coinabul said?
Are you saying that what Fedex has posted on their website is a lie?

http://goldsilver.com/international/ <--- They are in the US and ship to the Czech Republic
http://silvergoldbull.com/shipping  <--- They are in Canada and also ship to the Czech Republic

What's Coinabuls' excuse? That it's forbidden? I'm LMAO even if it's not funny...

Do not spend a customer's money before it's actually your money. It isn't your money until a sale is completed. As far as gold, one must either stock gold as inventory and create an obvious buffer to protect a customer's funds or one must get out of this crooked game. Anything else is disreputable by any measure.

Coinabul's Terms of Service

Conditions of Use      By using the Coinabul website or any other service provided by Coinabul, you implicitly agree to the following Conditions of Use.    These terms apply to all orders, purchases, and sales made through www.Coinabul.com, by telephone, or by any other means. We urge you to read and understand these Conditions of Use, as well as all policies and procedures before using any Coinabul service. It will be necessary for you to acknowledge reading, understanding, and accepting all terms of these Conditions of Use before placing any orders with, or selling to Coinabul. Payment for any item must be sent within 1 hour after purchase to ensure that your product is reserved at your spot price. We reserve the right to change this User Agreement at any time. Any changes will be posted on the Coinabul website and all changes will take effect 30 days after their posting. This User Agreement cannot be changed in any other fashion except by mutual, written agreement between Coinabul and you. This User Agreement sets forth the entire agreement between Coinabul and you in regards to the material contained within it. If you have any questions regarding this agreement, or any rights or obligations described within it, please contact Coinabul. If an order cannot be filled by Coinabul we will either: provide a substitute product of your choice of equivalent value, or provide a refund, minus any market loss incurred and at our discretion. Privacy Policy  Coinabul respects your privacy.  We will never willfully sell, rent or share any individual customer information with anyone. The only information we maintain is the information you provide us with to complete your Coinabul order.  Coinabul uses the highest industry safety standards when storing information or completing a sale, including the highest industry standard secure server (SSL) used to transfer payment over the internet safely and securely. Coinabul employees are only granted access to your information to complete a transaction, and all strictly comply with our security policies. While Coinabul will not sell, rent or share customer information with anyone, we may share general, non-individual information, such as registration statistics with trusted third parties. We may occasionally send you emails containing special offers or information about new services and products. If you no longer wish to receive these emails, simply click UNSUBSCRIBE or send an email message to [email protected] with "remove" in the subject line and your address will be deleted from our active mailing list.      Disclaimer     By using Coinabul's services, including this website, you agree to be bound by this Disclaimer.  Please make sure you read and understand the policies set forth in this section. You also implicitly state that you have sufficient knowledge and experience on which to base your decisions regarding the buying and selling of precious metals, and that Coinabul makes no recommendations about those sales or purchases. You acknowledge understanding of the risks inherent in such transactions, including fluctuations in market price, and that those risks are beyond the control of Coinabul. By using our services, you acknowledge that certain market conditions or other disruptions, such as technological difficulties, may result in you being unable to buy or sell products on a timetable or at a price that is acceptable to you. If you fail to abide by the terms described within the Conditions of Use, we reserve the right to suspend or terminate your account at any time. You agree not to hold Coinabul liable or responsible for any orders placed via its online order system, disruptions, or termination of that system, or for any losses, or damages you may incur as a result of using the order entry system.  Coinabul is not liable for any errors, negligence, or inability to fulfill any orders. Nor can Coinabul be held responsible for delays in transmission, delivery, or fulfillment of orders due to the failure of associated facilities or to any other causes beyond its control.  By using any Coinabul service, you agree that you understand the order entry system is mechanical and may fail due to conditions beyond our control.  Cookies are data files which store information concerning the websites you have visited. Data contained in those files is data you yourself have entered, such as user IDs and passwords. Cookies cannot search out data on your hard drives or data files created by other websites.  No payment information is stored within the cookies used by Coinabul. Coinabul uses tracking cookies to enable you to easily retrieve fresh quotes or place additional orders without having to re-enter your name and shipping data. If your browser is currently blocking cookies, you may have trouble logging in or the system may not be able to find your username or password.  Please enable cookies, and temporarily unblock JavaScript in your browser's settings for the smoothest possible experience on www.Coinabul.com.       User Agreement     By making purchases, selling, or placing orders with Coinabul, you are agreeing to abide by our Conditions of Use. All investment includes an element of risk. The value of bullion coin is constantly affected by a variety of factors including market price, the perceived value of such coins in relation to their availability, as well as other innumerable factors. Because of the natural fluctuations in price, investing in bullion and coins may not be suitable for everyone. It is in your best interest to learn as much as you can, fully understand the market, and ensure you have sufficient financial reserves before considering any investment. All policies are subject to change at any time and all such changes will be effective immediately upon posting to the Coinabul website.  Indemnification  By using Coinabul’s services, you agree that neither the company, nor its affiliates, officers, directors or shareholders can be held liable for any costs, damages, expenses, liabilities or obligations you incur as a result of your breach of agreement with Coinabul, or your failure to adhere to the Conditions of Use. Limitation of Liability  By using our services, you agree that Coinabul cannot be held liable for any consequential, exemplary, or indirect losses or damages you may incur from a transaction with us.  If Coinabul is held liable to you for a transaction, liability will be limited to either the amount which you paid during the transaction or $100; whichever is greater.   Termination  Either you or Coinabul may terminate this User Agreement at any time with written notice to the other party. Termination will not affect the rules and rights available to you or Coinabul in regard to use and transactions which occurred before the termination.  Rights and Remedies Coinabul reserves the right to exercise any and all rights available to us by law in the event of your failure to comply with any obligations you owe us.  This includes, but is not limited to, using any of your funds being held by Coinabul to satisfy your financial obligations to us.  We may also offset any financial obligation we owe to you, against your outstanding obligations.  We reserve the right to turn your account over to a collections agency or lawyer for collection if necessary.  In that event, you are responsible for paying all costs associated with the collection, including, but not limited to attorneys fees and court costs.   No delay or failure to act on our part can be construed as a waiver of any right or remedy. Also, no action upon any right or remedy will limit further exercise of that right or remedy.  By using any Coinabul service you agree to allow us to charge the credit card you have provided for any market losses incurred by Coinabul as a result of your failure to fulfill any obligation.       Absence of Relationship     Upon using any Coinabul service, the only relationship created is that of a buyer and a seller. No other legal relationship exists or is implied.  Our written consent is required before you may transfer or assign these Conditions of Use, any rights it grants you, or any obligations to another party. This User Agreement will be considered binding on any allowed transfer or assignment and any successors of Coinabul.  Dispute Resolution  It is our goal that all disputes can be resolved in a timely fashion. To that end, use of any Coinabul service requires that you agree to dispute resolution as outlined below: 1.Forum Selection: The State courts of Wyoming shall have jurisdiction in any disputes. Disputes must be resolved within those courts. By using any Coinabul service, you agree to waive any objection to the jurisdiction of those courts. 2.Governing Law: This User Agreement shall be governed and interpreted in agreement with the laws of Wyoming. 3.Waiver of Jury Trial: Arbitration: BOTH COINABUL AND YOU WAIVE YOUR RIGHT TO TRAIL BY JURY AND ARBITRATION IN THE EVENT OF ANY DISPUTE.  Liability  Failure to perform or delay in the performance of any of our obligations due to events that are beyond our control is excusable, and Coinabul cannot be held responsible or liable for any losses or damages incurred because of such events.  Further Assurances  By using any Coinabul service, you agree to complete and provide any other reasonable documentation or actions which may be required.  Notices  All communications with us must be through an authorized agent of Coinabul in the state of Wyoming. All communications to you will be sent to the mailing address, or e-mail address you provided upon registration.     Absence of Waivers Any failure or decision not to take action in response to any of your failures to comply with these Conditions of Use does not affect the ability of Coinabul to act upon any other such failure.     Severability    If any term of the User Agreement is found to be unenforceable under the applicable laws, it does not affect the enforceability of any other term. If you have any questions regarding Coinabul, contact us: via email at [email protected], or by phone at 1-321-222-7748, or by mail at 2710 Thomes Ave, Cheyenne WY, 82001.

So your argument is essentially that so long as Coinabul's terms were knowable to the customer prior to the order being placed and the customer placed the order nonetheless, Coinabul cannot be scamming if they follow their own terms.

Coinabul's TOS says "If Coinabul is held liable to you for a transaction, liability will be limited to either the amount which you paid during the transaction or $100; whichever is greater."

So if I place an order for $1,000 worth of gold, Coinabul opts not to send me the gold for no reason, I sue them, get a $1,000 judgment and they pay me $100, that wouldn't be Coinabul scamming?

It is, unfortunately, fairly routine for companies to have terms of service that say "We can do whatever we want and your only recourse is to ask us nicely to do something else". While companies think this provides them with all kinds of legal protection, what it actually does is cause people to have no choice but to ignore the terms when determining if the company acted responsibly or not. Coinabul's terms are these kinds of terms -- many of them contain "we can do whatever we want and you have to take it " clauses, such as this beauty: "Coinabul is not liable for any errors, negligence, or inability to fulfill any orders."

I'm not saying Coinabul shouldn't have this kind of ToS. While I think it's idiotic, I understand that lots of companies do this, often as a result of specific legal advice. And I'm not a lawyer. But it forces people to basically ignore the Tos when deciding whether to buy from the company or evaluating whether the company acted reasonably.

The reason nobody bothers to read a ToS is because they all say the same thing -- we can do whatever we want.

...it's nearly impossible to verify on our end which countries across the globe have a specific ban on the import of precious metals, hence the special International Orders page linked to from the footer on every page within our site.

Coins; paper money; securities and other paper values of any kind; as well as savings-bank booklets; and unmanufactured gold, silver, and platinum may be imported only by authorization of the State Bank.

The terms may be crooked in your mind, but they are not illegal (that I am aware of), and everyone is free to read them BEFORE ordering.  And of course Coinabul would still owe them a full refund in USD equivalent if BTC dropped to $1.  The BTC price after the time of purchase is completely irrelevant - again, because of the terms that Coinabul lists.

Look carefully to their TOS:


There are no such restriction. I know this condition because it is not first time I bought something in US. I have been many times noted by the seller: "Be carefull, we are not responsible for your local tax or restrictions."

Look to this:


I can read their TOS three times, I can memorized it, but there is not written "We are not licensed to send gold to Czech Republic".

Look carefully to their TOS:


There are no such restriction. I know this condition because it is not first time I bought something in US. I have been many times noted by the seller: "Be carefull, we are not responsible for your local tax or restrictions."

Look to this:


I can read their TOS three times, I can memorized it, but there is not written "We are not licensed to send gold to Czech Republic".

No matter what the origin country, precious metals are unable to be imported into his nation(see http://countries.bridgat.com/Czech_Republic_Import_Restrictions.html http://www.fedex.com/us/international/irc/profiles/irc_cz_profile.html http://pe.usps.com/text/imm/ce_019.htm).

Prohibitions

In addition to items prohibited by Dangerous and Prohibited Goods & Packaging Post Guide and ECI International Courier Regulations, Czech Republic prohibits:
 

    Alcohol
    Chain letters
    Lottery tickets
    Precious metals
    Reproductions of bank notes or designs resembling them
    Saccharine.

It's in their TOS. It's buyers responsibility to read them. Nobody forced him to use coinabul if he didn't agree to their TOS. Is that so difficult to understand?

You are responsible for assuring that any product you order can be lawfully imported to your destination country. When ordering from Coinabul.com, the recipient(purchaser) is the legal importer of record and must comply with all laws and regulations of your destination country.

Fedex's terms at http://www.fedex.com/us/international/irc/profiles/irc_cz_profile.html say, "An export license is also required when exporting toxic commodities, steel and steel products, precious metals, raw wood and wood products." Coinabul is the exporter, right?

So, SgtSpike, isn't it pure incompetence, or maybe even malice, to put a shop online without having the care to check which countries can or can't they ship the products to?

PS: I administer a webshop and no way a customer who inserts a Country we don't ship to in his shipping address will be able to finish the order process, much less get to the payment page, because it will tell him: "Sorry, we don't ship to your country"

I'm shocked that some people don't see the theft transpiring. You speak of bitcoin as if it holds no value as a commodity and currency independent of USD. I never would've thought there'd even be a handful of people arguing on behalf of USD let alone a "court of law's" undoubtedly-twisted interpretation of bitcoin. According to those insinuations, then if the USD value of bitcoins dropped to $1, Coinabul would still owe them the spot price of gold?

No. They would owe them the 90.78 BTC still. If Coinabul's "terms" are to rip people off then those are crooked terms. Right. Let's start an international store, take bitcoins, give nothing, watch the bitcoin value go up, then decide to hold on to part of the coins. Nice 'operation' there.

I'm shocked that some people don't see the theft transpiring. You speak of bitcoin as if it holds no value as a commodity and currency independent of USD. I never would've thought there'd even be a handful of people arguing on behalf of USD let alone a "court of law's" undoubtedly-twisted interpretation of bitcoin. According to those insinuations, then if the USD value of bitcoins dropped to $1, Coinabul would still owe them the spot price of gold?

No. They would owe them the 90.78 BTC still. If Coinabul's "terms" are to rip people off then those are crooked terms. Right. Let's start an international store, take bitcoins, give nothing, watch the bitcoin value go up, then decide to hold on to part of the coins. Nice 'operation' there.

I'm not sure I agree with that.  Coinabul's policy states that their refunds will be in USD equivalent, not BTC.

Now, if you want to argue the potential for gain on other investments in the timeframe that Coinabul held on to his money (i.e., interest), I think that is a fair argument to make.  But it would be up to a court of law to determine specific damages, and it most assuredly would not follow the BTC price.

He paid paid 90+ BTC yet the product never shipped. You still don't understand this.

Stop tying BTC to USD. You want to tie it to USD now? 90.78 BTC x ~47 USD = $4267

That's the buyer's money (not the seller's money) currently valued in USD. Coinabul is sitting on that. When they couldn't provide the product, they should've refunded his 90.78 BTC with lightning-fucking-speed. Coinabul spent, took, or squandered his bitcoins? That's their responsibility.

We both know that Coinabul made a bogus argument when it said it sold the BTC and hence couldn't return it, so I don't know why you are explaining this to me.  You have not explained why my method is not "kindly", you have only explained what a business should do if your refund method is used.  I don't care one bit how the business handles the money internally.


OK, I'll explain it this way.  You say the risk is with the seller, and you say the buyer should get the refund in the original amount of BTC.  So, if the bitcoin crashes and the seller (whoops) can't ship the product, then it can, without any foul, refund the original amount of Bitcoins.  But there is no risk to the seller.  This is a contradiction.  Hence one of your two premises are incorrect.  Because the seller normally has the choice of refunding or shipping the product, the seller has no risk.  The seller may do whichever gives the most profit.

If however, the value must be refunded then the seller has all the risk, because no matter what, the seller must give to the buyer the value of the good.  If Bitcoin crashes then it is the sellers tough luck.  If Bitcoin rises then it is the sellers good luck.  There is no risk to the buyer. 


This is what is being argued.  You can't just state this in bold as if it is you argument.  (which I really think it is your argument)


I don't understand this.  Because, the value of Bitcoin increased during this transaction, the seller will make off with the profit anyway. 

On a side note: Conabul refunding $1600 for $1900, equivalent, is very rotten.  Very, very.

That's why smart retailers don't write checks their asses can't cash. They don't spend a customer's money until a safe time period has passed, as to ensure against loss

I mean no offense but I'm having a hard time following your points. You might be completely misrepresenting what I said and the situation at hand, but it's hard to decipher your conclusions. The risk is always with the Seller if he or she doesn't provide the product.

and then try to delay matters and make off with all or part of that person's BTC payment.

How is Coinabul supposed to trust 2weiX to ship the goods?  What happens if that package is "lost" - who pays for it?

No, the best way to make all parties happy is for Coinabul to refund the full amount in USD equivalent as their policy states.  Including shipping (why they didn't include shipping as part of the refund to begin with is beyond me).  The customer can then take his business directly to 2weiX and deal with him without having Coinabul as a middleman.

Considering that:
- The buyer is willing to receive the Krugerrand he bought,
- It may get Coinabul into trouble, to send Gold to a country where it is not allowed to do so, and
- 2weiX is willing to ship the coin to the buyer, and Coinabul can easily pay him the market price of the said coin,

I believe that this is a reasonable way to make all parties happy.